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Christianity Thomas on 26 Nov 2010 12:36 am

The insanity of Christianity: “Sin is innate to our human nature, and inherited from Adam”

An interesting question on Reddit:

I’ve been wondering this for a while now…

and without a sense of touch, a literal vegetable with no way of ever knowing the outside world. He dies in the hospital without ever knowing God or religion in general, not even able to know what thought is, does he still go to hell? If he literally is senseless can he still commit sin? And if not does that mean he’s sinless, or does he still have original sin? If it’s the latter, why is it justifiable to punish somebody for the transgressions they weren’t even alive to do?

TL;DR- If there is a man with literally no senses and no way of communicating with the outside world, can he still commit sin, and will he go to hell when he dies?

And then look at this answer:

Sin is innate to our human nature, and inherited from Adam, so unless you’re going to argue that such a person is not really a human, then you’re going to have to argue that this person is sinful.

However, in order to argue that such a person cannot know God, you would have to argue that knowledge of God is purely learned via external means and that external religion is what gets us right with Him. Of course, we know from scripture that this is not the case.

To which there is an obvious response:

And how close to correct would your religious beliefs be without the Bible, which is external to you?

Why would ANYONE want to believe in such a ridiculous notion? The idea that children are innately sinful and evil is absurd, yet billions believe it. Why?

193 Responses to “The insanity of Christianity: “Sin is innate to our human nature, and inherited from Adam””

  1. on 26 Nov 2010 at 2:03 pm 1.dxt said …

    Of course this would be ridiculous to you, your an atheist. You dont believe in God so you dont know the nature of sin. Of course, no one relates “sin” and “evil” to a helpless giggling new born baby in a crib but he/she does bear the effects of the fallen nature. While a new born can not cognitively commit sin nor carry out an act of sin but as he/she ages the sin nature becomes manifest in thought, word or deed. Nowhere did they “learn” to sin, it is just done by nature.

  2. on 26 Nov 2010 at 3:07 pm 2.Anti-Theist said …

    Nobody wants to believe this garbage. The cold, sad, truth of the matter is that people are born into communities occupied by authoritive figures. These figures, as well intentioned as they may be, spew this dilution amidst the impressionable minds of the communities youth who in turn use it as a crutch against the weighty reality of death and lonesomeness. We rationalists should remember that ignorance does not excuse ignorance and that from voting to murder, these people are a real threat to our society and to our children’s futures. Keep educating your children, keep secular law at the base of our countries foundation and these people will fade away as they have been since the beginning of written history.

  3. on 26 Nov 2010 at 3:47 pm 3.JohnnyP said …

    If we’ve inherited our sinful nature from Adam, where did Adam inherit it from? If God created Man, then he must’ve created Man’s sinful nature, since we’re supposedly a product of our creator’s design. Where else would sin have come from since nothing existed before God created it?

  4. on 26 Nov 2010 at 11:59 pm 4.Hieronymus Fortesque Lickspittle said …

    Agreed, and when one ponders just how this whole sin and redemption thing works the only plausible answer is “MAGIC!” God can do anything! It’s just plain dangerous and embarrassing that people believe such nonsense with so little evidence. I appreciate your posts lately, you’ve been doing a great job. Thank you.

  5. on 27 Nov 2010 at 12:00 am 5.Hieronymus Fortesque Lickspittle said …

    …and a BIG THANK YOU for not moderating your comments. Speech should be free, unless it is spam of course.

  6. on 27 Nov 2010 at 2:46 am 6.Deit said …

    “Why would ANYONE want to believe in such a ridiculous notion? The idea that children are innately sinful and evil is absurd, yet billions believe it. Why?”

    Simple really….because it is true. Ever witnessed a toddler yelling mine any time a playmate approaches his toy? Was is it learned? No, of course not it is the sinful nature inherent in human beings. The Bible is quite amazing at shedding light on the human condition but that is to be expected. Man still cannot figure it out and that ius to expected as well.

  7. on 27 Nov 2010 at 8:04 am 7.Sister Chromatid said …

    Psst… DXT, it’s “you’re an atheist” not “your an atheist”.

    And, yes we are glad not to have been indoctrinated with your magical teachings just as you are glad not to have been indoctrinated with Scientology teachings which believe that negativity is caused by “engrams” that need to be “cleared” –or with Muslim teaching which teach their kids that Jews are dirty pigs and dying for Allah is the greatest offering you can give Allah. You’re also probably glad not to be indoctrinated with Amish teachings, because they believe that God will punish them for using electricity, listening to non-religious music, and doing other “worldly” things. If you need a blood transfusion, you will be glad you aren’t a Jehovah Witness because they’ve been told they can’t be saved if they have one (and they point to a bible passage as “proof”.) I’m sure you’d also be glad that your parents weren’t into faith healing if you were a kid that needed medical attention. And I’m sure you wouldn’t want your parent to believe they were getting the same message to kill their kid that Abraham got, eh?

    Myself, I think it’s abusive to teach children these things. There is no more evidence for the horrible things you were indoctrinated to believe than there is for the horrible things others were indoctrinated to believe. But people are free to brain wash their children however they want.

    It may be too late for you, but your children have a chance to evolve beyond their parents’ superstitions, and thanks to the internet, many of them will. (Note: we no longer sacrifice virgins to volcano gods anymore and there are very few people left who think the earth is the center of the universe.)

  8. on 27 Nov 2010 at 8:25 am 8.SC said …

    You are so IN DENIAL of your need for knowing God and this blog is an evidence of that.

  9. on 27 Nov 2010 at 9:00 am 9.Severin said …

    6 Deit
    “No, of course not it is the sinful nature inherent in human beings.”
    Didn’t you say god created man?
    So, it was GOD who made humans „sinful“ (whatever it means).
    What a beast! He deliberately makes humans „sinful“ to have justification for his later killings!

    Or, if it was not god, WHAT other „forces“ made man „sinful“?
    Who/what interfered in god’s creation?
    Nature?
    Some other „bad god“ your god was unable to defeat?
    Or was your god just an incompetent, clumsy dilettante unable to do what he planned?

    It „smells“ like there is something more than god there, if you say god was not responsible for behavior of humans.
    Or, if he created man, then he IS responsible, humans are free of any responsibility.

  10. on 27 Nov 2010 at 12:48 pm 10.Xenon said …

    God created human beings perfect and without sin.

    Human beings have a free will. God wants his creation to choose to love him and obey him,

    They willfully choose to bring sin into the world.

    No nature did not begat nature. Sounds so silly to even type.

    Yes it does take God to create a universe.

    What happened to atheist knowing the Bible better than Christians?

  11. on 27 Nov 2010 at 1:51 pm 11.dxt said …

    #7 sister,

    I find it funny how you and others point out mistakes like that. Why, I dont know, its a blog. But hey, if it helps your argument by pointing that out first then so be it, right?

    It would seem you might have a slim fighting chance with the brunt of your argument, only thing is, I lived most my life with no religious influence whatsoever. Matter of fact, I rejected religion all together. Although, despite my distaste for religion, I never came to the conclusion as that of an atheist. I didn’t have enough faith to make that leap. There was no slow “indoctrination” for me, matter of fact, I have never read one page of the Bible or even owned one up untill 3 1/2 years ago. Funny thing is, I have lived most my life doing things my way when all the while God was just preparing the soil. The ultimate irony is that only through the accountability to the creator God, who fashioned human beings for moral obedience and high spiritual destiny, do we experience the results of human dignity and true freedom. Seriously, you guys are light years behind the discovery of this issue. Lol, I mean, you believe we evolved from monkeys and apes! How foolish! I should feel sorry for your kids, if you have any, that you would indoctrinate them as growing up to have them know that their life is essentially purposeless and meaningless! I would like to hear the conversation between an atheist and his son as to why impregnating every female he gets his hands on is wrong, or why cheating on your spouse is wrong! Good luck raising your kids. You can not live in a purely atheistic worldview.

  12. on 27 Nov 2010 at 1:53 pm 12.JohnnyP said …

    Xenon: “God created human beings perfect and without sin.”

    And yet Adam & Eve decide to disobey their creator. Where did the temptation/decision to sin come from if they were created “perfect and without sin”? Perfect, sinless people don’t sin or disobey, you see. Seriously, do you people ever think about what you’re reading?

  13. on 27 Nov 2010 at 2:13 pm 13.dxt said …

    #12 JonnyP,

    Let me unpack this for you jonny. If God is sovereign, and the Lamb was slain from since the foundation of the world, then how do you think this couldn’t happen? Think deeply my friend.

  14. on 27 Nov 2010 at 2:42 pm 14.JohnnyP said …

    dxt: “God is sovereign” & “the Lamb was slain from since the foundation of the world”

    Just a whole lotta typical Xian “blah blah blah”. If they can’t offer a real answer, they toss around verses or dogmatic pronouncements which of course don’t address the question, but at least makes them sound “deeply devout”.

    Okay, let’s assume I’m really dumb. Please explain it to me in terms a dummy would understand. To recap: How is it possible for a perfect being to sin?

    And thinking deeply, my friend, is what helped me see the rampant lack of logic and mind-boggling inanity in your holy (holey? haha get it?) book.

  15. on 27 Nov 2010 at 2:57 pm 15.dxt said …

    #4 lickspittle,

    It works just as the God of Scripture tells us. “Magic” has no explanitory scope as to the disciples fearless proclamation of the resurrection of Christ, despite knowing it would ultimately cost them their lives. Examine the evidence and you’ll find that it is dangerous NOT to belive the plausibility of the arguments. You would have to travel outside the boundries of reason to pass it off as “magic” and the likes. If you don’t believe it thats fine, but don’t say there is a lack of evidence for it.

  16. on 27 Nov 2010 at 3:10 pm 16.dxt said …

    #14 Johnny,

    Is that your reply “Blah,blah,blah?” I just answered your question, apparently you didn’t think deeply enough. There is nothing dogmatic about it, its quite clear actually, would you like the verses? Exercise all your Scriptural knowledge you have that seemingly we dont. So, I ask you to Scripturally put away my ignorance.

  17. on 27 Nov 2010 at 4:11 pm 17.Anti-Theist said …

    Circular evidence is a tool used only by the weak. For the sake of our intellectual debate maybe could let the “God inspired the written word of the bible therefore it must be true; God exists because it says so in the bible” crap wane just a bit.

  18. on 27 Nov 2010 at 4:26 pm 18.JohnnyP said …

    Wow, dxt. Way to avoid answering my question a second time. The famous Xian tactic of using scripture to back up scripture. Kinda like saying Coca-Cola is superior to Pepsi because Coca-Cola says so. Doesn’t the Qur’an back itself up too?

    My life’s journey has for some inexplicable reason led me to cross paths with many different Xians with many differing beliefs, so I know all the usual tricks.

    It’s not Scriptural Knowledge that’s being questioned here. It’s about plain common sense. I asked you a simple question: How is it possible for a perfect being to sin? Your answers so far: “God is sovereign”, “the Lamb was slain from since the foundation of the world” and suggesting I’m not “deep enough” to get it.

    Same old same old.

  19. on 27 Nov 2010 at 4:57 pm 19.Xenon said …

    Johnny states:

    “Where did the temptation/decision to sin come from if they were created “perfect and without sin”? Perfect, sinless people don’t sin or disobey, you see.

    The temptation came from Satan. I must say these recent studies of atheist being knowledgeable of Bible are certainly not reliable.

    Can you back up this “perfect sinless people do not disobey” statement? See you attempt to make an argument from your own presupposition which you have failed to establish as fact. Do you have a case study? I bet I can guess your retort?

    lol, you funny Johnny!

  20. on 27 Nov 2010 at 5:15 pm 20.dxt said …

    Well Johnny,

    I see you haven’t figured it out yet. What tricks? If you would know the God of Scripture like you say you do, then your question wouldn’t even come up. To put an end to this issue. God saw all that He made and said it was what?……Good. When people say “perfect” they use it loosely meaning “without sin”. If we were created to carry out perfect obedience to God, the snake would be a non-issue. This is no secrete to God. This did not catch Him by suprise, for satan can touch or tempt no one without His permission(sovereignty) He knew this hence, the lamb was slain from before the foundation of the world. It was already planned for. Does this answer your stumper.

    As for your comment about using Scripture with Scripture, do some reaserch and you will find out that the Bible is the only contender.

  21. on 27 Nov 2010 at 5:34 pm 21.Anti-Theist said …

    We really got some bona fide hics Johnny. Looks to me that your failing to articulate the message that you’d like to debate the topic of god without an over translated, grossly contradicting, bronze age comic book written by near illiterate goat herders in one of the least educated areas on the planet ( at the time (Boasting more churches than 7-11’s; the US seems to be in the lead today)) . Even the “rev” Al Sharpton admitted to Christopher Hitchens that he doesn’t believe the bible to be true.

  22. on 27 Nov 2010 at 5:44 pm 22.dxt said …

    A-T,

    Love it! Illiterate? Read it for yourself. The words are in black and white.

  23. on 27 Nov 2010 at 6:05 pm 23.Anti-Theist said …

    I have been reading the bible for much longer than three years in which time I have covered every page. Importantly, I have read from the perspective of someone defending their faith (which is not to say I ever held blind faith)and hence concluded that it can only be done through sheer tactical stubbornness. Stubbornness so beaten and defiant against obvious reality that it turns the kind of ignorance you can appreciate into the kind of stupidity that straps a bomb to itself and readies for its 72 virgins.

  24. on 27 Nov 2010 at 6:12 pm 24.dxt said …

    A-T

    What is so defiant against reality that I need to know about? Instuct me, since you have read it longer. Show me what you have discovered.

  25. on 27 Nov 2010 at 6:33 pm 25.Severin said …

    11 Xenon
    “God created human beings perfect and without sin.
    Human beings have a free will. God wants his creation to choose to love him and obey him, They willfully choose to bring sin into the world.”

    If god created humans perfect and without sin, why do they sin? Did he bungle something?
    If god gave free will to humans, did he know they will sin?
    If he knew they will sin, why did he give them free will?
    If he gave them free will, how could he have expected them to chose HIM to love, not someone else. What special sort of “free will” was it? “Shit will”?

    If he did not give them free will, who did?

    If he gave them “shit will” and they began to worship someone else but god, who was stronger than god to change the “shit will” of god’s creation?

    If he gave them “shit will” expecting them not to sin, but they sinned, then:
    a) God was a clumsy diletant; he did not know what he was doing, or
    b) Some other “forces” (Some other gods?) changed free will of humans. Those forces are obviously not under god’s control, so god is not one and allmighty

    There is c), too, but you don’t want to hear it.

  26. on 27 Nov 2010 at 6:38 pm 26.Anti-Theist said …

    You won’t open the door until you want to and I will not fool myself into thinking otherwise. I’m sure you’re an intelligent fellow, you seem to be one of the more intelligent theist around here at least, and I sure without an afterlife to save you from death you’d probably fall into a possibly irreversible, near fatal depression. If though I were to draw you a map I sure I would first lead you through the exorbitantly obvious plagiarisms of Christianity which would crush any rational persons beliefs that their faith was original or that their bible was inspired by god; since obviously it was inspired by other non Christian religions. Then I would send you through the inquisition in the hope that you’d see that the loving, enlightening word of god did not bring Christianity to power but that the tortuous blood thirsty political conquests of its leaders did, murdering and raping their way into the lives of other, often time older religions, hysterically frightened primates. Maybe lastly I would encourage you to question why you were chosen to know the correct path; out of 10,000 religions what made you and your programmers, besides of course location and affluence, so lucky as to stumble upon the right way. But alas those attempts would all be fruitless wouldn’t they. Everyone except for you and your denomination will burn in hell wont they. The arrogance alone of the saved who will watch everyone else burn in hell from their throne in heaven is enough to reject reality. I really have no faith in you to learn.

  27. on 27 Nov 2010 at 6:41 pm 27.Xenon said …

    lol, What? Huh?

    Sevein you are a jewel!

    He is a good one. If my aunt had a package she would be my uncle.

  28. on 27 Nov 2010 at 7:10 pm 28.Severin said …

    16 dxt
    The question was extremely simple, and you did NOT answer anything but “blah blah”.

    Why don’t you just answer this one single question, with one single answer:

    How can a perfect god create an imperfect creature?

    To make you easier:
    a) because he messed up
    b) because he wanted so

    There are ABSOLUTELY NO OTHER POSSIBILITIES (in logic, it is called “tertius non datur”, or “principium exclusii tertii sive medii”), so all you need to do is to mark a) or b). There is NO c), and you can not mark both a) and b), except to make fool of yourself (again!).

    Easy, clear, short, uncomplicated!

  29. on 27 Nov 2010 at 7:16 pm 29.Boogie Man said …

    A kid comes out of his room and tells his parents that a monster is in his room. The parents tell their kid that there is no such thing as monsters. The kid says he heard or saw the monster and asked his parents to prove there is no monster in there. The parents go in the room and look all over to sure the kid that there is no monster around. The kid says that he can only see or hear it. The parents then explain that there is no chance a monster can exist and that he probably heard something else or saw a shadow or light through the window. The kid then says to prove it. What else can the parents say? Now relate that to religion and/or God(s).

    Religion and/or God(s) are the biggest hoax of all time. You do agree that something has to be the biggest hoax of all time, right? Just because a lot of people believe it, doesn’t make it true. Most of the time it probably is the case, but sometimes it isn’t. A great example is that everyone at one point in time thought the earth was flat and the center of the universe. That was because they couldn’t see outside of their perception at the time. There are many reasons religions and/or God(s) have been invented.

  30. on 27 Nov 2010 at 7:37 pm 30.Anti-Theist said …

    In this case I’m afraid the parents tell the young child that the monster is real. They know that the child’s mind is young and impressionable but that’s okay, for the child’s mind is also virtually helpless; this is true tenfold when subjugated by the parents whom the child depends on for survival. So from the starting line the child is made to fear death and made to be ashamed of himself with the only remedy being to worship unconditionally an all powerful master who will take utter responsibility by dictating how the child makes all decisions throughout his life. If there’s any doubt of these tall tales in the child’s mind they are dashed with threats of eternal hell. That is how it happened…right Xenon. No, I’m sure you’d have us believe the holy spirit approached you in a dream or some other Harry Ptoter’esk story.

  31. on 27 Nov 2010 at 7:43 pm 31.dxt said …

    #28 Severin,

    You didn’t read far enough down the page. I answered it in #20.

  32. on 27 Nov 2010 at 7:54 pm 32.Severin said …

    19 Xenon
    “The temptation came from Satan.“

    I could not wait someone to mention „Satan“!
    So, dear Xenon, let’s start:
    God made a perfec human, gave them „shit will“ to adore ONLY him, and to eat enything BUT fruits from a certain tree (we can not call it “free will”, can we?).

    Everything was perfect and idyllic.
    Then Satan came and spoiled god’s work!
    Now:
    Did god KNOW „Satan“ will spoil humans?
    a) yes
    b) no
    In case god knew that „Satan“ will interfere:
    1) God was UNABLE to stop Satan to spoil his creation, in which case he was not „one and allmighty“. Some other „forces“ existed, obviously, which god was unable to fight!
    2) God DID NOT WANT to stop him, in which case he either was a masochist, or idiot. Why would anyone create something perfect, knowing it will be ruined by some bullshitter?
    Of course, there is the 3rd question: If god wasn’t able to predict Satan’s bad deeds, he could kill Satan and fix the damage, but he DID NOT! Or COULD NOT?

    In case god DID NOT KNOW it, who, the hell was he? Someone able to „pop – create“ the universe, but unable to see Satan as a threat? An „allmighty“? An „allknwing“? Obviously not!

    So, with or without „Satan“, the logic is the same: either god was not what you thought, or (maybe), he does not exist at all.

    In both cases you worship only a picture of what YOU THINK IS GOD.

  33. on 27 Nov 2010 at 8:01 pm 33.JohnnyP said …

    Sigh. Looks like I’m not going to get an actual answer (other then what ultimately translates as “because the bible says so”). No surprise there, Christians are so predictable.

  34. on 27 Nov 2010 at 8:07 pm 34.JohnnyP said …

    Severin, I don’t think god’s as all-knowing and all-seeing as christians like to think he is. Afterall, he thought a worldwide flood would put an end to sin and look how that turned out. It didn’t occur to him to destroy satan instead.

  35. on 27 Nov 2010 at 8:08 pm 35.Anti-Theist said …

    Hear you will be hard pressed to find any theists capable of arguing outside the cozy, warm confines of the bible. At the risk of undermining your abilities, may I suggest that truly brilliant debates are as easy to find as putting one and one together. Like I said in an earlier post, the geniuses of our time, religious or not, do not use scripture to debate the existence of god, morality, or religions usefulness in modern society.

  36. on 27 Nov 2010 at 8:13 pm 36.dxt said …

    #26 A-T,

    “You won’t open the door until you want to and I will not fool myself into thinking otherwise. I’m sure you’re an intelligent fellow, you seem to be one of the more intelligent theist around here at least, and I sure without an afterlife to save you from death you’d probably fall into a possibly irreversible, near fatal depression. If though I were to draw you a map I sure I would first lead you through the exorbitantly obvious plagiarisms of Christianity which would crush any rational persons beliefs that their faith was original or that their bible was inspired by god; since obviously it was inspired by other non Christian religions.”

    I will just concentrate on this part of your post for now since you mention it first assuming its importance. Have you ever thought about what you state here as to having any rational explanation as to how or why Christianity got its beginnings? Despite heavy persecution which would cost the lives of the individuals proclaiming it? How do you explain devout Jews that live and breath in their practices to a belief in a monotheistic God that would embrace a completly pagan belief in polytheistic mythology? How do you explain the disciples hiding from the jewish authorities in the upper room after the crucifiction of Christ who suddenly, 3 days later, put their lives on the line to testify to the risen Christ? Would they do this knowing that their belief was just a copycat religion? Or would it make more sense that they actually saw and spoke and touched and ate with the messiah who God raised from the dead?

    These are only a few of the questions you need to hurdle before you can come to a “copycat” conclusion.

  37. on 27 Nov 2010 at 8:18 pm 37.dxt said …

    #34 Johnny,

    Have you really read the Scriptures? Honestly, you can tell me. You tend to thrive off your false dilemmas you create.

  38. on 27 Nov 2010 at 8:19 pm 38.Severin said …

    27 Xenon
    My “ifs” were related to simple questions, and you “uncle’s package” can only go to your ount.

    There are 2 possible answers to my questions, which EXCLUDE each other, and an “if” is necessary between them, because “yesno” does not exist: either “yes” or “no”, and IF “yes” is true, THEN “no” can not be true, and v.v.!
    Pure elementary logic!

    So, to avoid “ifs”, because you are not familiar with elementary logic, let’s do it simpler way:

    Why did god create imperfect humans:
    a) because he messed up (unwillingly, he made mistake, he did not know what was he doing)
    b) because he wanted so

    To avoid “ifs” you don’t understand, please just mark a) or b)!
    I hope that you see, at least, thet there is no 3rd possibility.
    It is not so difficult when we put it this way, is it?

  39. on 27 Nov 2010 at 8:28 pm 39.Severin said …

    Xenon,
    The same with Satan!
    There are ONLY 2 possibilities:
    a) God knew for satan
    b) God did not know for satan
    Again (not expecting you to understand, but, who knows…):

    IF god KNEW for Stana (a = true), THEN it is impossible that he did NOT know fo satan, so: b = false
    IF god DID NOT KNOW FOR satan (b = true), THEN it is impossible that he KNEW FOR SATAN, so: a = false

    Simple, but in order to make it impler for you, you just mark a or b!

    Because YOU involved satan to the debate, it would be nice from you to tell us did god, or did he not, know for satan.

  40. on 27 Nov 2010 at 8:31 pm 40.dxt said …

    #29 boogie man,

    BRAVO boogie man! We have yet another story contrived and concluded by false dichotomy! Good job boogie man! No monsters = No God. Genius!!!

  41. on 27 Nov 2010 at 8:32 pm 41.Anti-Theist said …

    I will not play inside the bible with you dxt. Your stories are unproven, self fulfilling, and self gratifying. We know Christianity got its beginnings from primitive, hysterical, fearing people who made human sacrifices in the wake of poor crops, adverse weather, and poverty. You alone are proof enough that brainwashed will die for unsubstantiated causes. Unless of course you’re a showman and would not die defending your god/ unless you’re a showman and would not kill if god spoke to you and ordered you to kill for him; which I suspect you are. The rest of your drabble comes directly from scripture which is not evidence nor valid in any respectable debate. It’s all you have. It faith. I kind of actually respect you for holding on so tightly using nothing but the bible; because that is real faith, that is “belief that is not based on proof.” But I won’t play in your shit as I wouldn’t expect you to play in mine.

  42. on 27 Nov 2010 at 8:35 pm 42.JohnnyP said …

    dxt, sure I’ve read the scriptures. I’ve also read Alice In Wonderland, Peter Pan, and countless other fairy tales. What’s your point? That reading is believing?

  43. on 27 Nov 2010 at 8:45 pm 43.dxt said …

    Johnny, My point was stated in my post.

    A-T, I just posed a few questions for you to ponder and rationally explain them away to me, thats all. You must have some sort of evidence that led you astray. Im asking for you to share it with me.

  44. on 27 Nov 2010 at 8:49 pm 44.Severin said …

    31 dxt
    I see that you are avoiding to give simple answers to simple questions.
    I do not think that you don’t understand questions, or that you are unable to give answers.
    You are clever enough to see that, if you directly and honestly answer them, your imaginarry world will collapse.
    So you are “zig-zagging” to avoid to answer.
    Don’t believe it?

    TRY!
    Just answer simple questions (at least for yourself):

    a) God messed up and (unwillingly) created imperfect humans (yes, or no)
    b) God made imperfect humans deliberately (yes, or no)

    There are NO other possibilities! There are no “yesno”, “but”, “you know”, “however”, “I think”…

    Either he messed up, or he did it willingly?!

  45. on 27 Nov 2010 at 9:03 pm 45.Anti-Theist said …

    Religion, the bible, and hell are all tools used by primates to assume authority and currency over and through crowds utilizing mob mentality. I strayed when I decided to require evidence. As would anybody with the courage to ask why?. If everyone rationalized like educated adults we would probably end up in the company of atheists and deists whom would have to agree to disagree, but you with your bible and talking snakes, and raping angels, and thrones in heaven are just too easy. Never mind the fact that you impose and discriminate against perfect strangers based on these either lunatic at best, or enslaving at worst ideologies. Look what your kind has done to poor Xenon, who’s obviously leaned so hard on the crutch of religion that he neglected to develop otherwise.

  46. on 27 Nov 2010 at 9:15 pm 46.Anti-Theist said …

    I think we can agree that people will see what they want and that that path will lead to why do they see what they see. Speaking for myself, I see what I see because I don’t want or need to be told what to do or how to do it morally. I’ve come to grips with the fact that when I die I’m going in the ground; that was no small feat and shouldn’t be taken for less than earth shaking. I’ve accepted that I’m alone save for my family and friends whom when they die are gone; that realization hit pretty hard too. And that’s me being vulnerable and honest with you. You should give yourself the same respect and ask with intellectual honesty; why do I see what I see. If its cause the scriptures say so then you my friend are easily amused; maybe you sound easily amused and I’m just not picking up on it.

  47. on 27 Nov 2010 at 9:15 pm 47.dxt said …

    A-T,

    You still didn’t share any evidence or give any reason to rationally explain away my questions. Don’t pass me off as an individual who doesn’t inquire in rational explanations. I have given you a few and im asking for you to share yours. If you can’t, then I would ask you not to discriminate against those who can.

  48. on 27 Nov 2010 at 9:20 pm 48.dxt said …

    A-T,

    You spoke volumes in your last post. At least you admit it, I will give you that.

  49. on 27 Nov 2010 at 9:25 pm 49.Anti-Theist said …

    It’s all in vain. Those people were persecuted because they were that indoctrinated. No evidence needed. Same goes for these people drinking the cool aid; wouldn’t you agree that their deaths don’t prove the existence of their fly by night religions. Surly you know what I’m talking about. If that’s not your million dollar question then please ask it again in small words that a dummy like me can understand. I anticipate moving on from this “answer my question” back and forth.

  50. on 27 Nov 2010 at 9:32 pm 50.Xenon said …

    Anti-matter

    Its Kool Aid not Cool Aid, lol.

    I have an idea. Try reading some books by people other than Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris. Your mind is a mess and your commons sense is out to lunch. Just trying to help you out.

  51. on 27 Nov 2010 at 9:39 pm 51.JohnnyP said …

    Anti-Theist, Severin

    You’re trying to reason with people who believe in arks full of animals, parting seas, and talking snakes. Seriously, do you think they have the ability to think logically? I gave up trying to get any kind of rational answer to my question.

  52. on 27 Nov 2010 at 9:46 pm 52.Anti-Theist said …

    Please thoroughly explain why you profess to tell me my mind is messy along with examples of what I said that imply that I lack common sense. Also please list some books more authoritive than your canon. I do appreciate my spelling being correcting by such a “Kool Aid” connoisseur; in your company I’m embarrassed to admit that I didn’t have a packet to ensure my spelling was up to your refined expectations. Trust that if I need to correctly spell “Purple Drank,” I be looking to you.

  53. on 27 Nov 2010 at 9:48 pm 53.JohnnyP said …

    Anti-Theist, you made an excellent point in post #49 with your allusion to Jonestown. Xenon’s inspired response was to side step that point entirely and proceed to merely correct your use of “Cool Aid” and suggest you read other books. See what your up against here?

  54. on 27 Nov 2010 at 10:27 pm 54.Severin said …

    51 JohnnyP
    No, I do not epect rational answers from them!
    They ususally don’t give any answers, but, ocasionally long senseless tyrades and still longer cites from Bible.
    They do not recognize simple logic, they do not use any, they see only what they want to see, and if you pose them a question like this:
    “Did god messed up or did it deliberately?”,
    they answer “Yes” (or don’t answer at all).

    But someone else, young and unexperianced, could read this blog, and start using his own brain in looking for answers, instead to end as a brainwashed idiot.

    That is why I am fighting against those brainwashed… gentlemen.

  55. on 28 Nov 2010 at 12:19 am 55.Xenon said …

    John John why do you keep posting? Us poor half-wits are not worthy! lol

    Anti-matter,

    You along with John John and Sevy are a mess because you actually believe you posses truth and can prove it. The vast majority of masses before us and the masses today believe in a creator by a huge margin. This includes all educational levels, colors and creeds. Now, you can argue against a particular God if you like, but insisting there in no God is simply laughable.

    You really don’t even need a book (although they are plenty), just wake up and smell the coffee. I do understand, I went through a God denial in my lat teens and early 20s but I grew up.

    Get off the Cool Aid.

  56. on 28 Nov 2010 at 12:21 am 56.Xenon said …

    Young and inexperienced bloggers, please read post #54!

    Wow!

  57. on 28 Nov 2010 at 12:50 am 57.dxt said …

    #49 A-T,

    “It’s all in vain. Those people were persecuted because they were that indoctrinated. No evidence needed.”

    If this is your rational explanation to my questions and this suits you just fine to rest eternity on it, then I will freely drop the question.

    Your conclusion in #46, while honest, is a tough pill to swallow. You’ll pay a high price for pride my friend.

  58. on 28 Nov 2010 at 1:19 am 58.dxt said …

    #51 Johnny,

    You didn’t like my answer to your question in post 20? If I didn’t, please clarify where I failed.

  59. on 28 Nov 2010 at 8:15 am 59.Severin said …

    55 xENON
    “The vast majority of masses before us and the masses today believe in a creator by a huge margin.”

    What did you say (or was it Horatio?): appeal to majority fallacy!

    Vast mayority of masses believed once the earth was flat. Then, prety suddenly (compared to thousands of years of human history), they ALL changed their minds, BUT they started believing that sun was orbiting earth.
    Then they ALL changed their mind again, almost instantly: they suddenly did not believe any more that sun orbits earth!

    You see how quickly and efficiently it runs?
    Today “vast masses” believe something, tomorrow they don’t!
    They are clever: they accept arguments!

    The same with religions!
    Maybe 4% atheists on earth (more, but let’s not be capptious!) seem to be small number, BUT, compared to population, and to the fact there were 0% atheists on earth only 100 years ago, and compared to thousand of years of human history, it is A LOT!
    And rapidly growing! VERY RAPIDLY, parallel to spreading of education.

  60. on 28 Nov 2010 at 1:13 pm 60.JohnnyP said …

    Xenon Xenon, why do you come to an atheist blog?

    To save our poor sinning souls? If so, you’re doing a really crappy job because all you’re doing is convincing everyone that Xians are truly irrational, warped thinkers.

    Wonder how Jesus feels about you turning people even more off of him?

  61. on 28 Nov 2010 at 2:28 pm 61.Anti-Theist said …

    Despite being scraped to pieces across Christian racks, atheism has flourished and now boasts the number four spot of major beliefs of the world with approximately 850 million people. From 1990 to the year 2000 the secular nonreligious population grew at least 110%. The Vatican and other powerful interests have seen the damage done to Christianity, not by atheism but by an evolving society with more and more access to modern education, and decided to battle it with…drum role; more and more evangelicals. Today’s Christianity aint you daddies religion. They pulled it out of your homes and into football sized billion dollar stadiums to dazzle away your ever more secularist mindset. Little by little there losing ground. Though it is just a business now, with the sheep pumping millions annually in the coffers, soon it will be nothing more than a cash grab.

  62. on 28 Nov 2010 at 6:05 pm 62.dxt said …

    A-T,

    Interesting you bring up these statistics, although I dont know that atheism is “boast” worthy. You also seem to liken Christianity to the modern health, wealth, prosperity teachings alongside the word-faith movement. You are right by saying “Today’s Christianity aint you daddies religion”, in fact, its not Christianity at all. Deception and false teachings will wax worse and worse capturing the multitudes in their webs of deceit. For Scripture says

    (2Th 2:10) and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
    (2Th 2:11) For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
    (2Th 2:12) in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

  63. on 28 Nov 2010 at 9:13 pm 63.Anti-Theist said …

    The writers of the bible would stone us all at the gates; surly you would not be spared. You can freely call yourself whatever you want (thanks to secularists), but you do not follow the laws of the bible and therefore are not Christian. The false prophets who followed Jesus teach that (very literally) after being saved real Christians don’t sin; you do, after being saved anything prayed for is given to real Christians; not you, after being saved real Christians are impervious to poison and temptation; not you. You have been fooled, luckily for you all they can do is take your money and scare you into a hysterical fit of moral activity. Though I guess they also take away all of your good deeds and accomplishments by attributing them to god. What a rip off.

  64. on 28 Nov 2010 at 10:49 pm 64.dxt said …

    A-T,

    Sadly enough, this is the typical gross misrepresentation of the Bible. I had expected more from you as one who claims to have read it several times, yet I see no evidence of exegesis or the presence of any theology. Its sad indeed.

  65. on 28 Nov 2010 at 11:03 pm 65.dxt said …

    A-T,

    For what its worth, I don’t know your history but it might be helpful to question your early influences. False teachings abound, all in the name of Christianity.

  66. on 29 Nov 2010 at 12:34 am 66.A Romantic said …

    #63

    Anti-Theist could you provide some supporting writings to support these standards you present?

  67. on 29 Nov 2010 at 12:40 am 67.A Romantic said …

    #61

    Anti-Theist can you provide the link that supports you statistical analysis?

    Very typical “secular nonrelgious population” includes theists that do not support a organized religions. This being the case you would need to provide data that breaks out this group to get an accurate assessment of atheist growth.

    We will take a look at that when you provide the link.

    Thanks

  68. on 29 Nov 2010 at 1:47 am 68.Anti-Theist said …

    These scriptures teach that Jesus came to save people from their sins, not in their sins. They assert that Christians don’t sin. They can’t. And if they should sin, they are no longer saved. After all what is the difference between a saved and an unsaved person besides the fact that one lives like they always have in sin and disobedience while the other has a changed life; a life in god.
    1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
    2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
    3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
    4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
    6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
    7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
    8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
    9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
    11For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
    12Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous.
    13Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
    14We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
    15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
    16Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
    17But whoso hath this world’s good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
    18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
    19And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
    20For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
    21Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
    22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
    23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
    24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

  69. on 29 Nov 2010 at 1:50 am 69.MrQ said …

    Don’t want to steal Anti-Theist’s thunder, but view this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMLLJNgX5dA

    Looks like Gallup says that the percentage of Christians in America has declined and continues to do so. Anyone surprised?

    And for present numbers on world-wide non-believers, just do some basic research. Looks to be about 850 million. (and hopefully growing)

    It is a no brainer (pun intended) that education reduces an individuals need to believe. As is witnessed by the lack of belief in deities by leading scientific researchers and academics. And there’s also Sweden, a country with zero illiteracy, which is chock full of non-believers.

  70. on 29 Nov 2010 at 2:01 am 70.Anti-Theist said …

    This site certainly is not biased toward atheism. I of coarse reserve the right to assume you, not wanting to agree with a filthy atheist, will find fault with this or any other source you do not invoke yourself.

    hear.http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.htm

  71. on 29 Nov 2010 at 2:44 am 71.dxt said …

    #68 A-T,

    I thought you were not going to “play” in the Scriptures? Again, where is the exegesis?

  72. on 29 Nov 2010 at 2:58 am 72.A Romantic said …

    Anti-Theist

    Where does those passages make the claim that real Christians do not sin? Maybe you could put this in context for me. v2 seems to be a future endeavor? Who is this presented to and what is the writer attempting to portray? Could this be part of a bigger picture?

    Your link is dead as far as I can ascertain. Again, non-religious tends to be linked with atheist/agnostic on most surveys I have personally witnessed. Non-religious are typically theist. Maybe you have a working link?

  73. on 29 Nov 2010 at 3:00 am 73.A Romantic said …

    Could this be the link you were looking for Anti-Theist?

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm

  74. on 29 Nov 2010 at 2:19 pm 74.rael said …

    An inverse correlation between religiosity and intelligence has been found by 39 studies carried out between 1927 and 2002, according to an article in Mensa Magazine. These findings broadly agree with a 1958 statistical meta-analysis by Professor Michael Argyle of the University of Oxford. He analyzed seven research studies that had investigated correlation between attitude to religion and measured intelligence among school and college students from the U.S. Although a clear negative correlation was found, the analysis did not identify causality but noted that factors such as authoritarian family background and social class may also have played a par

  75. on 29 Nov 2010 at 3:41 pm 75.Severin said …

    dxt
    Statistics is your new passion?

    You avoid essential problem that was imposed by YOU: YOU claimed something, then, after you got some questions you don’t like to see, you just neglected them and passed to statistics (and to endlessly citing Bible again)!
    Very tipical! We saw such “debating” already!

    So:
    Did god create evil humans because he wanted so, or by mistake?
    Is stoning good or bad?
    Is the Bible “crystal clear” or it calls for hard work to be understood?
    Who is authorized to do this “hard work”, and who is authorized to explain god’s words?

    YOU inniciated those issues, YOU made some claims, now YOU owe us your answers.
    It is not fair to just run away into a mouse hole, and to continue “debating” as that nothing happened!
    Something happened, which obligates you, because you caused it: you got questions you are not able to answer!

  76. on 29 Nov 2010 at 4:06 pm 76.rael said …

    It is difficult to quantify the number of atheists in the world. Respondents to religious-belief polls may define “atheism” differently or draw different distinctions between atheism, non-religious beliefs, and non-theistic religious and spiritual beliefs. A 2005 survey published in Encyclopædia Britannica found that the non-religious made up about 11.9% of the world’s population, and atheists about 2.3%. This figure did not include those who follow atheistic religions, such as some Buddhists A 2006 poll published in the Financial Times gives rates for the United States and five European countries. It found that Americans are more likely than Europeans to report belief in any form of god or supreme being (73%). Of the European adults surveyed, Italians are the most likely to express this belief (62%) and the French the least likely (27%). In France, 32% declared themselves atheists, and an additional 32% declared themselves agnostic. An official European Union survey provides corresponding figures: 18% of the EU population do not believe in a god; 27% affirm the existence of some “spirit or life force”, while 52% affirm belief in a specific god. The proportion of believers rises to 65% among those who had left school by age 15

  77. on 29 Nov 2010 at 5:07 pm 77.JohnnyP said …

    Why the debate on statistics all of a sudden? What does it matter which group is bigger, believers or non-believers? Are we saying the majority (whichever it is) is correct in their belief system just because of their larger numbers? I think it’s more important *why* people believe, not *that* they believe.

    Atheists don’t believe for one or more of the following reasons: a)They can’t accept the scriptures as truth because of the sheer inanity and irrationality of the writings; b)They were former believers who have become disillusioned by their beliefs for whatever reason;

    The religious believe for one or more of the following reasons: a)They grew up with it and it hasn’t occurred to them just yet to actually stop and think about what exactly they’re believing; b)It allows them to shift focus away from their own sins/guilt by focusing on the sins/guilt of others (the hypocritical christian is pretty well a tired cliche these days); c)It makes life (and death) less scary; d)They feel small, weak and insignificant and a belief in a personal deity empowers them and makes them feel “special”;

    I myself traversed through many (if not all) of the above points in both categories, as have many I know, so I do get it.

  78. on 29 Nov 2010 at 5:11 pm 78.Anti-Theist said …

    # 71
    Apologies, I said I would not recognize scripture as a tool in the debate and I accept your correction. I’m also unable to respect any exegesis on the grounds that the bible is not of supernatural or godly inspiration. In my view reading and adhering to the bible is akin to obeying the wishes of 2000 year deceased nomadic.

  79. on 29 Nov 2010 at 6:30 pm 79.A Romantic said …

    Ant-Theist,

    By what authority and/or grounds do you make the conclusion the Bible is not supernatural or even inspired by God?

  80. on 29 Nov 2010 at 7:03 pm 80.Anti-Theist said …

    The same of course as the authority you use, knowingly or not, to make any contradictory conclusions in your life.Do not forget that rooted in reality or not, what we believe is true truth in all of our individual lives; just because purple unicorns don’t exist in my world, obviously doesn’t mean they’re not literally and solely affecting yours.

  81. on 29 Nov 2010 at 9:00 pm 81.A Romantic said …

    You sate the same authority I use. What authority would this be?

  82. on 29 Nov 2010 at 9:25 pm 82.Anti-Theist said …

    Please don’t be thick… It is an obvious fact that when beings within existence do anything from getting out of bed in the morning to murdering another being that it is done under the authority given to one’s self by one’s self. Even if you are told to do something under the threat of death, the burden of responsibility still falls on you; the choice of whether or not to accept the command.

  83. on 30 Nov 2010 at 5:05 pm 83.A Romatic said …

    Anti_theist so you are saying that human beings are beings of free-will?

  84. on 30 Nov 2010 at 6:33 pm 84.Severin said …

    83 A Romantic
    “Anti_theist so you are saying that human beings are beings of free-will?”

    Why don’t you ask dxt?
    He claimed god gave free will to humans.

  85. on 30 Nov 2010 at 7:00 pm 85.Severin said …

    83 A Romantic
    Xenon claimed too that god gave free will to humans.

    Can you theists agree about something, or will you estblish a new religion?

  86. on 01 Dec 2010 at 1:58 am 86.dxt said …

    Severin,

    I never mentioned anything pertaining to “free will”. That is a touchy subject and don’t think I had any contributions. I will apologize if you can prove me wrong.

  87. on 01 Dec 2010 at 9:53 am 87.Severin said …

    86 dxt
    “I never mentioned anything pertaining to “free will”. That is a touchy subject and don’t think I had any contributions.“

    You did not, Xenon did, and some other guy did.

    But I found in some of your posts something I missed before:
    I cite your words from your post #75 in „Christianity try so hard to prove their god did it all…“:

    „“What I have to say and what my opinion is, doesn’t matter. Its what God says that matters. No, no arguments of my own.”

    So, what are you doing on these pages if you don’t have anything to say?

    It would be interesting to hear from you what sort of “touchy subject” human free will is:
    Either god did, or did not give free will to humans, tertius non datur.
    If he gave them free will, he had no right to interfere, and especially not to punish them for their free will, unless he was a monster (“I will give you free will, then I will kill you if you use it!”).

    If he did not give them free will, then HE is responsible for all human “sins” and crimes (because they have no free will, everything is god’s will and god’s plan).
    Tertius non datur!

    Or, maybe god never existed, and all that story is a big BS!?
    That COULD be a rational explanation that excludes all paradoxes your religion implies!
    Exclude god, and all paradoxes dissapear! Sounds rational!

    But, of course, You HAVE NOTHING TO SAY, as you personally stated (see above), and you better don’t!

    Let your god solve his problems, and let us debate with people who have something to say!

  88. on 01 Dec 2010 at 2:01 pm 88.JohnnyP said …

    Severin, if I may…

    The idea of free will is that it’s a gift, or privilege, from god that puts the choice in each individual’s hands as to whether we choose good or evil (to put it broadly). Xians like to proclaim that without that choice, we would just be god’s puppets. On paper that sounds good, but once you start examining it deeper it opens up a whole new can of theological worms. For instance, if nothing is impossible for god, couldn’t he create a world where sin is non-existent but humans still have that free will…?

  89. on 01 Dec 2010 at 4:57 pm 89.Rostam said …

    A Romatic,

    I think AT is saying that every man is his own God.

    God did create a world with sin. If God did not allow man to make choices than how could he have a free will? Man makes choices but God certainly is aware of choices man will make.

    Reminds me of Job questioning God and God’s plan/motives and the great lesson Job received. You might look into that. It might help you understand.

    God already put a plan in place and it will come to fruition in His time.

  90. on 01 Dec 2010 at 5:02 pm 90.Severin said …

    88 JP
    “For instance, if nothing is impossible for god, couldn’t he create a world where sin is non-existent but humans still have that free will…?”

    He could (if he existed and was allmighty), but he obviously did not. He wanted to play games with people: I will give you free will, then I will kill you if you use it.

    So, biblical god was either an idiot, who did not know what and how to “create” (free will: yes or no?), or a lunatic, who “only waited” people to make “sins”, to injoy in punishing them crually (including extermination of whole human race!).

    An allmighty god could have done anything, and he did the worse imaginable.
    As I said: without god everything “sits” on its place!

    All paradoxes dissapear!

  91. on 01 Dec 2010 at 5:33 pm 91.MrQ said …

    Man makes choices but God certainly is aware of choices man will make.

    If a future event/actio is known by god then we are pre-destined to follow the course which god has laid out for us. If god knows and sees all, free will is moot. God knows exactly how we will all behave, free will does not exist. We are indeed puppets in a universal popularity contest.
    I have a great idea. Why don’t we all pray to satan and get him to “see the light”. Then we can have a planet without biblical sin. Once he “sees the light”, the devil will acknowledge gods omnipotentness and he will return to heaven and become a normal subservient angel, fully realizing that his battle cannot be won. Pray hard, christians.

  92. on 01 Dec 2010 at 7:49 pm 92.Rostam said …

    “We are indeed puppets in a universal popularity contest.”

    I hate that for you. I am not. God may know what I will do but it is my choice. I had a choice to type this out or not. I choose to do so but felt completely free to just ignore your post.

    I am free here and for eternity!

  93. on 01 Dec 2010 at 8:08 pm 93.MrQ said …

    I choose to do so but felt completely free to just ignore your post.

    If the outcome of your actions is known to anyone/anything, then you are forced to go down a road unbeknownst to you, but known to the other entity. Your path is known to god, you cannot change the path, free will does not exist.

    I am free here and for eternity!

    Hope your living up to god’s standards..oops, that’s right, he/it already knows which direction your eternity will be spent.

  94. on 01 Dec 2010 at 8:14 pm 94.JohnnyP said …

    Rostam, I don’t think you quite thought through what Q was saying in #71.

    If god knows everything before it happens, then it must happen exactly so or god would be wrong, you see. Yes, you had the choice to type your post or ignore it, but god knew ahead of time which choice you’d make. Therefore, you had to make that choice or god would’ve been mistaken. To you, however, it *feels* like a choice because you don’t know the future as god does.

    See how convoluted it all is?

  95. on 01 Dec 2010 at 9:23 pm 95.Rostam said …

    “See how convoluted it all is?”

    Not at all. Take a gander at Is 55:8. If God thought, acted and behaved like a man then I would be concerned. You mistakenly mold God into a man with great power and nothing is further from the truth.

    Scientist are predicting global climate changes and telling us what will happen. Does nature now not have a free will to act?

  96. on 01 Dec 2010 at 9:25 pm 96.Severin said …

    94 JP
    Pure, clear and nice logic!

  97. on 01 Dec 2010 at 9:53 pm 97.JohnnyP said …

    Rostam, seriously, I don’t think you’re quite grasping the concept here.

    The logic is simple: either god is all-knowing or he is not. There’s no third choice. If he is, then he cannot be wrong or mistaken. Therefore, our fates must follow their respective paths exactly the way god has “seen” it ahead of time, or else god would be wrong. That means free will is really just an illusion (for us). There’s no way around that logic.

    If god is not all-knowing, then he’s just been winging it all this time. And a lot of the OT stories actually do make it sound like he is doing just that.

    What’s all this “If God thought, acted and behaved like a man…” got to do with the concept of his knowing the future? And, since you brought it, the bible has plenty of examples of god being angry, jealous, vengeful, sad, violent…just like a man.

  98. on 01 Dec 2010 at 10:01 pm 98.MrQ said …

    Scientist are predicting global climate changes and telling us what will happen. Does nature now not have a free will to act?

    Scientist are using historic data and present day human activities to TRY and predict where global climates are heading. Show me a weather man who knows how tomorrow will unfold and I’ll show you a true god.

    ..mold God into a man with great power

    I don’t mold god into anything. I just try and understand how you claim that we can have free will and, at the same time, claim that the actions and outcome of our lives is known (to god).

  99. on 01 Dec 2010 at 10:29 pm 99.Rostam said …

    “I don’t mold god into anything.”

    Really? The you and Johnny better get on the same page. He believes that since God knows what will happen we have no free will. I must say, if I have no free will God is faking it pretty good.

    The fact God is presented in anthropomorphic symbolism does not mean God is a man. Anyhow, you are atheist so I doubt this has much meaning.

  100. on 01 Dec 2010 at 10:42 pm 100.MrQ said …

    you and Johnny better get on the same page.

    How are Johnny and my views different from each other? I think he’s saying basically the same thing as I am. But maybe you can point out how they’re different POV.

    I must say, if I have no free will God is faking it pretty good.

    Not sure what you’re saying here. Are you suggesting that god knows/sees all? Or not?

  101. on 01 Dec 2010 at 10:45 pm 101.JohnnyP said …

    Rostam, your replies just keep skirting around the logic of the dilemma. But then christians are well known for doing that, aren’t they.

    You have yet to explain how man can have free will if everything, from beginning to end, is already said and done in god’s mind.

    DXT did the same thing earlier when I asked him how it’s possible that god created human beings perfect and sinless and yet “perfect, sinless” Adam decides to disobey god. Which means he couldn’t have been perfect (since his ability to sin negates his perfection). Finally, after several posts, he responded in essence “well, they didn’t *really* mean perfect…” Uh huh.

    I’d have more respect for any Xian who had the guts to simply say “I don’t know”.

  102. on 01 Dec 2010 at 10:52 pm 102.Rostam said …

    “You have yet to explain how man can have free will if everything, from beginning to end, is already said and done in god’s mind.”

    No, we don’t skirt the issue, you just cannot understand. If a man knew everything I would do, he would need to pull my strings because he cannot know everything. That would not be free will.

    IF GOD, knows what I will do it is because He is omniscient and knows the CHOICE I will make. It is really quite simple. God is not a man and is omniscient. He doesn’t make my choices, He knows what choices I will make.

    Sleep on it Johnny, maybe it will clear up for you.

  103. on 01 Dec 2010 at 11:05 pm 103.MrQ said …

    He doesn’t make my choices, He knows what choices I will make.

    So, in advance, he knows of the busload of xtians that will go off the cliff? Knew of the Haiti disaster? 9/11? Knew of the skinless baby that will be born in agony?
    All could have been averted (by god). But maybe there’s a lesson there, eh? Like the allknowing all loving god you worship doesn’t care.

  104. on 01 Dec 2010 at 11:10 pm 104.JohnnyP said …

    Ah yes! “You just cannot understand”. Another typical Xian response. I was waiting for that, actually.

    Your last paragraph (not the “Sleep on it Johnny”, the one before it) is exactly what I’ve been saying the whole time: “[God] is omniscient and knows the CHOICE I will make”.

    But you don’t seem to be getting the dilemma that that creates (or if you are getting it, you’re coyly refusing to address it): If god knows our choices, before we even make them, then all our fates must already be sealed, before we’re even born in fact. How are you not getting that??

    Let’s try it another way: Are you guilty now of something you’re yet to commit? If not, why? You can’t make a different choice because that would mean god’s knowledge of the future is faulty.

  105. on 02 Dec 2010 at 2:49 am 105.Rostam said …

    “If god knows our choices, before we even make them, then all our fates must already be sealed, before we’re even born in fact. How are you not getting that??”

    I get it. Don’t see the problem. Fate is not sealed just because you action is known. DO you not see that? You WILL make a decision. You WILL make it freely and God knows what it will be. Simple enough.

  106. on 02 Dec 2010 at 3:02 am 106.dxt said …

    #101 Johnny,

    Honestly, do we need to argue your question again? I didn’t say “well, they didn’t *really* mean perfect”. Who is “they?” I explained what the text says and for some reason, you didn’t like the answer and yet you continue with your question hoping to catch someone in your snare. I commented on “what people say” meaning, todays Christians.

  107. on 02 Dec 2010 at 7:59 am 107.Severin said …

    102 Rostam
    “IF GOD, knows what I will do it is because He is omniscient and knows the CHOICE I will make.”

    He, then, must have known Hitler’s “choices”, and did not stop him using his “omnipotency”.

    Well, wht to expect of a monster who did not stop himself in distroying lives?

    Don’t you see how paradoxal you are?

  108. on 02 Dec 2010 at 8:04 am 108.Severin said …

    106 dxt
    Didn’t you say you have nothing to say?

  109. on 02 Dec 2010 at 12:28 pm 109.JohnnyP said …

    Rostam,

    It just occurred to me that you may be under the mistaken assumption that I’m suggesting god is making our choices for us or somehow controlling our thoughts and actions to follow some divine trajectory. If that’s so, then I need to clarify that I believe no such thing. God does not make our choices, but his knowledge of our future actions predetermines the fulfillment of those actions. It can be no other way!

    And if he knows everything in advance, who will be saved/who will be damned, what’s the point of it all? Can we alter what god already knows of the future? Do you think we can?

    You say you get, but don’t see the problem. If you don’t see the problem, then you don’t get. The logic is impenetrable.

    I’m not asking you to agree with it, just to acknowledge (even just quietly to yourself) that it’s a very real conundrum. Or would that shake your faith too much?

  110. on 02 Dec 2010 at 12:39 pm 110.JohnnyP said …

    dxt,

    No, we don’t need to argue my question again. It didn’t do any good the first time, so why would I think I’d get a real answer this time? I was just pointing out how Xians deal with the holes in biblical logic.

    I actually laughed out loud at your “hoping to catch someone in [my] snare” line. I’m an atheist visiting an atheist blog. Why are YOU here? Perhaps you’re the one hoping to do the ensnaring? Hoping to show us wretched sinners The Way, like Jesus gives you brownie points or something. You and your ilk seem to think you can accomplish this by tossing a little scripture around. Like I’m suddenly going to say “Hey! That’s totally illogical and contradictory! But I’m going to believe it anyway so I can go to heaven!”. You know, just like you did once.

  111. on 02 Dec 2010 at 2:00 pm 111.dxt said …

    Johnny,

    “No, we don’t need to argue my question again. It didn’t do any good the first time, so why would I think I’d get a real answer this time? I was just pointing out how Xians deal with the holes in biblical logic.”

    Holes in Biblical logic? Show me where this “hole” is Jonny? I want some verses from Scripture by which you draw the conclusion for your question? You don’t “feel” it was answered adequately because it is a bogus question. Asking bogus questions is an attempt to “snare” individuals. Im glad that amuses you.

  112. on 02 Dec 2010 at 2:54 pm 112.JohnnyP said …

    dxt, how is “Can we alter what god already knows of the future?” a bogus question? Because you can’t answer it? Can anyone?

    I really mean no disrespect to you, Rostam or anyone else and I apologize if I come across that way. It’s just exasperating when conversing with Xians who can’t see the absurdity of backing the bible up with the bible. As in “Verse A is true because Verse B says so”. If I don’t accept the scriptures as god’s word in the first place, why do christians always think they can use those same scriptures to convince me I’m wrong? How absurd is that?

    I admit that it would actually be nice to believe in an all-powerful, supreme being who gives a sh*t about us all and can “save us”. But the bible is really all we have to go on as far as learning the nature of this god and what he wants from us in return for our salvation (I love how Xians see that as his unconditional love). And because I’m a rigidly logical thinker, I cannot get around the astounding lack of logic within the scriptures enough to buy into it. Sorry. Can one force himself to believe in something he sincerely believes is not true? Would god as you know him understand that? Or does he want me to pretend to believe anyway in spite of my immense skepticism? Would insincere faith buy me a ticket to salvation?

  113. on 02 Dec 2010 at 3:01 pm 113.Anonymous said …

    I turn my back for two seconds and mob falls into emotional turmoil; if no permanent feeling damage has occurred, maybe we can refrain from suggesting that others not speak. Though quite delusional, DXT, if treated in kind debates with an etiquette not easily found around here.

  114. on 02 Dec 2010 at 3:01 pm 114.Anti-Theist said …

    I turn my back for two seconds and mob falls into emotional turmoil; if no permanent feeling damage has occurred, maybe we can refrain from suggesting that others not speak. Though quite delusional, DXT, if treated in kind debates with an etiquette not easily found around here.

  115. on 02 Dec 2010 at 3:13 pm 115.Anti-Theist said …

    1. In my opinion, influenced on what I’ve read and understand about the theory and the characteristics of the Christian god, Pascal’s Wager does not work; you might fool me as many of you do but you will not be hood winking anyone with the power to convict you of thought crimes. For those of you who aren’t readily aware; this post relates to the end of #112.

  116. on 02 Dec 2010 at 3:28 pm 116.dxt said …

    Johnny,

    My post was in reference to the earlier question you posed of the “perfect” dilemma. You do recall that one right?

  117. on 02 Dec 2010 at 3:35 pm 117.Anti-Theist said …

    It is said better by Hitchens, but the thought of an all knowing, jealous god who convicts us of thought crimes, creates us sick and demands we be healthy, dictates whom and how we may love, and will continue to dominate and abuse us even after our deaths all while ordering our constant praise and worship is depressing and quite frankly masochistic.

  118. on 02 Dec 2010 at 3:49 pm 118.Severin said …

    111 DXT
    “Holes in Biblical logic?”

    Talking snakes, light before sun, making man from dust, god’s order for incestous mating, big flood, which escape any available logic (for example: some 3x more water was necessary to flood the earth up to highest peak, which is Mt. Everest, than present on earth; I can easyly calculate it for you, if you wish), and hundreds of such imbecilisms.

    Of course, I do NOT expect YOU to accept anything of this, because your god was “omnipotent”. He was able to do “hocus pocus” (except when necessary to really help someone, like amputees, or hungry babies – he prefered to kill them).
    I can not find any relevant arguments against such “logic”, so, be well and believe what you want, and recall, from time to time, that YOU said you had NOTHING TO SAY.

    I have!

  119. on 02 Dec 2010 at 3:53 pm 119.JohnnyP said …

    I do indeed recall it, dxt. I brought it up, didn’t I? “How can a perfect being be capable of imperfection”, to paraphrase. I would ask you to enlighten me as to why that’s a bogus question (is there such a thing?), but it would just likely mean another ride on the merry-go-round with you.

    Since you specified THAT as being the bogus question you were referring to, are you then saying (by implication) that my question “Can we alter what god already knows of the future?” is NOT bogus? Can you answer it?

  120. on 02 Dec 2010 at 3:56 pm 120.Severin said …

    111 dxt
    How did Noah get kangaroos to his boat?

  121. on 02 Dec 2010 at 4:12 pm 121.rael said …

    #120

    must’ve been magic!!!

    isn’t it always? lol

  122. on 02 Dec 2010 at 4:20 pm 122.Severin said …

    111 dxt
    If you accept that dinos ever existed, WHEN was it?

    How dod Noah put them all on his ship, a pair of each of some 330 species, some of which were 70 meters long and 20 meters high?
    How did he prevent them to just eat everything else on the boat, including the boat itself?

    The definition of “species” is that those are groups of animals incapable of interbreeding and giving fertile offspring.
    So, to save all species, Noah should have put on the boat (beside dinos), also some 8 pairs of bears, some 60 pairs of kangaroos, 2 pairs of elephants, 2 pairs of hypos, 330 pairs of dinos, 264 pairs of monkeys, 2 pairs of pandas, 100 pairs of lemurs, etc…
    … and the boat did not sink!

    Yes, I know: god “solved” it somehow, he just didn’t want us to know how, so he wouldn’t explain it.

  123. on 02 Dec 2010 at 4:21 pm 123.Anti-Theist said …

    I would venture to say that in the foreground of space and time, perfection has no room to begat additional perfection. If an entity or consciousness is perfect then there would be nothing to, and no reason to create anything additional; perfection is absolute.

  124. on 02 Dec 2010 at 4:22 pm 124.Severin said …

    111 dxt
    Lemurs are from Madagascar!

    You asked for “holes”?

  125. on 02 Dec 2010 at 4:35 pm 125.Rostam said …

    “Don’t you see how paradoxal you are?”

    No, Hitler had a free will. God is not Santa or a Jeannie in a bottle. I see you have part of the social justice programs to long. Wait on someone else to bail you out.

    Why didn’t the France, England, Belgium, Sweden for that matter the entire EU stop him? Well, the EU is full of cowards but nevertheless rather than blaming God look in the mirror at your own species. Do you call your EU friends monsters? Why must the US always rescue you guys?

    No paradox, just lack of accountability.

  126. on 02 Dec 2010 at 4:37 pm 126.Rostam said …

    How did Lemurs get out of the primordial soup. If they were in the soup, they could just swim to the ark.

    LOL

  127. on 02 Dec 2010 at 4:56 pm 127.Anti-Theist said …

    Rostam, you lost all coherency throughout your last couple posts; either your lacking the patience to communicate in a way we all can understand or your blood sugar has fallen dangerously low. Please explain your posts as I’m sure I would appreciate them.

  128. on 02 Dec 2010 at 5:08 pm 128.JohnnyP said …

    Anti-Theist

    RE: #123…That’s actually a very profound way of putting it.

    If one was perfect (i.e. complete) would he need/desire anything else outside of himself? Why did a perfect god feel the need/desire to create humans? To love him? To worship him? Could those not be seen as selfish needs/desires? Why does god need/desire love? Why does he need/desire to be worshiped?

    So many questions, so little time (and space)…

  129. on 02 Dec 2010 at 5:36 pm 129.Rostam said …

    No AT, you need to study #107 as Sev goes off on another tangent about Hitler. You see, that is why I have quote marks around the first part of my post. Get it? Try to keep up.

    You atheist really need to attempt to say on track. You have a tendency to digress.

  130. on 02 Dec 2010 at 6:02 pm 130.Anti-Theist said …

    Put another way, and in no way requiring affirmation from practitioners of blind faith, is the same question; how could something that loves absolutely assemble a cast where 66% of its population suffer an eternity of unimaginable tortures?, given the foresight of omnipotence. Though I don’t always appreciate Sevrins tact, or lack thereof, I do believe this as an issue of inconsistency.

  131. on 02 Dec 2010 at 6:42 pm 131.JohnnyP said …

    Rostam, (or dxt or Xenon, for that matter)

    So, in your vastly superior wisdom (and with god whispering to you, of course) why don’t you take a crack at the question posed earlier? “Can we alter what god already knows of the future?”

    To put it another way, if god “knows” I’m going to hell because of my lack of belief, is there no hope for my salvation? Am I able to do anything differently to change that outcome? If I did indeed Change My Ways, then wouldn’t that mean god was wrong about my eternal damnation? But then, he would know I would Change My Ways and thus be saved, wouldn’t he, so his knowledge of my damnation wouldn’t have existed in the first place. So if he knows that now before I even do, then I don’t actually have to consciously do a thing because it will turn out the way god has seen it to be. Or will it?

    Dizzying isn’t it. No wonder it takes faith.

  132. on 02 Dec 2010 at 6:52 pm 132.Anti-Theist said …

    Imagine a child reading a book. Once the book has been read the observer knows all that is within said book. You may now name the book “Time and Space”. The child who read the book cannot change the story. You may now name the child “god”. My attention moves to the mind capable of writing the horror story we live in.

  133. on 02 Dec 2010 at 8:53 pm 133.Rostam said …

    “Can we alter what god already knows of the future?”

    Define the word know. You think God has a brain and retains information, maybe forgets or has a need to learn? Again, this is God not a man Johnny.

    I just thought about your question and started laughing. I am not as arrogant enough to pretend to know how God can know the future and if it is possible to be altered.

    Sorry it makes you dizzy. I find it fascinating.

  134. on 02 Dec 2010 at 9:25 pm 134.Severin said …

    126 Rostam
    “How did Lemurs get out of the primordial soup.”

    It was not my question. Answer to this question is already well known.

    How did they come to Noah’s boat?
    The same for kangoroos (60 species), etc.

  135. on 02 Dec 2010 at 9:43 pm 135.Anti-Theist said …

    Rostam, you would murder for your god would you not.

  136. on 02 Dec 2010 at 10:21 pm 136.JohnnyP said …

    Hey Rostam, at least that’s an honest answer (#133), if not just a bit of a cop out. Afterall, you’re now essentially saying you thought about my question, found you couldn’t answer it, and so just laughed it off. And that’s supposed to give you credibility around here?

  137. on 02 Dec 2010 at 10:35 pm 137.Rostam said …

    NO, now I am laughing off your observation – LOL_. I answered your question multiple times. You just don’t like the answer.

    A cop out is you believing in Primordial soup creatures and providing no proof.

    AT,

    No more than you would murder a Christian.

  138. on 02 Dec 2010 at 10:46 pm 138.JohnnyP said …

    Sorry, no back pedaling allowed. Go back and read your third paragraph in #133. Read it carefully. Sorry, my observation was bang on. “LOL”

    Your answers are unacceptable because you insist on using scripture to back up your statements. As I said in #112 it’s absurd to use scripture to back up scripture, especially when you’re debating with someone who does not accept the bible as the word of god in the first place. It would be like me trying to convince you of evolution by merely quoting the writings of Darwin. How far would that get me? Get it now?

  139. on 02 Dec 2010 at 11:45 pm 139.Rostam said …

    “Your answers are unacceptable because you insist on using scripture to back up your statements.”

    HA HA, you are precious. Yeah, answering science with a science book is unacceptable as well. Imagine, using the Bible to answer questions about God. Of course I never quoted any Scripture but hey who is keeping score, right? But listen, I could use Augustine, Tertullian or Origen’s works on God if you like??? Wow, where do you guys come from!

    Wipe the soup off your face JP. Do you have any more goodies?

    So in promoting Darwin’s theory who would you use as a source. Hux?

  140. on 03 Dec 2010 at 12:19 am 140.JohnnyP said …

    Rostam: “Wow, where do you guys come from!”

    Might I pose the same question to you, and add why?

    Exactly why does a christian come to an atheist blog? What is your goal exactly? To enlighten? To spread christian love? To show us the Error Of Our Ways? Do you envision Jesus beside you, cheering you on, patting you on the back and saying “Well done, my child”?

    Do you wag your figurative tail after posting one of your inane responses, look up and breathlessly ask “Did I do good Jesus? Did I? Huh? I sure showed them sinners didn’t I Jesus! Huh? Huh?”

    Now there’s something to chuckle at.

  141. on 03 Dec 2010 at 12:43 am 141.MrQ said …

    Rostam

    So in promoting Darwin’s theory who would you use as a source.

    Might I try using Collins, a source which you have previously brought up…. Or is that not good enough for you?

    Johnny and AT,
    When the extended family (Rostam, Horatio, Gas Bag Xenon, et al) get backed into a corner they play their trump card, primordial soup. Witness entries 126/137/139 from above (and numerous other submissions from the family on other threads).

    Their arguments, if flowcharted, always end in “can’t be so, I don’t believe in primordial soup”. They confuse different branches of science and will bail out because they don’t accept nor understand abiogenesis.

  142. on 03 Dec 2010 at 2:40 am 142.dxt said …

    #131 Johnny,

    “Rostam, (or dxt or Xenon, for that matter)

    So, in your vastly superior wisdom (and with god whispering to you, of course)”

    Whispering????

    “why don’t you take a crack at the question posed earlier? “Can we alter what god already knows of the future?”

    No.

    Psa 103:19 The LORD has established His throne in the heavens And His sovereignty rules over all.

    “To put it another way, if god “knows” I’m going to hell because of my lack of belief, is there no hope for my salvation?”

    If God already knows your going to spend eternity in hell then no, there is no hope for your salvation.

    “Am I able to do anything differently to change that outcome?”

    Joh 3:27 John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given him from heaven.

    “If I did indeed Change My Ways, then wouldn’t that mean god was wrong about my eternal damnation?”

    Joh 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

    “But then, he would know I would Change My Ways and thus be saved, wouldn’t he, so his knowledge of my damnation wouldn’t have existed in the first place. So if he knows that now before I even do, then I don’t actually have to consciously do a thing because it will turn out the way god has seen it to be. Or will it?”

    Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

    Rev 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

    Its not really “dizzying” at all, its Grace, which is most wonderfully unimaginable!

  143. on 03 Dec 2010 at 2:49 am 143.dxt said …

    #135 A-T,

    What kind of question is that???

  144. on 03 Dec 2010 at 3:53 am 144.Rostam said …

    What can I say Johnny? I come for fun.
    No, I assure you this blog could not begin to change my mind.

    Mr Q,

    So you now have proof of abiogenesis? Love to see it. Nice theory like spontaneous generation once was but it will probably end up on a scrap hear as well.

    What I love about atheist is they claim God is faith but things like abiogenesis are somehow….fact?

    Now if we cannot use the Bible, Augustine, Origen, etc for God why could you use Collins for evolution? Not even sure why Johnny brings up evolution, but he did.

  145. on 03 Dec 2010 at 6:58 am 145.MrQ said …

    Rostam

    So you now have proof of abiogenesis?

    My point was that no matter what discussion you and the extended family partake, you always end up questioning where/how life began. Abiogenesis is not the same as evolution, has nothing to do with Noah’s Ark but somehow your clan always boils things down to “Only god could spark life”.

    I am just wondering if it’s possible for you to clarify your position on the age of the Earth? billions of years old? Or less than 10,000 years? Do you agree with Collins on evolution or not? These issues have nothing to do with life origins so there’s no need to bring that up. No need to, as you folks say, use “fallacy of digression”.

    OK? And use whatever book and source you find necessary.

  146. on 03 Dec 2010 at 8:31 am 146.Severin said …

    142 dxt
    ““why don’t you take a crack at the question posed earlier? “Can we alter what god already knows of the future?”

    No.
    So, we finally learned that you think that humans have no free will!
    God knows everything, and people act exactly according to god’s “knowing everything in future”, they CAN NOT CHANGE IT.
    Humans are, acording to that, absolutely not responsible for their deeds. God is!

    Now go to Rostam and Xenon to discuss this issue and lieve us alone.

  147. on 03 Dec 2010 at 8:56 am 147.Severin said …

    142 dxt
    “If God already knows your going to spend eternity in hell then no, there is no hope for your salvation.”

    So, you can’t do ANYTHING to change god’s will? No matter how much you kiss his ass, what he “knows” about your destiny, is practically already done, and there is no way you can change it.
    As there is no way for me/you to know what god already planned for me/you, we can spend our lives any way we please, it will not change his will?!!?
    In that case, why would I/you care whether god exists or not?
    Why do YOU care about god, who already scheduled your life, and you can not do anything to change it?

  148. on 03 Dec 2010 at 9:38 am 148.Severin said …

    111 dxt
    You asked for “holes” in Biblical logic.
    You got them, and you just neglected them.
    Is that the way you are debating?

    Or, maybe you don’t take the big flood story illogical?
    Kangaroos, lemurs, polar bears, dinosaurus? hypos, elephants, zebras, tens of species of gazelas,…koalas, armadillos, monkeys…

    Yes, what about mammoths? Sabre tigers…?

    Birds/insects could not fly 40 days over the water, without any food and without a place to rest.
    Birds, insects, worms, reptiles (hundreds of thousands of species!)? ALL of them were killed in the BF, and lost for ever, unless:
    - Noah took them on the ark
    - God created a new world

    Why don’t you answer?

  149. on 03 Dec 2010 at 12:11 pm 149.JohnnyP said …

    Rostam: “What can I say Johnny? I come for fun.”

    Yeah, I guess the Christian blogs must not be all that exciting.

    “Isn’t Jesus wonderful? Praise God!”
    “Yes, praise Jesus!”
    “He really is the way, the truth, and light!”
    “O praise his blessed name!”
    “Hallelujah, he appeared to me in an oil stain in my driveway once!”
    “Oh isn’t Jesus wonderful! Praise God!”
    “Amen!”
    Hallelujah! Amen!”
    (Speaking in tongues:) “Zubb Diddle Ubba Oofram!”

    Where do I sign up!

    Hey, you’re right! It IS more fun here! And a whole lot more intellectually stimulating. I don’t blame you.

  150. on 03 Dec 2010 at 12:25 pm 150.JohnnyP said …

    dxt, I appreciate your thoughtful response.

    But, in admitting that we can’t change what god already sees for us, then what’s the point of it all? It sounds like god picks and chooses who will be saved (from your quotes anyway). Which brings us full circle to the question of whether our free will makes any difference at all.

    “Its Grace, which is most wonderfully unimaginable!”. Sure, if you’re one of the chosen ones. And you sound like you believe you are. But how can you be sure? Do you believe you’re “pure of heart”?

  151. on 03 Dec 2010 at 12:43 pm 151.dxt said …

    #146 Severin,

    “Humans are, acording to that, absolutely not responsible for their deeds. God is!”

    Your in a dangerous state of mind thinking that. Again Severin, I said nothing about free will. You have been constantly assuming things I have never said. Make no mistake, you are responsible for the choices you make in life. You do have a free will, but it is limited. Limited by only being able to choose sin and choose TO sin. Only God can give the spiritually dead, a spiritual resurrection. If you harden your heart against Him He withdraws His grace and ultimately leaves you to your depraved mind for which you are fully responsible for. There, there is my comment on free will severin. I would suggest refraining from further searing your own conscience to God if at all possible at 68 years old.

  152. on 03 Dec 2010 at 2:23 pm 152.Burebista said …

    Johnny P,

    “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

  153. on 03 Dec 2010 at 3:57 pm 153.JohnnyP said …

    Burebista: “…whoever believes in him…”

    What if one can’t compel oneself to believe in him? (see #112, 3rd paragraph).

  154. on 03 Dec 2010 at 4:13 pm 154.JohnnyP said …

    dxt,

    I get what you’re saying, which basically amounts to “Just because god sees your sins in advance, doesn’t make you any less guilty of them”. And that actually makes perfect sense…if you stop thinking about it there. If you start digging at it, though, it bubbles with contradiction when combined with the concept of free will. But we’ve been there already, haven’t we.

    Actually, a lot of the OT stories seem to suggest god is not omniscient. Just sayin’…

  155. on 03 Dec 2010 at 5:14 pm 155.Burebista said …

    “Would insincere faith buy me a ticket to salvation?”

    No, of course not. You are not the only one to be logically inclined. If you chose to reject Christ as many have even in his day you seal your fate. If you sincerely pray and ask for faith, He will help you.

    I have been and electrical engineer for over 25 years. I understand that what Christ did defies logic. You must get to a point (and you do with age) where not everything is b&w and logical.

  156. on 03 Dec 2010 at 5:37 pm 156.Anonymous said …

    Burebista, a couple questions…

    How does one “sincerely pray and ask for faith” when one does not believe? How does one pray for faith when faith is what’s required for prayer to work?

    Are you saying you choose to belief in spite of the holes in logic you appear to acknowledge? If so, why? Just in case? Is that a good enough reason for god?

  157. on 03 Dec 2010 at 5:40 pm 157.JohnnyP said …

    That was me asking in #156, BTW. Don’t know why it posted as anonymous.

  158. on 03 Dec 2010 at 6:09 pm 158.Burebista said …

    Johnny,

    You are asking me to give you a complete explanation of how amazing the Grand Canyon is to one who has never seen it.

    A couple of points. You can pray and read the Bible and ask God for faith to believe. I have been there and so have many others. God draws men unto Himself not me. It is your choice and I will not argue the point.

    The world is full of illogical paradoxes. The beautiful lady I am married to for 25 years is one example. We are nothing alike and if you asked me to explain why I love her it would be difficult to put in words but I do. It is not logical

    If you spend you life believing everything is logical and b&w you will miss a lot.

  159. on 04 Dec 2010 at 3:20 am 159.dxt said …

    #154 Johnny,

    I don’t see any contradictions there. God chooses who will be saved, and you are fully responsible for rejecting His Gospel. Your free will is limited by your sinful nature.

    Rom 9:12 it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.”
    Rom 9:13 Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”
    Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
    Rom 9:15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.”
    Rom 9:16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
    Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.”
    Rom 9:18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
    Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”
    Rom 9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?
    Rom 9:21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
    Rom 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
    Rom 9:23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
    Rom 9:24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

    Think hard on these verses Johnny, because you can go one of two ways here, either be humbled by them, or cause you further emnity against Him. God is God and we are His creation. Untill you understand that, you wont get any closer. It requires a humble nature to realize that. God gives grace to the humble and opposes the proud(James 4:6).

  160. on 04 Dec 2010 at 7:28 am 160.Severin said …

    142 dxt
    “If God already knows your going to spend eternity in hell then no, there is no hope for your salvation.”

    155 Burebista
    “If you sincerely pray and ask for faith, He will help you.”

    Is it the same god you believe in?

  161. on 04 Dec 2010 at 1:47 pm 161.dxt said …

    Severin,

    The fact that God is sovereign, in no way requires idleness.

  162. on 04 Dec 2010 at 2:42 pm 162.Anti-Theist said …

    #137

    I would never murder a Christian or anyone else, or anything else; I am quite the softy when it comes to snatching away something as awe inspiring and beautiful, though quite abundant, as life. If god came to me and commanded that I murder someone I would know it was a dilution and that I needed medical care immediately. I know many of you don’t have the intellectual honesty to answer this question, but I’d like to offer it up for those brave enough to skirt it or devout enough to answer it. If god spoke to you in the same way and fashion that he spoke to Abraham would you murder a complete stranger for him?

  163. on 04 Dec 2010 at 3:04 pm 163.Anti-Theist said …

    142
    DXT, your fate is then sealed; an eternity in hellfire or at Christ’s right hand has been seen and nothing can be done to change it. So then why all the games and rules and “accept him as your savior or you’ll burn in hell” propaganda. It all seems quite redundant, or in my case futile.

  164. on 04 Dec 2010 at 4:40 pm 164.Dutch said …

    “would you murder a complete stranger for him?”

    God would not ask us to murder. It violates His laws and character. Abraham was willing but God stopped Him. God is perfect, holy and without sin. It is arrogance that leads one to believe they know more than God. If God ever did come with such a request I know it would be worked out in the end as justice and good.

  165. on 04 Dec 2010 at 4:45 pm 165.dxt said …

    A-T,

    Nothing is futile. Do you propose to be equal to God? Do you have equal foreknowledge? Are you the Alpha and Omega? Are there no atheists whose hardened hearts have not been melted by His grace? Salvation comes through the Gospel of Jesus Christ for those competent enough to understand it. Saving faith comes through submission of that message. You can’t share the Gospel without without first giving the law.

  166. on 04 Dec 2010 at 5:38 pm 166.Anti-Theist said …

    Dutch, overall, that sounds like a yes; making you a very dangerous person. I will assume you have read the bible and of all of the murderous tendencies of god, I will also assume you forgot the blood filled stories of the old testament when you said “It violates His laws and character”. I commend your honesty and courage but you, nor should any true believer be permitted to walk free. You are the people murdering your children because god told you to. You are the people murdering doctors for after god approached you in a dream. And you justify it by saying “If God ever did come with such a request I know it would be worked out in the end as justice and good.” You are truly sick, and anything but alone.

    As for DXT though dangerously delusional like your brother Dutch, I found some of your arguments to be worth pursuing. I now grow tired of your perpetual use of scripture as evidence and stubborn refusal to acknowledge that anyone but a Christian can understand said primitive texts. To put my morality where my mouth is; I do, in my existence, propose that I am equal to your imaginary deity; I can express foreknowledge just as he has allegedly done, only with better precision; I am the alpha and the omega; No atheist heart has ever been melted by his grace, and salvation comes from the exercising the meaning of life (which has nothing to do with the mythical figure Jesus Christ).

  167. on 04 Dec 2010 at 5:41 pm 167.MrQ said …

    Dutch

    It violates His laws and character. Abraham was willing but God stopped Him.

    I imagine family dinners after that episode were a whole lot of fun. The son was probably thinking that next time he saw Abraham setting the table, he should be extra vigilant when the knives come out.

    BTW, do you think it strange that the god which was so visually evident and talkative back then has gone into hiding today? Hmmm…

  168. on 04 Dec 2010 at 7:04 pm 168.Dutch said …

    “you, nor should any true believer be permitted to walk free.”

    Its called the USSR. How many did you murder?

    “You are the people murdering your children because god told you to”

    Who, where? The only ones murdering children are atheist in China. You are the dangerous ones.

    “You are the people murdering doctors for after god approached you in a dream”

    I think 2-3 in 20 years (never ina dream)and I have never once heard a Christian defend it. You are a walking fallacy.
    _____________________

    Christians take note. Don’t ever let these guys ever get any real power. China will be our fate.

  169. on 04 Dec 2010 at 7:32 pm 169.Horatio said …

    168
    “China will be our fate.”

    That’s not news Dutch. Anytime a bunch of atheist gain power cleansing of the masses is the order of the day.

    It is enlightening to see how they claim Christians are the murderers.

  170. on 04 Dec 2010 at 7:35 pm 170.Severin said …

    111 dxt
    You asked to get some “holes” in the Bible, now you don’t know what to say!?
    The BF (or GF) story is totally impossible, no matter from which point you start.
    THis story is total idiocy, a shame for any intelligent being, especially for god:
    - No. of animals placed on some 10,000 sq m (they would stand on each other’s heads)
    - Time available to collect them all
    - Means available to collect them (kangaroos, armadillos, monkeys, hypos, lemurs, all Amazonian frogs, snakes, insects, birds, polar bears….)
    - You would need some 2.8 x more water than exists on earth to cover „all high mountains under the whole heaven“
    - To „cover all the high mountains under the whole heaven…“ in 40 days, you need some 220 metric tons of water a day PER 1 SQ METER (2.56 l/sec or 9,219 l/min PER ONLY ONE SQ METER!). The wtaer should rise 221 m/d or 9.2 m/h or 15 cm/min

    Etc, etc…

    If this biblical story is a BS, tell us reasons to take seriously any other Biblical story.

  171. on 04 Dec 2010 at 7:44 pm 171.MrQ said …

    Hor blurts:

    Anytime a bunch of atheist gain power cleansing of the masses is the order of the day.

    Kind of like what’s happening in Sweden, eh?

  172. on 04 Dec 2010 at 7:48 pm 172.Anti-Theist said …

    You have already proven yourself to be susceptible to dilution and influence; then, like all your brethren, you slink about your pathetic existence praising and worshiping an entity, conjured up by power hungry blood thirsty voyeurs, and waiting for, and frankly wishing for, Armageddon. You, who are judging the masses, imagining how sated watching others burn in hell will make you while sitting next to your god in your promised afterlife, are irresponsibly ignorant of the reasons behind the Holocaust or Stalinism. When you’re not whining you are the ones bathing in the blood of the innocents whom refuse to conform to your laughably childish plagiarisms. You are boring with your played rebuttals and it is no one’s responsibility to educate you but your own. Please remember that when assuming you can slither away while other do research to back their points.

    Take note Christians
    You cannot stem the progress of evolution which is knowledge; education is your only threat and atheists destroy you in court protecting secular law every day. You, like your radical Islamist counterparts, are an endangered group hysterically clinging to a dated ideology.

  173. on 04 Dec 2010 at 8:01 pm 173.Dutch said …

    Yes Horatio what you say is true but I truly pity them. I have seen atheist kids in the schools and their dismal depressed outlook on life. It is very saddening so I don’t get angry with them, I only pity them and try to see the light of Christ. Two young ladies have come to know Christ this year already.

    Sweden Mr Q? I lived there for a number of years. You had better check again. Atheist have no power and they deal harshly with any religious intolerance, like murdering girls as they do in China……

  174. on 04 Dec 2010 at 8:05 pm 174.Severin said …

    169 Horatio
    “Anytime a bunch of atheist gain power cleansing of the masses is the order of the day.”

    Yes, we saw it in history of human race! First atheists took power on beginning of 20th century (thanks to support of believers!).
    There were no cleansing of the masses before that (or, oops, maybe there were some, but who did them?).

  175. on 04 Dec 2010 at 8:45 pm 175.MrQ said …

    Really Dutch? You lived in Sweden. I was born there.
    http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_atheist.html
    The link, check it out.

    BTW, You’re really good with logic. On one hand you say:

    God would not ask us to murder.

    Yet you say that is exactly what your god ordered Abraham to do. So, what is it? Will god order murder or not. You better do a more comprehensive check of your bible on that one, you might be surprised. Perhaps dxt can quote you some scripture if you’re still operating in a fog.

  176. on 04 Dec 2010 at 9:00 pm 176.Anti-Theist said …

    If you believe in a deity and base your entire life around pleasing and obeying him you are a very dangerous person. That people, is a hugely unappreciated fact. I have friends who are Christians whom act and live decent lives; I know that if their god, or if they thought their god, compelled them to murder me they would have no choice but to oblige him. That’s the thing about really believing; you really believe. Look all around us; people are being killed still, every day in the name of religion; Christians just like Muslims want you to believe that they are different, but they are not.

  177. on 04 Dec 2010 at 10:15 pm 177.Dutch said …

    Yes I have lived there. It is NOT run by atheist.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Sweden

    Let me shared some facts.

    9 out of 10 have a Christian burial
    23% answered that “they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force”
    7 out of 10 children are christened in the Church of Sweden.
    73% belong to the Church of Sweden

    Nice try but you are wrong. Having lived there for 10 years, these stats are accurate. Why don’t you claim China, USSR, Romania and Cuba? They were/are as down on Christians as you. Swedes are very open to religion even though they are selfish isolationist. Sweden is not. Never had a Swede be so fearful of a Christian murdering him/her!
    ________________________

    Q & Theist,

    Don’t live with so much fear. God is not asking us to murder you I promise. Its OK.

    Atheist like to pretend they are different than the communist regimes but they are not.

    I make this statement above but then say no, I don’t want to lower myself to the same foolishness I read above.

  178. on 04 Dec 2010 at 10:38 pm 178.MrQ said …

    Dutch,
    Guess what? I am a good ol’ Lutheran boy, christened in a Swedish church. My dad even told me that since I have been christened, I am Lutheran (Never did go for confirmation). On a pie chart or other collection of statistical data I would show up as a xtian. I don’t make a big deal out of government labels but as we both know, I am not a very good xtian since I don’t believe in any deity. So I guess I am an atheist.

    I must laugh at the statistic :

    9 out of 10 have a Christian burial

    My dad, the xtian, had himself cremated and all he wanted was a small gathering at his gravesite. No sermon, no preacher, just a handful of people saying good-bye.

    I am not down on xtians. Practice your beliefs as much as you want…. just keep the insanity out of the schools which my children attend.

    I guess if I am a communist then you must be aligned with Hitler, a good ol’ Catholic boy. ;-)

  179. on 04 Dec 2010 at 10:45 pm 179.Horatio said …

    “You, like your radical Islamist counterparts, are an endangered group hysterically clinging to a dated ideology.”

    LOL, Anti-Intelligent you and your little cult of atheist are so insecure. Just live your life in fear and bitterness and accept your position as an irrelevant sect that politicians do not even give a second thought.

    I know us huge majority are so illogical but we will just have to mange best we can.

  180. on 04 Dec 2010 at 10:59 pm 180.MrQ said …

    I know us huge majority are so illogical but we will just have to mange best we can.

    Isn’t it always the case that the distribution of brain power is not equal among the masses? Usually the sheep outnumber all of the others combined.

    Hor, could you do me a huge favour? Explain to dxt how you figured out the age of the Earth. It would carry more weight for him if it came from a fellow Christian.

  181. on 04 Dec 2010 at 11:03 pm 181.Dutch said …

    “Guess what? I am a good ol’ Lutheran boy, christened in a Swedish church.”

    You are? I thought you were an atheist? No wonder you are confused! SO you would answer a survey as Lutheran not atheist? Embarrassed or confused?

    Sorry, you come to my home country you will not tell me what to keep in and out of the schools. We get Christ in there more ways than you can imagine and will continue to do so. There is nothing like seeing a student’s life changed by the Christ.

  182. on 04 Dec 2010 at 11:17 pm 182.MrQ said …

    Dutch, #181,

    Did you bother to read my post #178 or just gloss over it? No wonder you believe…. you have a tendency to act without thought. You should be proud of yourself.

    you will not tell me what to keep in and out of the schools.

    When did you get to decide? If the christ enters my kids schools he is holding hands with all my other favouite fictional characters: Allah, Buddah, Zeus, FSM, etc. in a Comparative Religious studies class.

  183. on 05 Dec 2010 at 12:11 am 183.Horatio said …

    “Isn’t it always the case that the distribution of brain power is not equal among the masses?”

    So are one of the really smart guys Q?

  184. on 05 Dec 2010 at 12:52 am 184.MrQ said …

    So are one of the really smart guys Q?

    I think so. Some people call me a real wise guy. ;-)

  185. on 05 Dec 2010 at 2:10 am 185.dxt said …

    #166 A-T,

    “As for DXT though dangerously delusional like your brother Dutch, I found some of your arguments to be worth pursuing. I now grow tired of your perpetual use of scripture as evidence and stubborn refusal to acknowledge that anyone but a Christian can understand said primitive texts.”

    Feel free to correct me here but about 90% of my arguments are spent defending attacks against said Scriptures. Using theology, I back that up with Scripture. As anyone knows, in the world of “Christianity”, verses are thrown around quite flippantly and twisted to fit the god of their own desires. That is a major issue today. I guess we could rightly ask “what is Biblical Christianity?” There are alot of people today claiming they are Christians but are devoid of any change in nature or any evidencial impact of Scriptural teachings in their life. These issues are the antithesis of the marks of a believer. So now we can ask, “who then, can understand its teachings?” This question begs for the reading in John chapter 10. This is an issue of hearing and obedience.

    Joh 10:24 The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
    Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me.
    Joh 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
    Joh 10:27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
    Joh 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

    I know you will through the Scripture I quoted out the window because you do not accept the existence of God, but this is a Spiritual issue.

    “To put my morality where my mouth is; I do, in my existence, propose that I am equal to your imaginary deity; I can express foreknowledge just as he has allegedly done, only with better precision; I am the alpha and the omega; No atheist heart has ever been melted by his grace, and salvation comes from the exercising the meaning of life (which has nothing to do with the mythical figure Jesus Christ).”

    These are dangerous words my friend. No atheist has never experienced Gods grace? Surely you are not serious about that. You call me stubborn and delusional? Your problem is with this “mythical figure” idea. I had previously presented you with some questions as to the evidence of the resurrection and requiring from you a naturalistic explanation and you left me wanting. Your answer was basically “they were delusional”, which is outright denial of the evidence. This actually counts for no more than just spouting out “I believe it”. Why, is the question, and you haven’t satisfacorily supplied its naturalistic explanation. Untill you can do that, I ask you not to get worn down by my use of Scripture.

  186. on 05 Dec 2010 at 3:00 am 186.Anti-Theist said …

    Until recently (about a week) Ill concede that your use of scripture has been from a defensive, prove your allegations type stance, which I will never fault you for doing; recently though these interactions have seemed more like the scriptural mastibitorium of a fundamentalist evangelical; truly you’ve all but asked for my bank account information.
    I will never condone anyone’s claims to being holier than others due to their more stringent followings of scripture as I believe to claim that would require that the offender act as the men who wrote the bible did; Ill offer my independent view now that no one on these forums, as mentally subdued as they are, fits that description.

    I am deadly serious in my claims that no atheist has ever felt god’s grace which is in my understanding reserved for the believer; unless of course his “grace” includes fire raining from the sky like in the mythical tale of Sodom and Gomorrah.

    I could actually quite easily allow for the existence of “a” Jesus Christ; my rejection is probably, given time to mull it over, isolated to the biblical, mystical, miracle worker who introduced the homosexuals to hellfire.

  187. on 05 Dec 2010 at 4:20 am 187.Godless said …

    Dan Barker’s Godless is a great read. Part of the book tells the story of how one of the top believers became one of the top non-believers. Dan describes his process over about a 5 year period since this transformation doesn’t happen over night.

  188. on 05 Dec 2010 at 8:08 am 188.Severin said …

    177 Dutch
    “Atheist like to pretend they are different than the communist regimes but they are not.“

    You compare individuals with regimes?
    How could you support such an idiocy?
    What arguments can you offer?

    I could say: theists like to pretend they are different than the fascist regimes, or different than other bloody regimes which exterminated whole nations far before communist ever appeared, and did it with no exception under some religious symbol: Italy, Argentina, Spain, Germany, Chile, my own country, where fscists, under sign of cross, during the WWII, murdered hundreds of thousands of people ONLY because they were od different nationality and religion, while Christian priests blessed their knives.

    The biggest massive crimes ever were centuries of well organized slave hunts in Africa, and centuries of extermination of whole populations of N. and S. America, ALL under the sign of cross.
    Slave holders were “good christians”! They had a good base to hold slaves in their Bibles.
    Papa Doc and Pinoche were good Christians, same as many bloody dictators and massive killers during history of human race, including modern history.
    Do you know how bloody was the regime in Cuba before communists took power?
    I am not saying communist were less bloody!

    I do not exclude massive killers who exterminated nations in name of religions other than Chrisitan. They are all the same for me!

    So, you are like them?

    Of course I would never say such idiocy!

    But, if you are able to say something like that, maybe you are!

  189. on 05 Dec 2010 at 8:20 am 189.Severin said …

    177 Dutch
    “23% answered that “they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force”
    7 out of 10 children are christened in the Church of Sweden.“

    I am not an expert for Sweden, but I like the numbers you exposed.

    How many unbaptized children were there in Sweden some 100 years ago?
    And how many Sweden people existed „not believing in any sort of spirit, god….“ only 100 years ago?

    So, after 2000 years of Christianity, in only 100 years, we have 30% unbaptized children there!
    And 29% of atheists!

    Excellent score!
    WITHOUT communists!

  190. on 05 Dec 2010 at 8:32 am 190.Severin said …

    Dutch,

    First communist regimes, AND first fascist regimes, appeared on earth in the beginning of 20th century.

    At that time, there were NO atheists, ANYWHERE.

    Hitler won REGULAR ELLECTIONS, and was ellected by 100% christian population (after they had oportunity to hear his speaches for more than a decade!).
    Lenin won revolution massively supported by highly religious masses. Maybe communist were atheists, but including them, there were no more than 0.01% atheists in Russia at that time.

    Do you think there were any significant number of atheists in China when Mao won his revolution?

    They perfectly knew the psyhology of religious masses and used it to get their support using lies.
    They knew religious people are prone to trust lies.

    After they took power THANKS to religious masses, and masses got sober, it was too late for changes.

  191. on 05 Dec 2010 at 8:47 am 191.Severin said …

    185 dxt
    “Using theology, I back that up with Scripture.”

    Why don’t you, finally, use your theology, or whatever, to explain how kangaroos came to Noah’s ark!
    Your explanation, if holds water, would do much more for your credibility, and credibility of Bible, than putting hands on the eyes before one bullshit and citing other ones.

    You are citnig a totally unreliable book, full of illogical (bullshit) statements, and expect us to just neglect some bullshits and trust other ones, from the SAME book.

    We are not that kind of people!

  192. on 05 Dec 2010 at 4:19 pm 192.Anti-Theist said …

    #179
    Sorry to have allowed my, and many others, alertness of reality to be mistaken for insecurity or fear; we are more than capable of, and happy to be living our lives unencumbered by the whining, mostly impotent weight of faith. I, like many, own a dog and I have a close bond with my dog; in the foreground though is the constant reality that the dog could snap and require remedy, it happens every day. Looking at the inquisition, Taliban, and Kool Aid drinkers proves that the same “respect” should be kept for those who hear the voices of supernatural beings. When a rattlesnake bites it’s just being a rattlesnake; and those who sincerely accredit any holy book as truth should be treated as a practitioner of said literature.

  193. on 05 Dec 2010 at 7:21 pm 193.Hell Yeah said …

    “Indeed, this decline in belief has been foretold of according to the Scriptures.”

    Hmmm…when creating a false belief, such as religion, the creators know that they are wrong, so of course they are going to put something in there that says there will be people out there that will be against them….that is because not everyone is going to fall for the B.S., so the creators want to try to demonize those who don’t believe so the ones that do believe will still believe.

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