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Christianity &Islam &Judaism Thomas on 15 Sep 2010 12:01 am

Understanding morality, and why no “god” is needed for morality

Understanding morality, and why no “god” is needed for morality:

The video covers these topics:

  1. What is meant by words like right, wrong, moral, immoral
  2. Why this definition is applicable and represents the moral views of most people whether they realize it or not
  3. How to objectively determine if something is right or wrong without appealing to subjective opinion or personal taste
  4. Why we ought to things that are right and not things that are wrong
  5. Plus, it solves all the moral problems Christians can’t solve, even if they don’t realize they don’t have the problems.

For example, what makes stealing wrong? What are the symptoms of a morally wrong act? What do all morally right deeds have in common that distinguish them from morally wrong deeds? If we don’t know how to tell if something is morally wrong, how can we know it is morally wrong in the first place? Well worth listening to.

He also did a follow-up:

If you are a Christian, Jew or Muslim, how do you respond to this?

57 Responses to “Understanding morality, and why no “god” is needed for morality”

  1. on 16 Sep 2010 at 12:23 am 1.Rostam said …

    He is obsessed with Christianity and obviously has zero understanding of theology. Who these “Christians “he supposedly speaks to is questionable. He spends more time on them than his actual premise. Therefore, his whole argument falls apart.

    Quite entertaining. In the first five minutes his argument becomes even more irrelevant. His definition of morality starts with the words “Happiness, pain and suffering”. His subjective meaning of happiness, pain and suffering will of course different among all groups. How much happiness, pain and suffering is immoral? Second, his definition is his personal opinion. He failed, as we knew he would but it was fun too watch.

  2. on 16 Sep 2010 at 4:18 am 2.Anonymous said …

    Rostam, what is your definition of morality?

  3. on 16 Sep 2010 at 11:07 am 3.Curmudgeon at large said …

    It is endearing to see an atheist tell the rest of humanity how morality is to be defined as if they are somehow the ultimate law giver. Not once does he provide reasoning for why his treatise is more relevant than Mao’s, Obama’s or the Pope’s. Consequently, it is no more than mere opinion.

    Take his homosexuality reference. Is it possible homosexuality causes great pain to the parents? Would it not by his own definition me immoral? Maybe this is just his own selfishness (another immoral trait?)that leads him to happiness as a barometer for morality. That was a real head- scratcher.

    His childish jabs at Christians relegates this video to no more than a comedy Channel exclusive.

  4. on 16 Sep 2010 at 11:29 am 4.Anonymous said …

    Curmudgeon, what is your definition of morality?

  5. on 17 Sep 2010 at 4:38 am 5.rob said …

    for someone who claims that he doesnt believe in christ sure has gone thru a lot of trouble to discount his existance. ernest hemingway once said do what ever feals good. he said if its sinful things that feels good to you then indulge yourself in it. thats how hemingway lived, he did what ever felt good to him. the guy got so loaded down with his sin , he couldnt take any more and killed himself. one day your eyes will look into jesus’s eyes. you will die one day . repent ask jesus to forgive you now. please ask him.

  6. on 17 Sep 2010 at 9:29 am 6.Joe said …

    HemMingway had a severe mental disorder (of a type that was pretty common in his family and can therefore be assumed to be genetical in nature). So it was certainly not sinfulness that made him commit suicide. Two former friends of mine were reborn Christians (one from a very early age on) and killed themselves for the very same reason.
    In other words: the content of your comment is as simplistic as the style of its presentation.

  7. on 17 Sep 2010 at 10:26 am 7.3D said …

    5.rob said …

    for someone who claims that he doesnt believe in christ sure has gone thru a lot of trouble to discount his existance.

    As a great man once said, Jesus isn’t real, but his wacky followers are, and some of them are crazy and violent and wield influence over society. That’s why we discount Jesus’s existence.

    ernest hemingway once said do what ever feals good. he said if its sinful things that feels good to you then indulge yourself in it.

    No he didn’t, Sling Blade. We know you aren’t smart enough to seek out quotes on your own, so clearly your pastor who gave you this quote to parrot on atheist websites got mixed up. Here is the actual quote:

    “What is moral is what you feel good after, and what is immoral is what you feel bad after.”

    Notice the word “AFTER” — not during. That means, it might feel good to bang your mother-in-law, DURING, but AFTER, that guilty feeling tells you it is immoral. That is another way of saying that human beings have EVOLVED with a sense of morality built into the system over the years, and most of us know right from wrong instinctively.

    Of course, there’s always the odd psycho who can’t determine in his pea brain whether stonings and burning people alive and slavery are always wrong, or if sometimes they might be really awesome. Those people are called “lunatics” and usually religious. This abnormality happens because evolution isn’t perfect and some people come out screwed up and amoral, by random genetic mutation (and sometimes externally by social circumstances).

    It’s weird, though, how the same people who are so morally depraved that they can’t figure out if they’re solidly for bloody stonings or against them, will be often the first people to comment on a blog saying that other people’s morality is just horribly wrong because they have sex before being married or smoke pot.

    So how about you, Rain Man? Want to take a try at the question no one else here wants to answer? Is it universally wrong to pick up a rock and bash someone’s head in with it until they are dead and covered with their own blood? Or are there some times when that’s OK to do?

    thats how hemingway lived, he did what ever felt good to him. the guy got so loaded down with his sin , he couldnt take any more and killed himself.

    That’s true. But on the other hand, he was also a brilliant writer, war hero, journalist, and world famous celebrity wealthy beyond our wildest dreams and admired worldwide; while you are a lowly douchebag posting embarrassingly stupid and poorly written comments on the blog posts of an atheist website, scolding people because your pastor told you to, like a marionette bouncing happily on strings or a trained monkey tap dancing to organ music. So, one could make a fairly strong case that you’re not really in a position to judge how Ernest Hemingway lived his life.

    Just sayin’.

    one day your eyes will look into jesus’s eyes. you will die one day . repent ask jesus to forgive you now. please ask him.

    Boy, are you gonna feel silly if you get to heaven and it’s Quetzlcoatl flapping his 90-foot wings in your face and determining whether you go to hell or not. “Who is this Jesus guy I keep hearing about? Sorry, wrong answer. Send this one to Q-Hell with all the others.”

  8. on 17 Sep 2010 at 12:18 pm 8.Anonymous said …

    Christians here refuse to define morality. Why?

  9. on 17 Sep 2010 at 12:58 pm 9.Rostam said …

    3D

    Severin has been clear that banging your MIL is wrong. Anonymous, my morality states banging MILs is just plain wrong. How about yours?

    3D, you might actually win your first debate if at some point you can debate without resorting to ad hominem attacks. You lose again,

    Hemmingway accomplished much but died after an existence without God he found quite pointless and empty. Robert Frost, a man who knew great sorrow, was his polar opposite so your accomplishments argument is quite lame. When you are old enough check out Hemmingway’s biography by Catherine Reef.

  10. on 17 Sep 2010 at 3:17 pm 10.Severin said …

    What is MIL, please?

  11. on 17 Sep 2010 at 10:26 pm 11.3D said …

    9.Rostam said …

    3D
    Severin has been clear that banging your MIL is wrong. Anonymous, my morality states banging MILs is just plain wrong. How about yours?

    I agree that banging my mother-in-law (MIL, for Severin) would be wrong, even for my father-in-law. (Thank you, I’ll be here all week, try the veal.)

    3D, you might actually win your first debate if at some point you can debate without resorting to ad hominem attacks. You lose again,

    As I pointed out before, ad hominem arguments are ones that address the opponent directly, and not the argument itself. It’s NOT an “ad hominem attack” if I address your argument with a rational response, and ALSO call you an idiot for making it. Since I am addressing your points and THEN pointing out how stupid they are, it’s just a well-deserved insult.

    Actually, what you and Horatio et al. do here habitually is much more of an ad hominem argument — ignore the point being made completely and just say “atheist (sic) will never learn, blar har har” without actually making an argument.

    Rudeness is not born from a lack of logic. Sometimes it’s just necessary because the opposing side is just so vacuous and obnoxious and not interested in a debate, that there’s no benefit in being polite.

    Hemmingway accomplished much but died after an existence without God he found quite pointless and empty.

    Hemingway had a clinical mental illness. His death had nothing to do with atheism, religion, or anything else related to this debate.

    Robert Frost, a man who knew great sorrow, was his polar opposite so your accomplishments argument is quite lame.

    My accomplishments argument was only to show that someone attacking Ernest Hemingway for having an empty life, while posting badly written droolings on an Internet blog comment section, is irony to the nth degree.

  12. on 18 Sep 2010 at 7:54 am 12.Anonymous said …

    Why do Christians refuse to define morality?

  13. on 18 Sep 2010 at 12:34 pm 13.Severin said …

    9 Rostam
    “Severin has been clear that banging your MIL is wrong.”

    I am glad you are trying to prove yourself right by citing me, but not by lying about what I said:
    Severin never said anything like that.
    In a discussion about morality, a few months ago (when one of you guys asked me WHY IS INCEST IMMORAL), I said that even the consent sex between brother and sister is NOT immoral for me, IF it does not bring children.
    Sex between close relatives which brings children IS immoral to human race, because we know that inbreeding leads to ruining of species.
    We know it INTUITIVELY. Evolution brought this rules to our minds and constructed mechanisms to avoid inbreeding to many species, if not all of them.
    ALL human societies ever prohibited sex between close relatives BECAUSE birth of children was very probable from such a reltionship, and all human societies KNEW it ruins the species. No matter what religions they belonged.

    Sex between you and your MIL is immoral only if it brings pain to someone (her husband, your wife…), otherwise, if consent, enjoy!

  14. on 18 Sep 2010 at 1:14 pm 14.Biff said …

    Not everyone who is bipolar commits suicide. Most do not. Hemmingway was always searching for something. Many bad marriages, always on the go a need to be writing constantly and looking for answers to life. Down time was his enemy, A relationship with his Creator was what he was lacking to give him that sense of purpose and meaning.

  15. on 18 Sep 2010 at 1:18 pm 15.Biff said …

    3D,

    Ad homenim attacks are a fallacy and not a part of legitimate debates. Personally I find you arguments quite lacking filled with opinion, liberal talking points and assumption but I would never refer to you as a knuckle dragging neanderthal.

  16. on 18 Sep 2010 at 1:23 pm 16.Biff said …

    Anonymous

    You will never receive an answer because first you are also in a fallacy knwon as digression, Try addressing the topic of the thread (unless you have called “uncle”) or a comment already made. Second, try using a name.

  17. on 18 Sep 2010 at 3:53 pm 17.Severin said …

    16 Biff
    Here I am, using my real first name.
    Please try to define christian morality for me (us).

  18. on 18 Sep 2010 at 4:42 pm 18.3D said …

    17.Severin said …

    16 Biff
    Here I am, using my real first name.
    Please try to define christian morality for me (us).

    Strict Christians do not have morality, because their morality is defined by the whim of God. When God orders babies to be dashed against rocks, that is moral to them. Then when God says “Thou shalt not kill” that is the morality of that particular day until it changes again. Good or bad, their morality is defined by what God says; they can’t make subjective moral choices on their own because it’s forbidden by the Bible to contradict God, and God changes his mind all the time.

    If the sky opens up tomorrow and God says “everyone have sex with your close family relations and no one else”, they will adopt that as their morality. They are a blank slate.

    Atheists (and also good, casual religious people) define their morality through part built-in intuition and part life experience. Even casual “Christians” reject most of the immoral things in the Bible; they follow the rituals because they’re familiar and sentimental, but they selectively edit out or remain unaware of the things that contradict their personal morality.

    Of course, as has been pointed out here many times, evolution isn’t perfect so there are some soulless monsters who rape and kill even without religion (some even obtaining tremendous power through public office, like the Stalin and Mao examples constantly being dredged up here) but they are by far the exception. Most people have the built-in evolutionary “alarm system” that prevents us from committing heinous acts. Christianity exists to get people to ignore that “alarm system” and consciously behave immorally and irrationally, in an attempt to liberate them from their money.

  19. on 18 Sep 2010 at 5:20 pm 19.Biff said …

    No, lets stick with the treatise here Severin. That was the thread post. The justice of God has been explained to you many times. You obviously can’t grasp it.

    This “built-in alarm” you refer to. How did this evolve from nothing? What were the steps that got you here? So why do people still justify with pragmatism cheating, falsifying, cheating, etc.? But I digress, I would early love to hear how the alarm evolved with right and wrong programming and no aid of intelligence.

  20. on 19 Sep 2010 at 12:00 am 20.MrQ said …

    Biff,

    “I would early love to hear how the alarm evolved with right and wrong programming and no aid of intelligence”

    The answer is in front of you, in what you wrote. It “evolved”. We all know this to be true because humans are a branch of the ape family. If the alarms (knowing right from wrong) had failed to EVOLVE, I wouldn’t be typing this message to you.
    Think EVOLUTION, Think MILLIONS OF YEARS, and look into the animal kingdom. Some species seem to have worked out how to behave in groups, large and small.

  21. on 19 Sep 2010 at 12:48 am 21.Biff said …

    Mr Q

    Uh Huh, so tell me the steps, the process or better the evidence that it evolved. A system of intelligent choices from once lifeless matter.

    I say I am typing this because God put it there. So provide some proof, some parallel observable systems where this has taken place before and I will then correspondingly revise my belief. Do you have anything Q?

  22. on 19 Sep 2010 at 2:34 am 22.MrQ said …

    Biff,

    Are you saying that you do not accept evolution? Are you saying planet Earth is not billions of years old?

    What, if you’re saying that there was an intelligence that began the universe, leads you to the Biblical God as a plausible originator ?

    We both stand in wonder at the size of the universe and variety of life on our big blue marble; perhaps the only difference between us is that you’ve already put down a bet on the christian version of events whereas I continue to be amazed and open minded.

    As for the steps, figure it out for yourself, you seem a bright boy.

  23. on 19 Sep 2010 at 6:53 am 23.Severin said …

    19 Biff
    “This “built-in alarm” you refer to. How did this evolve from nothing?“

    Primates, lions, cats, mice….obviously can not know anything about biblcal morality.
    Yet, they do NOT eat their own youngs, full of proteins, but DO eat youngs (and adults) of other species.
    Like in human society, killing is highly „immoral“ in society of apes. It occurs very rarely and only in specific situations.
    Fight for females end with death very rarely, etc.

    The mechanism and „justice“ (morality) of evolution has been explained to you many times. You obviously can’t grasp it.
    It, of course, did not evolve from „nothing“. It evolved through billions of years of „learning“ and transfering information by genes.

    And, of course, I will never grasp a morality by which killing of babies is immoral except if god orders it.

    For me, with mu “built in alarm”, killing of babies is ALLWAYS immoral, no matter who does or orders it.

    I feel both physical and mental hostility when I see any sort of killing or torturing. Brutality of any kind is repulsive to me.
    It could not come from the Bible, obviously.

  24. on 19 Sep 2010 at 7:21 am 24.Severin said …

    19 Biff
    „But I digress, I would early love to hear how the alarm evolved with right and wrong programming and no aid of intelligence.“

    My first question would be: which intelligence? Who/what programmed that inetelligence? Did it come „from nothing“, or what?

    I am a chemist and with my modest knowledge I positively know that many reacions WILL occur in benefitial surroundment (temperature, pressure, catalists).
    Complexity of possible reactions among organic molecules is tremendous. In one case some free radical will react one way, in something different circumstances it will react another way. The more complex the molecule, and the more monomers present, the bigger number of possible reactions. There are many ways a simple molecule of urea reacts depending on what is it surrounded with and depending on conditions.

    So, it is quite immaginable that a very complex group of molecules joined together by chance, which were able to (chemically) recognize DANGER of being degraded.
    They SURVIVED.
    Further steps are logial without eplanation. Evolution started!
    Please do not forget that some 3.5 billion years passed after the first primitive cell “recognized” danger, which was probably the main trigger of further evolution.
    It is my modest opinion that for spontanious “construction” of the very first (or, probably, MANY very first) primitive cell some 3/4 of time was necessary, but after it finally existed, evolution continued much faster.

    Can you imagine 3.5 billion years? I can not!
    Nothing illogical, nothing unexpected, nothing „intelligent“ in spontanious natural processes. Just nature in action.

  25. on 19 Sep 2010 at 7:28 am 25.Severin said …

    21 Biff
    “Uh Huh, so tell me the steps, the process or better the evidence that it evolved.”

    Why don’t you give us some evidences that some higher intelligence created it without being created itself!

    If you refere to Biblical god, he does not differ much from any previous gods which “created” uuniverse and living world from different materials.

    Nothing intelligent in making man from mud, which oposes simple laws of chemistry.
    Idiocy!

  26. on 19 Sep 2010 at 11:37 am 26.Biff said …

    Q and Sev you are in a permanent digress mode. Reboot and just answer a simple question. What or How did these steps of the “built-in alarm” come about? If you accept that evolution w/o the aid of intelligence diddit then as a group who claims scientific superiority, should you not be able to communicate this truth?

  27. on 19 Sep 2010 at 1:09 pm 27.MrQ said …

    Biff,

    Evolution is the answer. Intelligence evolves.

    Think of it like this: First rewind the clock about 8 to 10 million years ago. Our ancient ancestors were getting around on all fours. They did not have the mental abilities to make and use tools. We can agree that there was not much in the way of societies, laws and rules. Just groups of man-apes trying their best to survive.

    Fast forward to today – Laws, societies, internet, houses with heat and air conditioning, global travel etc, etc. Ask yourself what changed in the 8-10 million year time frame? Answer: we evolved. The changes occurred much like life continues today, without any intervention(s) from any deity. Simple.

    I know Biff, you see god everywhere. If that’s what floats your boat, then go get’em tiger!

  28. on 19 Sep 2010 at 1:50 pm 28.Biff said …

    “Laws, societies, internet, houses with heat and air conditioning, global travel etc, etc. Ask yourself what changed in the 8-10 million year time frame? Answer: we evolved.”

    Uh huh, with intelligence. Now can you answer the simple question how did the “built-in alarm” arise from the heap of lifeless matter without intelligence guiding the process. The question is very simple.

    I know you see God no where so the answer would seem evident.

  29. on 19 Sep 2010 at 2:49 pm 29.Observer said …

    #15 Biff “Ad homenim attacks are a fallacy and not a part of legitimate debates. ”

    You really are a simpleton. There is a very active branch of philosophy and logic on ad hominem type arguments. You could start enlightening yourself by first boning up on Nietzsche, then covering the century plus you seem to have missed.

    You are clearly poorly educated. Did you go to one of the Christian diploma mills like Liberty, Regent, Furman, Bob Jones, etc?

    I will not mince words, you are one of the ignorant white trash filth I despise. You are a blight to my country, just like radical trash in Islam. Barring psychopathy, you have the ability to improve yourself. Why do you choose not to?

  30. on 19 Sep 2010 at 2:53 pm 30.Observer said …

    The last post was unfair to Furman. Even though they were affiliated with the ultra-low Southern Baptists, they have thrown off that yoke and have worked hard to cleanse that stain from their past.

  31. on 19 Sep 2010 at 2:55 pm 31.Anonymous said …

    Biff,

    Are you confusing the rise of life on Earth (abiogenesis) with evolution?
    Are you asserting that goddidit? Created man from mud? Woman from a spare rib?

    Just because I don’t fully understand a mechanism does not mean I will make up an answer or resort to a fairy tale fanatasy. No need to supply me with a soft comforting answer; I seek REAL answers. I continue searching with amazement and an open mind to ALL the possibilities, most of which are yet to be discovered. Don’t fear the unknown, seek to understand.

    You do know that at one time there were christians who claimed that a rainbow was a miracle/sign from god, don’t you? But now that refraction laws are understood those folks are in the minority. Apply that same logic here and quit jumping to god as the default answer for all that is not yet understood.
    Use your god given grey matter ;-)

  32. on 19 Sep 2010 at 3:23 pm 32.MrQ said …

    ooops. Anonymous #31 was MrQ.

  33. on 20 Sep 2010 at 3:21 am 33.Biff said …

    Observer,

    Sorry retraction is too late.

    lol, Furman hasn’t been affiliated with a Christian organization in well many years. I have very strong ties and proudly. Observer if you want to seem intelligent learn to insult properly. Do some research. Furman is an outstanding U and well respected in the secular world. Few if any atheist I might add! Just because you were rejected, well never mind.

    Anyway Mr. Q, I have not confused anything. I asked a simple question for I am a simple man and quite proud of that. What steps were taken to go from lifeless matter to this “built in” alarm? Evolution diddit is not an answer. Provide some proof of this rise with zero intelligence guiding the process. Provide a parallel example if necessary. Anything…

  34. on 20 Sep 2010 at 6:41 am 34.Severin said …

    Biff
    You got your answers, you just do not want to see them.
    The key question here is: if there was intelligence before universe was created, who/what made that intelligence? Who/what created it/him/her? Who/what “programmed” it?
    Quite logical questions, seeking for answer!
    Sorry, but it is quite idiotic for me to be said that some god created universe, without asking who created “him”? I do not see any reasonable reason not to pose such question, and I expect answer: IF god created something, what created him?

    If NOTHING created him, if “he” is “self standing”, “self supporting”, if “god” “just is”, try to find any formal reason to opose my statement: matter/energy/natural laws (which are immanent “intelligence” of matter energy!) were not created, they “just are”, they “just exist”, transforming from one form to another according to their own “intelligence” (natural laws!).
    WHAT is wrong with it, and is not wrong when you say the same for god?

    If “intelligence” is immanent to god, natural laws are immanent to matter/energy. Of course, they are MUCH MORE LOGIC, and most of them logically and mathematically PROVEN, and your god has many problems with logic and math.
    So, you are free to put: matter/energy/natural laws = god.

    In which case all other gods ever posed on their trones by humans lose their sense.

  35. on 20 Sep 2010 at 6:52 am 35.Severin said …

    Biff,
    Don’t you see how MUCH progress human race made in only 2000 years?
    THAT is evolution, too! Humans did not change much physically in last 40 or 50,000 years, but their MINDS evolved tremendously!
    That IS evolution in action, too!

    Evolution does not involve ONLY physical changes.

    Gorilas are physically the same es they were 2-3,000 years ago, but that much ago they did not know how to use a rock to brake a nut.
    They spontaniously LEARNED it within a period of time.

    If we don’t kill them all, in 50 or 100,000, or 200,000 years we will have a new, primitive human race able to make conclusions and to plan.

  36. on 20 Sep 2010 at 11:47 am 36.MrQ said …

    Biff (from above #21)

    “so tell me the steps, the process or better the evidence that it evolved.”
    Evidence provided, see above.

    “I say I am typing this because God put it there.”
    Put what “there”? Put the words down for you? Put a computer in front of you? How do you know god did it? Which god? Funny how the burden of proof for a god’s existence and magical work/intervention in your life is so weak.

    If you wish to remain willfully stupid and always say god is the answer, then that is your prerogative. It’s always a safe and easy answer when some of life’s questions becomes tough. And I had hope for you…Oh well!

  37. on 20 Sep 2010 at 5:43 pm 37.Biff said …

    Q,

    Oops, you may have forgotten all I have done is question Severin on the process of steps that took place for the alarm alarm system to form but alas, you guys would wish to digress.

    I take it you cannot prove a complex system of ethics and morality is the product of “time diddit”. Atheist sure do have a lot of faith in time and chance but since we see complexity deriving from intelligence daily, I have a difficult time with that much faith. It is such a straight forward question I fail to see why all the tangents in your responses. If you could somehow prove your case I would gladly reconsider.

  38. on 20 Sep 2010 at 9:16 pm 38.MrQ said …

    Biff,

    Let us start with what we can agree on.
    Let’s see, how about: Do you agree that life for our ancestors was quite different 10 million years ago than it is for us today? It was simpler back then – No pension plans to worry about, no need to punch the clock, never any fear of global warming, nuclear war, or global pandemics. There was not much in the way of morals, rules, laws, and punishments, was there? Are we on the same page?

    We’ll slowly work towards the morality issue, and the “alarms” from here. Fair enough?

    If I am going too fast for you, just let me know.

  39. on 20 Sep 2010 at 10:22 pm 39.Horatio said …

    Q

    Do you agree that OS 10 was written, designed and developed by men with intelligence and not by millions of years of hit & miss?

  40. on 20 Sep 2010 at 11:21 pm 40.MrQ said …

    Hor

    Do you agree that the bible, like OS 10, was written, designed and developed by men with intelligence and not by millions of years of hit & miss?

    Why the digression, Hor? Afraid of something….

    This discussion is supposed to be about developing morality, the “alarm” for right and wrong and other learned and innate animal behaviours.

  41. on 20 Sep 2010 at 11:58 pm 41.Horatio said …

    No digression here Q. I pointed out a system that operates with design and purpose and it did not develop by accident, chance, time or insert new word here. The same holds true for the design throughout the multiple complex systems in the universe — even the cell.

    Now, you point out a very complex set of systems in everyday life that developed by random chance with no designer. Maybe the Robert E Lee natural bridge?

  42. on 21 Sep 2010 at 12:31 am 42.MrQ said …

    Hor

    When you come to realize that before OS 10 there was OS 9, and earlier there was a short lived OS/2 which was based on an even earlier DOS. Before any of that there was the transistor, preceded by the semiconductor. Long before all of this there was Boolean algebra, a system of logic way before it’s time.

    Keep the ball rolling until you’re back 10 million years -our starting point for Biff- and what do you have? Ape-men scavanging? Garden of eden? What say you, Hor.

  43. on 21 Sep 2010 at 2:14 am 43.Biff said …

    Q

    You are not obligated to provide an answer. This was originally for Severin. That as it might be, you still have failed to answer a straight forward question Hor asked you a similar question and you dodge that one. I am well versed in the history of mankind and the corresponding theories. Just answer the question, provide a modern example or admit you are unable. It is that simple.

    If Ape men scavenged the garden of eden maybe you could just share with us the steps leading to their alarm system coming to fruition without the aid of intelligence guiding the process? Considering the many complex systems that make up the homosapien, this would be one of your simpler tasks.

  44. on 21 Sep 2010 at 2:20 am 44.Hell Yeah said …

    “you point out a very complex set of systems in everyday life that developed by random chance with no designer.”

    And I suppose your God isn’t complex? How did God develop? He created himself?

    By the way, random elements thrown together over time isn’t complex. Keep in mind, once the first life forms began, which are not to the complexity it is today (yes, we are complex life forms), the first life forms had an opportunity that elements didn’t have before, and that was to be able to make decisions. Decision making to a degree is part of evolution. We wouldn’t be complex today if it weren’t for the millions of years of decision making of life forms. And yes, if you really think about it, decisions in certain aspects of life is a part of how species evolved, the rest is environmental randomness. That is how complexity formed over time.

  45. on 21 Sep 2010 at 2:51 am 45.MrQ said …

    Biff,

    I see. Your entire position does not call into question evolution. It is that “intelligence guided the process”. OK. You may run with that if that’s what gets you through the day.

    No sense in trying to explain anything else because for you it always boils down to some invisible supernatural force in control of it all. I will waste your and my time no further.

    What was Hor’s question? About a computer operating system? He is assuming that it was written and inspired by god? You guys make me laugh.

  46. on 21 Sep 2010 at 7:42 am 46.Severin said …

    43 Biff
    “If Ape men scavenged the garden of eden…“
    If you put the „ape man“ to eden, than we do not have much to talk about anything.
    Lucy, who was NOT an ape, lived some 3 million years ago!

    If you still believe earth (and the whole universe) was „created“ some 6,000 years ago, there is no base for any debate between us.
    I can do nothing to make you believe the solar system is some 4.5 billion years old and first life on earth appeared some 3.5 billion years ago.

    It is the matter of education.

  47. on 21 Sep 2010 at 7:58 am 47.Severin said …

    Biff
    If you lived in 1600., you would probably put your own torch into the stake under Giordano Bruno’s legs.
    For god’s sake, he claimed sun was the center of solar system!
    ALL religions and churches in the whole world, including christian church, REFUSED to recognize the fact, and killed people who claimed oposite!

    Today, YOU ACCEPT IT!
    I hope you do!?

    HOW is it possible?
    And if you accept THAT, why don’t you accept further news from world of science?

  48. on 21 Sep 2010 at 11:22 am 48.Biff said …

    Q,

    I am encouraged you were able to grasp the scope of the question. Honestly, it did seem straight forward. You could not provide a process that would allow this alarm system to form from lifeless matter to the complex instruction code we see today void of intelligence.

    You could not even provide an example today where we see such a phenomenon void of intelligence. Yet you believe it is possible. OK

  49. on 21 Sep 2010 at 11:42 am 49.Hell Yeah said …

    Alarm system. I’ll answer your question, Biff. If you take a psychology course you will come across something called Pavlov’s Theory. Ring the bell, the dog knows it is getting fed. It comes from memory and decision making. Now relate that to the alarm system you are refering to. When thinking of committing heinous acts, the memory tells us not to otherwise we will suffer the consequences in society.

  50. on 21 Sep 2010 at 3:34 pm 50.MrQ said …

    Biff,

    “If Ape men scavenged the garden of eden maybe you could just share with us the steps leading to their alarm system coming to fruition without the aid of intelligence guiding the process?”

    I tried, I failed. No eden ever existed to the best of my knowledge. Have you any proof? Want real evidence -> Look into early human ancestors and study mDNA. The fossil record has numerous creatures with varying degrees of ape/human characteristics. All preceding the rise of Homo sapiens.

    Maybe start by reasearching what some of your fellow christians are saying about evolution. Try a catholic view with: http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/evol/
    Then go for a baptist view with: http://www.biologos.org/

    All the best in your journey. I don’t know why I try, it’s like communicating with a couple of bricks.

  51. on 21 Sep 2010 at 3:51 pm 51.Severin said …

    48 Biff
    “You could not provide a process that would allow this alarm system to form from lifeless matter to the complex instruction code we see today void of intelligence.”

    Only 300 years ago no one could provide a process which would explain WHY apple falls from a tree to the ground and does not just fly away to space.

    Does it mean the gravity did not exist 300 years ago?
    No, it only means it was unexplained (obviously NOT unexplicable!)

    I offered you simple explanation about how was it possible to get, then to transfer to further generations, sense of FEAR (or “fear” for very primitive organisms): nothing but chemistry!

    It COULD happen by chance! Some organic molecules “run away” from other ones even in non-living chemistry, depending on their polarity, electrical charge, nature and position of certain active groups, …

    If there is a complex structure behind such “sensors” able to “remember” such an event, (chemically “record” it, by changing some small element of the complex molecule), both “sense of fear” and reaction to “fear” are registred and ready to be transfered to next generation.

    And, of course, complex molecules are possible to get by chance in 3.5 billion years.
    Today we get extremely complex medicals, with biiiiig molecules, by synthesizing them!

  52. on 21 Sep 2010 at 9:23 pm 52.Biff said …

    Q,

    Well I thought you understood. You obviously do not since you provide links that support my POV. LOL, you even went to biologos! So have you renounced atheism?

  53. on 21 Sep 2010 at 9:53 pm 53.MrQ said …

    Biff,

    Try and focus. We were trying to see how morality evolved.

    (see #19, your post from above)
    “But I digress, I would early love to hear how the alarm evolved with right and wrong programming and no aid of intelligence.”

    Talk about digressing. You have HUYA syndrome, or is it just your ADD kicking in?

  54. on 22 Sep 2010 at 1:42 am 54.Biff said …

    Q

    How deep are you willing to dig your hole? You reference biologos…..try reading up on Francis Collin’s biologos.

    You have not answered the question and to add to my argument you provide sources who along with me realize that the “alarm” along with the rest of creation didn’t come about without intelligence.

    I have proven my point with your help. Thank Qless.

  55. on 22 Sep 2010 at 2:10 am 55.MrQ said …

    Biff,

    I seek a common ground from which we can branch out and have an adult discussion. I did not say I believed in everything that Biologos states, do you?. But at least it brings us to a mutual understanding.
    Which is what I was seeking. Until you continued to shift the goal posts, get off topic, and generally waffle and obfuscate.

    Back to the starting point: Holy Shit this is gonna be an exercise in pain with no hope for gain: Since you appear to be a Biologos zealot (evolutionist) we can now both apparently agree that life 10 million years ago was largely without rules, and completely without laws and morals. CORRECT?

  56. on 22 Sep 2010 at 10:40 pm 56.THOMAS .K. said …

    I KNOW THAT THIS IS A SIMPLE OBJECTION
    HOWEVER, SOMETIMES LITTLE THINGS CAN MEAN A LOT.
    WHEN ONE THAT IS AN ATHEIST REFERS TO “GOD”, HE SHOULD SAY. ‘I DON’T BELIEVE IN “A” GOD.
    SAYING IT ANY OTHER WAY GIVE IT VALUE AND A STATED EXISTENCE. THANK-YOU. THOMAS…..

  57. on 23 Sep 2010 at 1:15 am 57.Horatio said …

    Q

    Do you have any clue what you are attempting to share? How could the posed question be so difficult?

    By providing links that support intelligence developing life you are not providing common ground, you are accepting the position of which you claim is “delusional”.

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