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Christianity Thomas on 05 Aug 2010 12:36 am

Sharron Angle shows the depth of Christian delusion

Sharron Angle is the Republican U.S. Senate candidate in Nevada. There have actually been points in the race where she has led Harry Reid in the polls. She has a gigantic following in the Republican party.

How is this possible? How could any intelligent person listen to the rantings of this highly delusional Christian and not turn away in disgust?

Sharron Angle’s take on separation of church and state

Example:

“When God calls you, he also equips you and he doesn’t just say ‘Well, today you’re going to run against Harry Reid.’ There is a preparation,” she said during a recent interview on the Christian Broadcasting Network. “Moses had his preparatory time. Paul had his preparatory time. Even Jesus had his preparatory time, and so my preparation began on a school board.”

She believes that an imaginary, invisible man in the sky has “called her” and then “prepared her”. Yet this same imaginary man will allow 10,000 children to die of starvation today?

Example:

She believes abortion is a violation of God’s will and should be banned in all cases.

Yet if God has a will, abortion is clearly his will because the majority of pregnancies are terminated by miscarriages in a process called spontaneous abortion.

Example:

she has said that public policy should support the “traditional” family structure as described in the Bible, in which one parent stays home with the children while the other works.

Indeed, although many Americans view the separation of church and state as one of the keys to the nation’s success as a multicultural society, Angle believes that religion has an expansive role to play in government. And, she has repeatedly said anyone who opposes that based on the claim of separation of church and state misunderstands the Constitution’s ban on “establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”

In this regard, Angle’s view of religion’s role in government parallels that of a religious political movement — Christian Reconstructionism — seeking to return American civil society to biblical law.

Biblical law? If we return to Biblical law, we need to kill tens of millions of Americans, as vividly demonstrated here:

How could anyone with such absurd beliefs have any credibility?

80 Responses to “Sharron Angle shows the depth of Christian delusion”

  1. on 05 Aug 2010 at 3:01 pm 1.Anonymous said …

    Angle: Democrats want to ‘make government our God’

  2. on 06 Aug 2010 at 2:07 am 2.Boz said …

    I would vote for Howard Dean if it would get Reid out of DC. Our government was full of Christians in office in 1800. No question the corruption now dwarfs then but for atheist they probably are more concerned about belief in God than corruption.

    But ironically atheist almost to the man voted BHO and a man, no less, who believes in……God and is obviously very sympathetic to Islam??????? Maybe they like the ones who hide it better or just the DNC version??????

    Thinks that make you go hmmmmmmmm

  3. on 06 Aug 2010 at 1:42 pm 3.Horatio said …

    I think they are working on getting Sam Harris on the ballot using the platform of extinguishing those whose beliefs he deems dangerous. The pendulum swings both ways.

  4. on 06 Aug 2010 at 2:05 pm 4.Anti-Theist said …

    In the future theism will looked upon as a disorder, but today in this primitive stage of our development as a species it is still rampant. Atheists are one of the most distrusted groups on the planet. There are laws still in place in some states barring atheists from holding public office, and as an atheist you cannot join the boy scouts. Prepare yourself to see more of these loons put into office before reason has its golden age.

  5. on 06 Aug 2010 at 4:18 pm 5.Observer said …

    That filth such as Sharron Angle exists should come as no surprise to the more decent folks who read this website. Furthermore, readers of this website with a bit of intellect and honesty know full well that the white trash Christians in this country, some of whom have acquired a gloss of bourgeois trappings, are in fact worse than their most physically wretched and disadvantaged redneck coreligionists. While the glossy white trash are justly proud they are not squatting over a fetid pit to take a shit like their close relatives and very recent ancestors, they have deluded themselves into the dangerous territory of believing they possess the intelligence and wisdom to make substantive decisions regarding society and the country at large. Examples abound on this website usually with tag-lines by Hor, Lou, Boz, Biff, etc. This is the unfortunate “blow-back” of the simple-minded political correctness which began in the 1960s, and began its groundswell when Jimmy Carter came-out as a Born-Again Christian. It is a disgrace the United States elected a Baptist. It has been downhill ever since.

    While a tolerance for a wider range of ideas circa-1960 was a healthy thing in many ways, an intellectual flabbiness entered into what became acceptable in public discourse. The end-product of all this is a media which is utterly bereft of rigorous analysis. A recent example of how degraded public discourse and thought has become is that a complete liar and charlatan like Rep. Paul Ryan (R-WI) actually can promulgate ridiculous economic plans, and they go unchallenged in the press, and are even reported as something other than fraud in what were once respectable publications.

    The excruciating stupidity of conservative luminaries such as Limbaugh, Beck, et al. and the preponderant dishonesty of Will, Brooks, et al. goes unchecked. The psychologically impaired, gullible, and stupid follow willingly so long as there is an emotional hook to bring feeling into their otherwise meaningless lives.

    Atheists and Freethinkers, we have to soldier on. The United States is in immense danger. Look at how fast the Soviet Union collapsed. There is (Christian) filth which has prayer meetings in the Pentagon. The USAFA in Colo. Springs is deeply diseased with the sepsis of evangelical Christians. We are in deep trouble as a country. We are competing with the likes of Hu and Putin and folks actually are entertaining the notion of the vapid simpleton marionette of the neo-cons Palin as president? She could possibly be worse than W.

    Obama is pretty far from great. He is a Christian which is awful, not very deep, and in the grand scheme of things he and his administration are basically beltway types, albeit of a somewhat less rapacious variety than Bush/Cheney. Nevertheless, in much the same way that if one takes a very small number, as in the merit of Democrats, and divides it by zero, as in the merits of the Republicans, you get infinity.

    Atheists and Freethinkers- actively support Democrats, work toward a better alternative, and do whatever can be done to thwart the evil of fundamentalist Christians, Christian Re-constructionists, Republicans, and all other enemies of The United States of America domestic and foreign.

  6. on 06 Aug 2010 at 7:07 pm 6.Severin said …

    2 Boz
    “God and is obviously very sympathetic to Islam???????”

    This a good oportunity to say us what is wrong with islam!
    In what way does it differ from christianity?

  7. on 06 Aug 2010 at 7:27 pm 7.Anti-Theist said …

    Islam and Christianity are no different from one another. They are both sick cults of deluded primates bent on the end times. They are both full of slaves whom masochistically need to be judged and controlled, subjected to thought crimes all at the same time.

  8. on 07 Aug 2010 at 6:37 am 8.Severin said …

    7 Anti-Teist
    “Islam and Christianity are no different from one another.”

    I know it, of course. I want some of guys believing in god to give me an answer.
    They NEVER answer such questions, but I keep provoking.

  9. on 10 Aug 2010 at 6:30 am 9.A Christian Guy said …

    Ahem, well Severin, you got your wish. however, before i get going, i’d just like to say, i’m no pastor or great Christian theologian. Just a simple Christian.

    I guess i’d ask you this first, look at radical Islam. now look at Christianity. Real Christians, don’t blow themselves up, or do the things that Radical Islamist’s do. If a Christian did, they arn’t acting christian at all, and its possible, they arn’t even christian. however,you will most likely point out that not all followers of islam are radical, so i’ll save you the comment, and just jump to that one next.

    Standard Islam VS Standard Christianity.

    CHRIST. its in even in the spelling. Islam has no Jesus, and no savior. They believe that if they live well enough, and pray enough, God will save them. what they don’t know, is that he already has, through Jesus Christ. True Christians realize they are not worthy of God. it would be just for God to throw every person into hell. He offered us an option, but the standard we couldn’t reach. (the old testament rules) so, he made a new covenant. His son chose to bear the weight of sin, and take that death for us, so that we may have eternal life. Thats where the difference is. Christians realize they need Christ. that we all need Christ.

  10. on 10 Aug 2010 at 7:59 am 10.A Christian Guy said …

    Whups, forgot to address the video.

    Example #1- The sabbath. Luke 6:9 “I ask you, which is lawful on the Sabbath; to do good, or to do evil, to save life or destroy it?” Words of Jesus Christ, when the pharisees tried to condemn him for Healing on the Sabbath.

    Example #2- Incorrect. That was addressed to the Israelites, and the first covenant God made with them. If an Israelite man or woman, worshiped other Gods, then that was the punishment. Israel was an unfaithful nation, given many signs and miracles, and yet still they turned to worship other Gods. No wonder that was the punishment. That has no pertanance to how modern Christians should treat non Christians. (if you need further proof of that, its clear because for the most part, Christians don’t go around shooting every single atheist out there.)

    Example #3- once again incorrect. Clearly you like taking things out of context. lets put them back into perspective. How many Christian kids do we see mowed down because they talk bad about their parents? (hint: very few) why do you think that is again…? because of the Covenant of grace. All of the laws of Leviticus, where the laws the Israelites had to keep. (which, for the record, they didn’t, and pretty much no one can.) When Jesus came, he died for our sins, so that we don’t have to keep those rules to gain eternal life. we just have to have faith and believe. (read the book of Romans.)

    Example #4- more Leviticus…(shocker) refer to the above ^

    Example #5-….Leviticus again. however, the comment, “The bible tells us we need to kill tens of millions of innocent americans.” well Innocence is far from it. Every person, deserves hell. plain and simple. don’t like it? Who are you, the pot to tell the potter what he has done wrong? but again, there is Jesus, and the chance offered at eternal life. Homosexuality, and Adultery are not acts of innocence. Adultery leads to broken marriages, and broken hearts. Homosexuality is the perversion of Gods gift to man and wife.

    Example #6- scroll up to #3.

    Example #7- well, at least we’re in the new testament. but once again, you’ve taken things out of context. Jesus spoke in parables, and metaphors. he did not mean to actually go cut your hand or leg off, or gouge your eye out. (the bible actually talks about how your body is a temple of God, and should not be self harmed) He was using it as a metaphor to illustrate how terrible Hell is. The idea of hell is terrible, its the worst idea in all Christianity. but its a cold reality. Before you ask how a Just God can allow a hell, ask how a Just God can NOT allow a hell.

    Example #8- Sexism.Paul was in a different time period than we are in now, and the idea that women could even BE in church, was a big deal back then. This is one of those, time relevant passages, where the context of the verse needs to be taken into consideration.

    Example #9- Slavery. Well, lets deal with the Old testament fist. Historically speaking, slaves were not treated like we’re thinking of. (like in the civil war.) Slaves where people who SOLD THEMSELVES into slavery, to work off a debt or provide for their families. It was not based on race either. Thats why when the Israelites were slaves in Egypt, and WERE MISTREATED and where slaves for RACIAL reasons, God saved them. God does not condone the mistreatment of slaves, or the idea that one race is superior. (read Leviticus 25: 39-42 and then the important end of verse 46 so you casually left out. “You must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.”) The verse from Titus also applies to that different kind of slavery. Also, William Wilberforce, the man who lead the abolition of slavery, based his moral reason, on The bible and through God. http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-slavery.html

    Example#10- Issiah 13:15-16: http://www.carm.org/bible-difficulties/isaiah-malachi/why-does-bible-say-houses-will-be-plundered-and-wives-ravished

    again, the same thing with the verse from Hosea, just whats going to happen, by the cruelty and sin of man.

    now for the verse from Numbers, I offer you Matthew Henry’s commentary on the passage.
    “The sword of war should spare women and children; but the sword of justice should know no distinction, but that of guilty or not guilty. This war was the execution of a righteous sentence upon a guilty nation, in which the women were the worst criminals. The female children were spared, who, being brought up among the Israelites, would not tempt them to idolatry. The whole history shows the hatefulness of sin, and the guilt of tempting others; it teaches us to avoid all occasions of evil, and to give no quarter to inward lusts. The women and children were not kept for sinful purposes, but for slaves, a custom every where practised in former times, as to captives. In the course of providence, when famine and plagues visit a nation for sin, children suffer in the common calamity. In this case parents are punished in their children; and for children dying before actual sin, full provision is made as to their eternal happiness, by the mercy of God in Christ.”

    It is time for the “thoughtful and intelligent people of this nation” to turn to God.

  11. on 10 Aug 2010 at 9:52 am 11.Severin said …

    9 A Christian Guy
    Sorry, A.C.G., I am an atheist, and I can not distinguish one unexisting god from another unexiting god. They are all same to me, and the arguments one religion effers to prove itself right are EXACTLY the same as arguments of another religion. What you can here is: we are right, our god is right, we are telling the truth…all the same.

    Why the “fact” that christian god sacrificed his own son to himself to “save” humans from himself, should mean to me anything but an ugly, immoral story?
    Maybe such stories offered some “messages” to people 2000 years ago, when moral criteria were different than they are today, and when people were totally uneducated and superstitious.
    What can we conclude from this story today? That god needed to visit a srink, nothing more.
    Such a god, who (among other well described evil deeds) sacrificed his own son for some illogical, misty (PERSONAL!) reason does not deserve humans!

    If your god told you today, as he told Abraham, to sacrifice YOUR child to prove your faith, what would YOU do? Would yo have the same opinion of god as you have today?
    Yeah, it was Abraham’s son, not yours! Why bother with it?!

  12. on 10 Aug 2010 at 9:53 am 12.Severin said …

    Sorry: “what you can hear”, not “what you can here”

  13. on 10 Aug 2010 at 10:10 am 13.Severin said …

    A Christian Guy
    “He offered us an option, but the standard we couldn’t reach. (the old testament rules) so, he made a new covenant.”

    He offered “options” like:
    - Kill (stone) “consumed” brides” (on the treshold of her father’s home!)
    - Kill (stone) people working on Sabath
    - Kill your (stone) own desobediant childre
    … etc

    Even THEN moral criteria of ordinary people were much higher than moal criteria of your god.

    Maybe some of them fucked sheep, maybe some of them worshiped some idols, maybe they commited adultery or practiced homosexual sex, but MOST of them would never masacre children or ripped pregnant women, OR sacrifice their own children fo ANY reason.

    So, strangly, it was O.K. for your god to tollerate (AND ORDER!)massacring of children and ripping of pregnant women, but he somehow could not live with sodomy, adultery, consumed brides…

    And, of course, he could not live with anyone worshiping anyone else but him.

    All of you christians would like to somehow avoid or hide the O.T., but it is here!

    Please do NOT forget that Jesus = god! I was taught so! it is written in the Bible!
    WHERE was Jesus when god ordered mascring of children?

    He was THERE! He WAS god! HE ordered all those ugly deeds in the O.T.

    If you say he did not, you deny the Bible, sayng Jesus was not god!

    Your choice (fortunately not mine!)

  14. on 10 Aug 2010 at 12:50 pm 14.Boz said …

    ACG

    Well done. There questions have been answered many times not just here but all over the Internet. That is why most of the Christians just ignore the same question asked ad nausem. They just don’t like the answers.

  15. on 10 Aug 2010 at 5:28 pm 15.A Christian Guy said …

    Severin~ Please, scroll up and re-read what i wrote, addressing the pregnant women and children. How am i trying to hide the old testament…? I believe i gave an answer to each “Example”. Most of which, were straight out of the Old testament.

    But, to the rest of your comment.

    Sin has a penalty. Death. No one could be perfect, So God sent his son (who was also God, as you pointed out.) to live a perfect life, and die for sin. Was that fair? no. But did Jesus do it unwillingly? NO. he could have zapped the roman soldiers and walked off anytime he pleased. He chose to stay, so that you and I won’t have to endure that kind of suffering. God (who is Jesus) payed the price. FOR OUR SINS. He died for everyone. He died, for people who curse him, and make fun of him and his followers. He died for every Atheist and Christian, and Muslim out there. Every single one. He had every reason to just throw us away. We were unfaithful, and fell short of his standards. But he showed mercy. Those are not poor morals. If a man chose to be shot in a hostage situation, to save the other 5 hostages from death, he would not be looked at as a lunatic with bad morals. he would be a hero.

    If God told me to sacrifice my son, like Abraham, i would probably look back into the bible and find that Abraham did not sacrifice his son. For God does not command, nor condone human sacrifices.

    “So what if they had sex with sheep, people who weren’t there spouse, or people of the same sex?” (paraphrasing) Because when sex is had, not how God intended, it is a perversion of a gift. If people followed Gods rules on Sex, the world would be a much better place.

    “So what if they worshiped Idols?” God showed himself to the people, saved them from horrible things, and gave them blessing after blessing. still they turned away with unrepentant hearts. Of course that would cause anger. and rightly so.

  16. on 10 Aug 2010 at 8:52 pm 16.Severin said …

    15 ACG
    ACG
    You explained nothing. You only, as ALL believers debating here, tried to JUSTIFY god’s deeds, not to give them some additional meaning, some explanation.

    In short, what you said was:
    God gave his laws to humans. Violating of those laws is called „sinning“. Punishment for most sins was DEATH.
    People sinned, so god killed them.

    In fact, you did not say ANYTHING more than that, in so many words!

    What you DID NOT mention, and is MOST IMPORTANT, was THE LIST OF „SINS“ for violating of which god masacred people (including children, non-sinners, pregnant women …).

    A part of this list includes:
    Adultery, blasphemy, homosexual relations, idolatry, disobedience of children to their parents, sacrificing of wrong (blemished) animal to god, prematrimonial sex, working on sabbath, ……

    Modern societies do not recognize „sins“ in thir laws. They recognize CRIMES.

    NONE of the „sins“ from god’s list is a crime TODAY!
    What god did to punish humans for their „sins“, would TODAY be considered as EXTREME crimes. Very sick, lunatic, brutal, insane…

    WHAT MORAL STANDARDS can we find in the Bible TODAY?
    None!
    „Thou shalt not kill“ (one among very few rules that fits modern standrads) is much more precizely described in human laws than in Bible.
    No laws in modern societies incriminate adultery, children disobediance, homosexuality, offering of wrong sacrifices to god(s), prematrimonial sex…..

    Biblical understanding of “right” and “wrong” do not fit modern understanding of morality.

    So, WHY, the hell, do we need Bible TODAY?
    To traumatize children and uneducated/retarded adults? To induce moral dilemmas in their heads?

    If your god was stupid and unable to anticipate development of human race in BOTH: technolgy AND morality, he was an idiot, not an „allmighty“.
    A very sick idiot, BTW!

    We do not need Bible TODAY for ANYTHING.
    It is a DANGEROUS BOOK, and people trying to “sell” us biblical moral rules TODAY are dangerous.

  17. on 10 Aug 2010 at 9:39 pm 17.A Christian Guy said …

    I couldn’t agree with what you said more. In our modern world, you’ll find there is no place for the Bible. Unfortunately thats how it is. The drug abuser doesn’t like to be told what he’s doing is wrong. why would he? What he does makes him feel good, and doing the opposite would cause him pain. However, what he does has consequences. Whether he can feel it or not, the drugs are killing him from the inside out. And ultimately, they lead to death. But the Drug addict doesn’t want to hear that. They want to be left alone with their drugs.

    Its the same in our Modern world. Why should people follow the bible? You can have all the sex you want NOW, why wait for it? why respect your parents, your a kid, you know better! why have only one partner, YOU CAN HAVE HUNDREDS! Theres a reason no laws incriminate these things. BECAUSE THEIR WANTED. Why make a society strive for the high road, ITS UNCOMFORTABLE! And when its uncomfortable, theres a chance that the people won’t be happy, and if the people aren’t happy, then they might not vote for us in the next 4 years. Theres your reason for why no modern laws incriminate these things. Its much easier to keep a prisoner in a palace than a cold cell.

    But if you look at it closer, following Gods law is not like a cold dark cell at all. Its doing things how they were meant to be done. When you don’t know the first thing about making a model car, and you try and do it without the instructions, what do you end up with? A sticky glob of wood scraps, that’s lucky if it has wheels. If you follow the instructions, you end up with a better car.

    Sex- If Everyone followed Gods laws on sex, the world would be so much better. There would be no STDs, AIDS would not be as rampant, Abortion would not claim the lives of millions of children, Marriages would be saved from a savage end in Divorce. Can you tell me that that would be bad? Can you honestly tell me, that the world would be a WORSE place, for living like that? But what has science given us? Death, unhappiness, and disease. The more honest scientific approach, would be to recognize what havoc promiscuous sex wreaks on humanity!

    Obeying Parents- Its pretty straightforward, you listen to your parents, they know better. This lines up scientifically as well. They have the age, and the experience. They’ve been where your going.

    There is no modern understanding of morality. Look around you. Our culture has become sickeningly hedonistic. And we have two things to blame for it, Science and Sin. Science told us, we were an accident, and that all we are is animals who live and die. There is no reason to live, except for pleasure. And sin just takes advantage of that mindset. Science says that we started out in Chaos, and will progress to a utopia. Have we progressed to Utopia sense the Renaissance? Or, the industrial revolution? Or after WWII? Have the scientific advancements of our race, helped humanity to become better? No. There is as much, if not more, hurt than there was 2000 years ago. The same mistakes are always made. The same Sins are repeated.

    But Scripture offers another alternative. One of joy, and peace. Utopia would be gained, if everyone lived according to Gods word.

    but, the drug addict lies in his high, insulting the clean man. What place does the Bible have in modern society? None what-so-ever. But as Christians, we are the salt and light of this world. We shine for Christ in the darkness, and we preserve this world that decay is so quickly turning rotten. For we trust in the hope that some people will hear what God has to say, and turn back to him.

  18. on 11 Aug 2010 at 6:18 am 18.Severin said …

    17 ACG
    „The drug abuser doesn’t like to be told what he’s doing is wrong. why would he?“
    There is nothing about drogs in the Bible. Modern human societiesare fight drog in many ways: laws, medicine, social politics, advice councils, police, schools, families, voluntary organizations…
    I do not say it is enough, and I do not say drog is not a big problem in human societies of today, but I do not see a way Bible can help in solving the problem.
    It only can lead a confused drog user, with already low level of moral criteria, to still lower level, by showing him how things that modern society considers crimes, once were O.K.

  19. on 11 Aug 2010 at 6:22 am 19.Severin said …

    17 ACG
    „Its the same in our Modern world. Why should people follow the bible? You can have all the sex you want NOW, why wait for it?“
    It was so in biblical times too! Just, females were UNPROTECTED by bothe human AND god’s laws then! People took female children (10, 12) to be their wives! People abused female children then more then they are abused today, and female children could NOT defend, because your god was a sexist, who forbid females to say anything.
    He ORDERED his “brave” fighters to collect female children as sexual slaves after battles!
    Females of all ages were members of societies with MUCH LESS RIGHTS than males.
    That is what god teaches us in the Bible!
    The BIG difference between how biblical god related to females and today is (in modern societies): women can SAY something. Women have right to DEFEND themselves. Unlike in biblical times, and unlike your god said, women are today MUCH MORE PROTECTED than they were protected by god’s laws!
    God ordered consumed brides to be killed! Is THAT something you want your children to learn from the Bible? I don’t!

  20. on 11 Aug 2010 at 6:41 am 20.Severin said …

    17 ACG
    What is wrong with sex, if it is consent? Humans seek for sex by their nature.
    I do.
    WHY don’t I jump on every nice lady passing by me? I am NOT a believer, but I have „built in“ moral rules in my head. Some of them are inherited in my genes, other I learned from my family and from society I live with.
    The first and most important rule in my head is:
    Do not do to others (including femals) what you would not like other to do to you.
    As simple as that, WITHOUT the Bible. My parents taught me that when I was little boy! They did not use Bible! They SHOWED me, in their behavior, in PRACTICE, how to communicate with my fellow humans, and I accepted their “lessons”!
    Beside HUMAN LAWS which prevent me to jumpt on females passing by me, by threatening me with jale (which was NOT the case with god’s laws!), my own moral rules prevent me to do it. My home upbringing does!

    HOW can Bible help society?
    By following god’s laws which say father has right to SELL his daughter?
    By following god’s which ORDERS killing of “consumed” brides?
    Or other god’s laws directing women to SUBMIT men in ANY situation?
    No, thanks!

    Bible is DANGEROUS!

  21. on 11 Aug 2010 at 6:59 am 21.Severin said …

    17 ACG
    „Why should people follow the bible?“
    Why, really?
    It has nothing to do with modern society!

    „The more honest scientific approach, would be to recognize what havoc promiscuous sex wreaks on humanity!“
    The more honest scientific approach gave us small-pox free, tuberculosis free (etc) society. It brought us in general MUCH more decent lives than we ever could live following god’s laws.
    Even in sex:
    Sex is a NATURAL INSTINCT. I should be NEVER considered a taboo!
    We have protection today, unavailable in biblical times AND FORBIDDEN BY CHURCHES in modern time! Unbelievable!
    Today’s churches, following biblical „laws“ help spreading AIDS!

  22. on 11 Aug 2010 at 7:13 am 22.Severin said …

    17 ACG
    „Have the scientific advancements of our race, helped humanity to become better?“

    Of course they have!
    We don’t kill consumed brides any more! We don’t force female children to marry by our choice. We don’t hold slaves. We do not kill people who work on sabbath and disobediant children. We don’t have TBC and small-pox. We eat better, live much longer and much more comfortable, have medical help….. Shall I continue…?

    Reading your post, I can only say (sorry): Look, people, what religion can make from a human!
    A dark pessimist, at least.

  23. on 11 Aug 2010 at 7:27 am 23.Severin said …

    ACG 17
    “But Scripture offers another alternative. One of joy, and peace.”

    Yes, I saw it in the O.T. and in Jesus’ words that only who hates his parents can join him.

    Paradise on earth! An Utopia with dashed children, killed brides, raped female war prisoniers, ripped pregnat women, salvery (with detailed instructtions how to beat slaves without killing them), selling female children by their own fathers, floods which kills both “guilty” and innocent (and animals!!!), Sodoma & Gomora, burning bushes and talking snakes.

    Joy and peace!
    What a prospective!

  24. on 11 Aug 2010 at 7:28 am 24.Severin said …

    ACG
    Do you literally believe there was a big flood?

    Maybe you can enlighten me:
    How did Noah bring kangaroos to his arc?

  25. on 12 Aug 2010 at 4:01 am 25.A Christian Guy said …

    The thing about the drug addict was a metaphor. however the bible does help with drugs, it talks about how our body is a temple of God and we should not do things that ruin that. (aka-drugs)

    Following the bible does not help spread AIDS, nor promote raping women, or any of the things you have said. How can you tell? Because Christians (or at least real ones) don’t do those things. You can keep bringing all of this up, but the truth of the matter is this. All the “bad” things in the bible you have been pointing out, have been so misconstrued and taken out of context, its almost laughable.

    However, i have no doubt you will refuse to acknowledge that, which, is your choice. The answers to your questions are there, if you look hard enough. If you really want answers to these questions, walk into a church and sit down with a Pastor. But, I don’t think you actually want answers to these questions.

    Sex. No, if we followed the bible, STDS would not even be a problem. If every man stayed with his wife, and vice versa, the world would be a better place. (no he didn’t order that men to keep sexual slaves.)

    Noah. Yes, i believe in the flood. and how did the Kangaroos get there? I suspect God sent them there. Considering how i believe God created the universe by simply speaking it into existence, i expect it shouldn’t be that hard for him to get kangaroos from Australia to Noah.

    It comes down to this. My faith is rock solid. I believe that there is an answer to every question you, or anyone else can think up. In fact, i’m only re-iterating what other people have no doubt already said. The truth is, you are not satisfied with our answers. That, once again, is your choice.

  26. on 12 Aug 2010 at 10:04 am 26.Severin said …

    25 ACG
    “Following the bible does not help spread AIDS”
    Maybe not, but churches prohibit protection thus directly contributing spreading of AIDS.
    Prohibiting protection in modern times is very irresponsible behavior. I would say: criminal.
    WHY all religions are obsessed with people’s sexual lives?
    What is bad in consent sex?

    “ If every man stayed with his wife, and vice versa, the world would be a better place.’
    I do not see how is it better to stay frustrated with someone incompatible, than to divorce.
    Frustrations help doing bad deeds.Frustrated people do very bad things.
    What is wrong with divorcing?

    “How can you tell? Because Christians (or at least real ones) don’t do those things.”
    So god himself was not a christian.
    Please refer to Bible about how many times he personally ordered killing of children, ripping of pregnant women, raping, robbing…
    You can not just deny it, sorry, it is there, in the Bible! So christians (right or wrong) including god himself DO such things. Recall Inquisition? Giordano Bruno?
    Recall American christians holding slaves?

    “All the “bad” things in the bible you have been pointing out, have been so misconstrued and taken out of context, its almost laughable.”
    I am not stubborn, as you think! I would REALLY like to understand things. So, please tell me WHAT CONTEXT. Where to find it?
    How else can I understand god’s command: their little ones will be dashed…., but as it was written?
    WHAT is contextual meaning of such sentences?
    WHAT is it what god REALLY wanted to say, when he said: when you beat a slave, be careful not to kill him? Or when he says: consumed brides have to be stoned?
    WHAT is the REAL meaning of hundreds of such sentences?
    I do not see it, so – because you say they were pulled out of context, please enlighten me by showing me the context, or “real meaning” of god’s words.

    About Noah: of course, everything is possible to “explain” using power of an all mighty and all knowing.
    EXCEPT: why did almighty kill innocent children together with sinners?
    Then comes, of course: HE HAD HIS REASONS, and WHO ARE WE TO QUESTION HIS REASONS… a ”circulus viciousus”!

    If you want to debate further, please do not use arguments like: “god said it”, or “it is written in the Bible”. I do not believe in god, and do not trust Bible. Try some logic! Try some explanations from this world.
    What god or Tarzan or Harry Potter said is irrelevant for me. YOUR words are important to me, which does not mean I will agree with them.

  27. on 12 Aug 2010 at 10:09 am 27.Severin said …

    “No, if we followed the bible, STDS would not even be a problem.”

    And we would never have sex.

    I prefer following my common sense and my understanding of morality and enjoy natural resources of nice ladies.

  28. on 12 Aug 2010 at 10:18 am 28.Severin said …

    “walk into a church and sit down with a Pastor.”

    Why an almighty needs mediators?

    I am totally open to gods: any of them is free to approach me any time and tell me anything.

    Pastors are humans, like me, which NEVER had direct contact with god, as I did not.
    WHY trust them? Why don’t they trust me?

    WHY should anything a Pastor say be more relevant than what I say?

  29. on 12 Aug 2010 at 11:59 am 29.A real-ist said …

    “Noah. Yes, i believe in the flood. and how did the Kangaroos get there? I suspect God sent them there. Considering how i believe God created the universe by simply speaking it into existence, i expect it shouldn’t be that hard for him to get kangaroos from Australia to Noah.”

    Goddidit! That is the only phrase you need to know for everything that can’t be explained. Just turn off any logical thought process. I suppose God created all the extra water to flood the whole Earth and then made the extra water disappear, too. I suppose God guided the ark, which scientists did an experiment that a large ship from back then like that couldn’t have stayed afloat too long. Why didn’t God just wave his magic want and create the ark instead of having Noah spend 50 years building it? I suppose the kangaroos were able to fly over the ocean to get to Noah and then flew back to right where they came from after. Was Australia even known to the area Noah came from at that time yet? But no, one shouldn’t think of things like this and just grin and say God is great and did everything. Why even create the flood in the first place? Stupid.

  30. on 12 Aug 2010 at 1:04 pm 30.Horatio said …

    Atheist have problems with God superseding natural law but they have little problem with natural processes doing the same. The use the timediddit hypothesis. Time and chance can accomplish anything if time and chance set their minds to it.

    Tremendous amounts of evidence for a worldwide flood not only in science but it ancient literature from a variety of people groups. Polystrate fossils, clastic dikes, spontaneous sorting of layers, turbidity currents and out of order fossils all point the the reality of a worldwide flood.

    Atheist in this scenarios do not want to take a chance of giving any credence to the Bible so for this phenomena they prefer to close their minds to timediddit and focus on oort clouds as reality.

  31. on 12 Aug 2010 at 3:46 pm 31.3D said …

    25.A Christian Guy said …

    All the “bad” things in the bible you have been pointing out, have been so misconstrued and taken out of context, its almost laughable.

    OK, so here is your golden opportunity to pick one of those things at random, and provide the much-needed context for it. For starters, why don’t you explain the whole “ripping apart pregnant women and dashing babies against rocks” thing from Isaiah. I have seen three boneheads crying in this forum about how this verse is being ‘taken out of context’, but not one of them was able to provide that context on request. One of them got as far as telling this forum that the answer was ‘all over the Google’, but the only thing that appears to be available are apologetic websites that “explain” why those reprehensible things are OK when God does them. They never provide context which would change the meaning of those verses into something less morally repugnant, they just excuse those acts by God, because he is God and he can do evil things if he wants and still be good.

    I’m hoping you’re not a nincompoop like the other theists here, and can actually provide this unfound ‘context’ that you say all of us are missing here.

    However, i have no doubt you will refuse to acknowledge that, which, is your choice. The answers to your questions are there, if you look hard enough.

    Why do I have to look hard? Just post it here. You already wrote 3 long-winded posts here, why can’t you post a simple explanation of one of these supposedly out-of-context verses? You’re sure it’s out of context, so say why.

    It comes down to this. My faith is rock solid. I believe that there is an answer to every question you, or anyone else can think up. In fact, i’m only re-iterating what other people have no doubt already said. The truth is, you are not satisfied with our answers. That, once again, is your choice.

    No, honestly, it’s because your answers suck, so far. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that you can come up with something that make sense, because you’re new here. But it’s not a choice — for me — to disbelieve in things that make no sense; it just comes naturally. That’s human nature; children are prone to question things that don’t make sense, until they receive enough behavioral modification from the evil adults in their lives to make them stop doing it.

    So, it’s YOU making a choice to choose to believe in things with no evidence. When you believe in things that you can’t explain for yourself without sitting down with a pastor, a paid PR representative who is trained in selling people bullshit, then you have the problem, not the people thinking rationally about it.

  32. on 12 Aug 2010 at 5:28 pm 32.Boz said …

    CG,

    If you go back to my post at #14 I attempted to warn you this would happen. 3D and Severin are closely linked. You can explain but they have been brainwashed by the Dawkinites. They do not truly seek explanations.

    Kudos for a thorough job from one who does understand.

  33. on 12 Aug 2010 at 11:10 pm 33.A Christian Guy said …

    Very well. I will explain the ripping of pregnant women verse.

    That chapter In Issiah is talking about how Babylon will be invaded by another country (NOT Israel.) Wars back then, were bloody. God was letting The Babylonians know what was going to happen, and how awful it was going to be.

  34. on 12 Aug 2010 at 11:40 pm 34.A real-ist said …

    “Atheist have problems with God superseding natural law but they have little problem with natural processes doing the same. The use the timediddit hypothesis. Time and chance can accomplish anything if time and chance set their minds to it.”

    So give me an example where natural (which we know happens) processes supersede natural law? You do realize that when you have billions of years of time and random elements moving around and chemical reactions occuring, that a lot can happen over that time period. And guess what, time is real. So how can you compare godditit, when god isn’t proven to be real?

    —————-

    “Tremendous amounts of evidence for a worldwide flood not only in science but it ancient literature from a variety of people groups.”

    And I guess local floods never occured to you to be the reason whey many areas have flooded? Heavy rains and glaciers melting over billions of years can cause local floods all over the world. This doesn’t mean the whole world was flooded at the same time. So your variety of groups that claim a flood, I am sure they did have floods where those groups lived at some point over billions of years, but I am also sure they didn’t all happen at the same time point in time. Get the idea? Kind of hard to have a record of a worldwide flood when it has only been a few hundred years since people have been able to travel all over the world.

    —————-

    “Atheist in this scenarios do not want to take a chance of giving any credence to the Bible so for this phenomena”

    Exactly. Kind of hard to give credit to a book written 2000 years ago that has nothing real in it other than cities and people that may have lived during that time period, but with embelished stories written about them. It is like if I wrote a fiction book right now that included current cities and people, but wrote exaggerated stories about them, those people that are similar to you will in 2000 years say that those stories must be real because those cities and people existed. How is that any different? You do realize that people back then did have the capability to write fiction, right? Or in other cases, people back then can easily be tricked into believing the supernatural. Look how good magicians of today are. Your eyes tell you what they are doing is real, but you know it is just a trick some how. Did you see that guy cut that person in half with a saw? Did you see that person disappear and then reapper somewhere else under or in something? Can you imagine if those tricks were never explained?

  35. on 13 Aug 2010 at 1:57 am 35.3D said …

    33.A Christian Guy said …

    Very well. I will explain the ripping of pregnant women verse.
    That chapter In Issiah is talking about how Babylon will be invaded by another country (NOT Israel.) Wars back then, were bloody. God was letting The Babylonians know what was going to happen, and how awful it was going to be.

    Well, I gave you the benefit of the doubt, but this is a big swing and a miss. You didn’t provide ‘context’, you just made an excuse. And a false one. (In fact, it’s so removed from what the actual verses say that I am not 100% sure you read it; you might just be regurgitating what your pastor said.)

    These verses aren’t a story about some unnamed invading army smashing babies and ripping pregnant women. They are about GOD PROMISING TO DO IT HIMSELF with the help of an invading army. Here’s the (ahem) context from earlier in the chapter:

    4 Listen, a noise on the mountains,
    like that of a great multitude!
    Listen, an uproar among the kingdoms,
    like nations massing together!
    The LORD Almighty is mustering
    an army for war.

    5 They come from faraway lands,
    from the ends of the heavens—
    the LORD and the weapons of his wrath—
    to destroy the whole country.

    Then a few chapters later you get God talking about how awesome it’s going to be when everyone is dashed and ripped apart and no children are spared, which was what started this whole discussion in the first place.

    So, this is God talking about what he’s going to cause to happen to Babylon. He even brags that he did the same thing to Sodom and Gomorrah.

    19 Babylon, the jewel of kingdoms,
    the glory of the Babylonians’ [b] pride,
    will be overthrown by God
    like Sodom and Gomorrah.

    God has no problem taking credit for this carnage and destruction, so why are you trying to deny your own God the credit for all his killings that he was clearly very proud of and anxious to do?

    Wait, don’t answer that — I know why. Because you believe in the Bible, but you also know it sounds retarded and barbaric, so you’re trying to fudge some of the nastier parts into something more palatable.

  36. on 13 Aug 2010 at 5:29 am 36.A Christian Guy said …

    these are not my words, but they should suffice.

    Verse 11 says: “I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; I will put an end to the pomp of the arrogant, and lay low the pompous pride of the ruthless.” the passage is one of judgement for sin. Isaiah’s prophecy also makes reference to Sodom and gomorrah, in which no person other than Lot and his family were spared judgement for sin. God is not haphazardly killing the innocent, he is judging and justly dealing with sin. Think about when Israel was conquering the promised land. If they did not completely destroy a people group what did God say would happen? Those people would be a nuisance to Israel forever after. Which they were. This can all be brought down to the personal level. If we allow sin to remain, without being willing to let Christ take control of those areas of our lives, then that is an area he has right to deal with even if it hurts. Because of babylon’s wickedness, God determined his grace towards them was done and judgement came in the most unpleasant way.

  37. on 13 Aug 2010 at 7:14 am 37.Anonymous said …

    30 Horatio
    “Atheist have problems with God superseding natural law but they have little problem with natural processes doing the same.”

    We don’t have problems.
    Natural processes can not supersede natural law, they can only occur ACCORDING to natural laws.
    Of course, our problem is in our not understanding all natural laws, and (unlike religious people!) we (and scientists) honestly ADMIT it!

    YOU have problems!
    Your “gap god” who disappears slowly for millenniums, is today disappearing too rapidly for your taste: less and less gaps to cover them with gods! “Mysterious” gaps are more and more filled up by positive knowledge. Less and less “arguments” for ignorants to “fill up” gaps with their gods!

    A few hundreds of years ago god caused lightning.
    Today, electricity, is responsible for it.

    It is always more honest (and more clever!) to admit we do not understand everything (but we will obviously understand it soon, as history showed us: flat earth, earth as center of solar system, causes of diseases…..!), then to insist on stupid, illogical explanations, 2000 years old, which do not fit anywhere.

    Man made from mud! Multiplying of human race through incest. Big flood and flying kangaroos (what about polar bears, armadillos…)…
    Why do you insist on such idiocies? I can not imagine an intelligent human can persist it!

  38. on 13 Aug 2010 at 7:18 am 38.Severin said …

    Sorry, 37 Anonymous was Severin

  39. on 13 Aug 2010 at 8:03 am 39.Severin said …

    36 ACG
    “If they did not completely destroy a people group what did God say would happen? Those people would be a nuisance to Israel forever after. Which they were.”

    This is awful what you are saying! Are you aware of meaning of your words?

    So, not only that god is a bad example of “morality” on individual level.

    His words and deeds can be used as excuses for massive crimes, too.
    And they WERE used for that purpose, by Hitler (find Hitler’s speeches! One of them starts: “As a Christian, I…”).

    I would be ashamed of my religion, of my god, and of myself, if words of a god I believe in COULD be used as excuse for massive crimes against humanity.
    Which they obviously could! You cited them here!
    If a nation bothers your nation, kill them all, that is the ONLY “moral message” of it!

    Now you confirmed it, definitely!

    Shame on you and your god!
    I thought maybe you were an honest man, just deluded by religion.
    If you are ready to justify killing of millions because those millions could sometimes be “nuisance” for other nations, NO HOPE FOR YOU!

    I am not ready to debate with you further. I do not know what to say to your deadly and bloody arguments.

  40. on 13 Aug 2010 at 8:53 am 40.Severin said …

    36 ACG
    How is it that god did not instruct people how to cooperate, to live together, to help each other, to exchange ideas, knowledge, experiences, skills, to love each other?
    Where was the glorified “Christian love”.

    Instead, he ordered territorial wars in which one nation destroyed the other nation completely, including brutal killing of their children.

    I knew it before, of course as I read the Bible.

    What I am excited about is that I never before had a contact with a person supporting such ideas.
    I know such individuals exist, but I never contacted any of them.

    How naive I was: I probably “subconsciously” thought there are only few such people on earth, and I will never contact some of them.

    Yet, I was wrong!

  41. on 13 Aug 2010 at 12:42 pm 41.Mitch said …

    “Of course, our problem is in our not understanding all natural laws”

    3D,

    You see this statement above? Jesus knew that regardless of what He does, some will only claim it is a natural law we do not understand. Natural laws only exist because God created them. That should be pretty clear. I suggest some reading in Quantum physics to get a glimpse of our amazing God.

  42. on 13 Aug 2010 at 3:44 pm 42.Severin said …

    41 Mitch
    “Natural laws only exist because God created them.”

    They obviously did not exist when god created universe!
    Why would god make man from mud, if natural laws existed?
    Why would god allow incestous mating to multiply human race, if he knewe anything about natural laws.

    However, there is NOTHING about natural laws in the Bible!
    WHEN, please, did god create them?
    Which of 6 days?

    And: who/what created god?
    If you tell me he existed from ever, just explain why isn’t the matter/energy/time continuum good candidate for etarnal existance too, with NO reason? Without an ignorant god who barely differed from some 10,000 or more previous gods!?
    WHY should it be “created”?
    Because you say so?
    Who needs REASON for existance of matter? Who needs “starting point” of existance of matter, but does not need “starting point” for god?
    very strange and illogical.

    WHAT is illogical in eternal existance of matter, but is not illogical with eternal god?
    Who FIRST goes with his “hocus pocus” things, THEN creates natural laws, WITHOUT mentioning them in the “book af all books”! Strange!

    Why your god forgot to “save” people in both Americas?
    Civilisations from those sides never haeard about christian god and Jesus before Europeans came there.
    Too many people to just neglect them, compared to extremely small population of Jews, which ONLY god decided to “save”!
    A VERY untidy god!

    He did not much in Asia/China, even untill today, in Africa, Australia…

    Why did he just neglect all those por people and let them die without chance to know christian god, christian love and Jesus?
    Without chances to reach heaven?

    THAT is not only untidy! That is protectionism!
    Unexpected from an “all loving god”!

  43. on 13 Aug 2010 at 5:24 pm 43.A Christian Guy said …

    Heres a brief analogy.

    Caesar has a law. If Roman soldiers desert in battle, the punishment is death. 20 soldiers desert. They are latter caught, and put in a line. All of them deserve death. That is the law. But Caesar goes down, and spares every other man. Is what he did unjust? No. Caesar had the right to doll out his mercy as he saw fit. And to doll out his Justice as he saw fit. The same is true with God. The Babylonians were a sinful nation. One of the worst at that time. The were rebellious, and unrepentant. They broke the rules, time after time, with unrepentant hearts, so they payed the consequences. As for the Children. It is commonly accepted amongst Christians, that when a child dies, they are allowed into heaven. Because they were to young to know any better, or know to follow God. and sense God is just, he cannot allow them to be punished by hell. I do not disagree with you, that this is repulsive. sin is repulsive, and so are its consequences. The repulsiveness is there in the bible, you are right about that. I’m surprised you haven’t quoted from Revelations yet. But where you blame God, I blame man. It would have been more repulsive to have let this sin go unpunished, than for them to pay the consequences.

  44. on 13 Aug 2010 at 7:15 pm 44.Severin said …

    43 ACG
    “The Babylonians were a sinful nation. One of the worst at that time.”

    Yes, yes, I am not stupid, I already understood your “reasons”, no need to repeat them:
    people fucked sheep, made idols, commited adulteries, ofered wrong burnt animals to wrong gods, maybe they did not kill their non-virgin daughters, as god ordered, maybe they even did not beat their slaves, they worked on sabbath, some of them were homosexuals, they generally had more intercourses than god was ready to tollerate…
    Oh, so many SINS they did, concluded good god and kiled them all, together with their children!
    And several times so (Sodoma, Gomora, BF, …)

    How many times will you repat the same „explanation“?

    Please do not dive deeper into this shit!
    I feel sick of your “explanations”.
    I think any decent human being feels sick of them.

    You may blame who you want, but GOD was the one who killed for something called “sin” (list of „sins“ given), and HE killed innocent children which by definition could not understand difference between sin and non-sin, and consequently could not have sinned.

    Did god evacuate children from Sodoma?
    Did he put children on safe before the BF?
    He did not! He killed them all!

    WHAT justification can “wash” your god?
    Same that can “wash” Hitler: none!

    How many criminals “defended” their raping “deeds” befor court by claiming: “she provoked me, SHE is to be blamed for I raped her, not I”!
    THAT is the REAL picture of your “all loving” god!

    God massively exterminated people together with their children:
    a) because they “sinned”
    b) to give promissed teritories to „chosen nation“
    Both reasons are equally digusting and equally wrong, and YOU find them both O.K., and make efforts to justify such deeds to us!

    Caesar’s deeds would be considered crimes today.
    We do not use his methods today!
    Neither Caesar nor anyone else proclaimed Caesar’s laws valid for eternity.

    God did!
    He ran away in a mause hole, but his followers and mediators expect decent people to further consider his laws and deeds moral!
    What to say but: phooey!

  45. on 13 Aug 2010 at 7:48 pm 45.3D said …

    36.A Christian Guy said …

    Verse 11 says: “I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; I will put an end to the pomp of the arrogant, and lay low the pompous pride of the ruthless.” the passage is one of judgement for sin. Isaiah’s prophecy also makes reference to Sodom and gomorrah, in which no person other than Lot and his family were spared judgement for sin. God is not haphazardly killing the innocent, he is judging and justly dealing with sin.

    Severin already rebutted this, but I have to add, do you really think the babies God dashed against the rocks all deserved to die? I mean, step back from the Bible for a second and really ask yourself. Is a baby really so irredeemable that it should be killed? Is that what you believe in

    Would you happily live in a country that adopted that kind of judgment as its law? Like Saudi Arabia?

    Think about when Israel was conquering the promised land. If they did not completely destroy a people group what did God say would happen? Those people would be a nuisance to Israel forever after. Which they were. This can all be brought down to the personal level.

    Let’s deal with the macro-level first. Do you honestly think that wiping out a country that has different values from your country is a good thing? Should we never mediate issues, just drop high explosives and kill everyone in sight at the drop of a hat?

    If we allow sin to remain, without being willing to let Christ take control of those areas of our lives, then that is an area he has right to deal with even if it hurts. Because of babylon’s wickedness, God determined his grace towards them was done and judgement came in the most unpleasant way.

    What did the babies and pregnant women do to deserve brutal murders? What did Jephthah’s daughter do? If the sky opened up tomorrow and God said, “A Christian Guy, I’m sorry, but I need you to bash your baby’s brain in with a rock. So get on that.” Would you do it? Let me know, thanks.

  46. on 13 Aug 2010 at 8:40 pm 46.A Christian Guy said …

    I’ll refrain from diving deeper into this, and just leave it at this:

    For atheists, this never happened. You don’t believe in God or the Bible.

    For Christians, We believe that the innocent Children went to heaven. which, was a much better alternative, than living in Babylon their whole lives, turning away from God, and going to hell.

    Either the kids were never killed, or they are now spending eternity with God.

    As for Jephthah’s daughter, its more commonly believed that she spent the rest of her life SERVING God as a living sacrifice.

  47. on 13 Aug 2010 at 9:27 pm 47.Horatio said …

    ACG,

    LOL, well you tried and you did it patiently. Remember the unregenerate mind cannot comprehend the things of God.

  48. on 13 Aug 2010 at 10:07 pm 48.Alex said …

    As I sit and read through all these posts, the bottom line is you who call yourselves realists and Atheist’s must have an explanation for EVERYTHING…. The fact is, you have no FAITH. Thus making life a sad journey for you in which the end for you is empty. Let me ask you, what DO you believe in? What makes you happy? What do you live for if not belief in a higher power or better place? If all you have is science, what’s next for you? Nothing?!?! If all I have read from you so called “realists and Atheist’s” is true, you must be miserable. Although I will undoubtedly cath heat from you for saying this, I will pray for God to reveal himself to you. I truly feel for those who believe in nothing… Tragic and sad.

  49. on 13 Aug 2010 at 10:35 pm 49.Severin said …

    48 Alex
    “What makes you happy?”
    Life makes me happy. My daughter does. My friends do. Sun is making me happy, sometimes clouds, wind and rain too.
    Doing good to people, helping them, makes me happy.

    Reading makes me happy to.
    Learning! I am grateful to my curious spirit which never allows me to get over something without trying to understand it. To try to learn more about something. That makes me hapy too!

    Nice animals, beautiful flowers, all the beauty of the world makes me happy.
    Stars make me happy.

    Making love makes me happy.

    So manyt hings make me happy, than I can not list them them all here.

    Having no fear of hell makes me happy too. Without that irrational fear I am living full and happy life, knowing that when I die, I will be dead: more reasons to live a full, happy, decent life.

    Childrens’ smiles make me the happiest man in the world.

  50. on 13 Aug 2010 at 10:57 pm 50.Severin said …

    46 ACG
    “For Christians, We believe that the innocent Children went to heaven. which, was a much better alternative, than living in Babylon their whole lives, turning away from God, and going to hell.”

    So you claim god killed children for the 3rd reason too: to save them from undecent life with their parents, and to send them directly to heaven!

    Shall we now go to kill muslim children to “save” them from their undecent lives and send them to heaven?
    If not, why not: god gave us a perfect example, you gave us perfect explanation! According to you and the Bible, it is O.K.!

    I do not, and I never would, wished to YOUR children, or ANY children in the world, such an awful alternative.

    If you have children, do you ever think of them as of human beings, not as toys of any blood thirsty god?

    You touched the bottom with this!
    No more shit below this point!

    Or…?

  51. on 13 Aug 2010 at 11:41 pm 51.3D said …

    46.A Christian Guy said …

    I’ll refrain from diving deeper into this, and just leave it at this:
    For atheists, this never happened. You don’t believe in God or the Bible.

    So far, so good.

    For Christians, We believe that the innocent Children went to heaven. which, was a much better alternative, than living in Babylon their whole lives, turning away from God, and going to hell.

    There’s where you run into a problem. You claim that God killed a bunch of babies to prevent them from suffering later on.

    If that’s the case, then why did countless children get the plague, cancer, AIDS, and countless other diseases and live many miserable years with them? Why didn’t God have the foresight to have soldiers violently smash their brains in with rocks and do them a favor? Why smash the little innocent babies in Babylon into a bloody pulp, but not millions — maybe billions — of little babies in the 5,700 years since who grew up in filth, disease and poverty? If God was doing them such a favor, why did he stop there?

    Furthermore, why didn’t God see Hitler and Mussolini coming, and send someone with a rock to smash them to pieces in their cribs?

    These are the problems you run into when you try to retrofit logic onto an illogical story, rather than looking at an illogical story and concluding it makes no sense.

  52. on 13 Aug 2010 at 11:48 pm 52.3D said …

    48.Alex said …

    As I sit and read through all these posts, the bottom line is you who call yourselves realists and Atheist’s must have an explanation for EVERYTHING…. The fact is, you have no FAITH.

    If you don’t need proof for anything, and you just believe on faith, then how do you choose what to believe? You’re a Christian, not a Muslim or a Jew or a Buddhist or a Hindu or a Sikh. Right? That means you believe Christianity has more validity than any of those belief systems.

    So there must be some kind of critical analysis of some kind. How do you choose, if you don’t use logic and evidence? Did you just believe the first thing your parents told you and that’s that? Or what?

    I have more respect for the Christians who at least try to give explanations for the things in the Bible, even if I don’t agree with the explanations, than this weak kind of “I don’t like to think” excuse-making.

  53. on 13 Aug 2010 at 11:58 pm 53.Severin said …

    3D, you are really good!

  54. on 14 Aug 2010 at 12:16 am 54.Severin said …

    48 Alex
    “If all you have is science, what’s next for you? Nothing?!?!”

    On rational level science is all we have.
    On personal, spiritual level, we have so many wonderful things that you can not imagine.

    How can’t you see atheists are NOT LIMITED! Such a state is by definition wider than the state of fear believers live with all the time.
    For example: If an atheist makes love to his/her partner, he/she is NEVER afraid of going to hell.
    What a joy!
    One barrier less in mutual realtions!

  55. on 14 Aug 2010 at 1:06 am 55.Alex said …

    49 Severin,

    I am glad you are happy for all those things. All the same things make me happy as well. It sounds like you are thankful for everything God created. I guess the difference to me is that I am serving something higher than just myself and my own happiness. I find a great joy in believing that I have a reason to look forward to death rather than fear it. Just as you have no fear for Hell, neither do I. I don’t fear hell because I do follow God. The fact that you even acknowledge Hell makes me wonder if at one point in time you actually did fear it. Did you ever believe in God or Heaven or Hell? It sounds as though this Atheist lifestyle is a path many take as a way to rebel against someone in their lives pushing them into Christianity or Religion. Maybe that isn’t the case for you…. I guess we will agree to disagree. This is a topic that will not be resolved until Judgement day I suppose.

  56. on 14 Aug 2010 at 1:10 am 56.Alex said …

    54 Severin,

    It sounds like an excuse to have sex without commitment. It seems like many of the reasons Atheists choose their way of belief is to escape the feeling of guilt for sinning.

  57. on 14 Aug 2010 at 1:13 am 57.Alex said …

    54 Severin,

    “If an atheist makes love to his/her partner, he/she is NEVER afraid of going to hell.”

    After all you hold yourself accountable to no one. Partner being the key word in this statement.

  58. on 14 Aug 2010 at 1:14 am 58.Alex said …

    54 Severin,

    Again, I will agree to disagree.

  59. on 14 Aug 2010 at 1:45 am 59.Lou said …

    Alex,

    As one who is a former atheist let me say you are correct. As an atheist I lived for the moment believing death was the end of it all. Live it up and party hard!

    I would never had admitted that as an atheist, but it was my reality. I even enjoyed arguing with the relgious folks around me!

    I am grateful my eyes were opened to a greater purpose than self-gratification. Yes, even when we help others it is often to make us feel good rather than doing the right thing. Lessens the guilt if you will.

  60. on 14 Aug 2010 at 1:53 am 60.3D said …

    56.Alex said …

    It sounds like an excuse to have sex without commitment. It seems like many of the reasons Atheists choose their way of belief is to escape the feeling of guilt for sinning.

    But no one would consider sex a sin, if not for panty-sniffing religions declaring it so.

    Atheists (generally speaking) don’t share your uptightness about sexual topics. Therefore most don’t feel guilty about doing things YOU think are icky.

  61. on 14 Aug 2010 at 2:01 am 61.Alex said …

    52 3D,

    I didn’t believe anything my parents ever told me because they didn’t shove anything down my throat. In fact, they never even took me to a church or talked about it to me at all. I sought it out on my own. You say you have respect for Christian’s and yet you slam them for believing in the bible?? Let me ask you something. Do scientists believe in anything they read in books? Hmm… I own 2 business’s, I have been an EMT, and an Insurance agent.. Both of which I had to pass exams for. I read constantly… You say weak “I don’t like to think” excuse making? Let me explain something to you that you might want to think about… Everyone on this blog should already know that the argument between us “Christian’s, Muslims, Jews, Buddhist’s, Hindu’s or Sikh’s” and you “Atheist’s/Realists will never end until the day we die because as long as we firmly believe what we believe, it’s just a big circle. And by the way, If I didn’t challenge myself or “like to think” I would have passed up this blog without giving it a second thought… Thanks for the good arguments and conversation.

  62. on 14 Aug 2010 at 2:10 am 62.Alex said …

    60 3D,

    Don’t presume to know what I think is icky, or that I am uptight. Now all you are doing is stereotyping, and that doesn’t sound intelligent. Nobody said sex was a sin… Only to do it without commitment and feelings for someone and then move on to the next when you are bored with your current partner. It’s called a general understanding of respect for your “partner”.

  63. on 14 Aug 2010 at 2:22 am 63.Alex said …

    59 Lou,

    Thank you Lou. It is awesome to hear that people find a way to believe again when faith is lost. In case 3D might read this, I have done my fair share of “partying and living for the moment”, engaging in “icky” things. My eyes were opened as well. I had no satisfaction just sleeping with whom ever without feeling guilt. I would wake up with a stranger I met the night before and literally dread having to face telling them “I had a great time”. There was no meaning to it. I have never been happier than I am as a married Christian and I don’t miss the carelessness at all. I suppose there is some scientific explanation for why I woke up feeling empty after sleeping with someone I didn’t have any respect or care for.

  64. on 14 Aug 2010 at 4:43 am 64.3D said …

    62.Alex said …
    60 3D,
    Don’t presume to know what I think is icky, or that I am uptight.

    Well, you laid down the gauntlet, by presuming that Severin and other atheists became atheists because they feel guilty about their sexual practices. A totally unfounded assumption.

    At least I am basing my comments on things you’ve said here.

    Nobody said sex was a sin… Only to do it without commitment and feelings for someone and then move on to the next when you are bored with your current partner. It’s called a general understanding of respect for your “partner”.

    Where in Severin’s posts did he say he doesn’t respect his partners?

  65. on 14 Aug 2010 at 4:52 am 65.3D said …

    63.Alex said …

    59 Lou,
    Thank you Lou. It is awesome to hear that people find a way to believe again when faith is lost. In case 3D might read this, I have done my fair share of “partying and living for the moment”, engaging in “icky” things. My eyes were opened as well. I had no satisfaction just sleeping with whom ever without feeling guilt. I would wake up with a stranger I met the night before and literally dread having to face telling them “I had a great time”. There was no meaning to it. I have never been happier than I am as a married Christian and I don’t miss the carelessness at all. I suppose there is some scientific explanation for why I woke up feeling empty after sleeping with someone I didn’t have any respect or care for.

    Total strawman argument. Many atheists have perfectly fulfilling married lives and monogamous relationships, and many “Christians” cheat, rape and molest children. And vice versa. Atheism has nothing to do with morality or lack thereof in a person, and neither does religion.

    And yes, there is a scientific reason that you feel empty after banging someone you don’t respect. It’s called an innate sense of morals, and it has developed in the human race through evolution. It helps us protect each other and survive as a species, to know right from wrong.

    Not everyone has this trait because evolution is imperfect, and so you have some rapists and killers etc. Morality helps us survive by banding together as a society and punishing those conscience-less people and warning others not to follow through on their impulses. And not every good person follows through on what their conscience tells them, either, because people themselves are flawed.

    But most people are innately moral on the big issues that matter.

  66. on 14 Aug 2010 at 6:14 am 66.Severin said …

    63 Alex
    “… for why I woke up feeling empty after sleeping with someone I didn’t have any respect or care for.”

    I told you! Freedom!
    I never experianced such an “emptiness” after making love. In most cases big joy. In some cases not, because of incompatibility, but never emptiness. Never anger, either.

    BUT, I know the feeling! I experianced emptiness after I offended someone I love (friend, daughter, …).

    I always felt guilty, a feeleng well described as “emptiness”, in such cases, fortunatelly very, very rarely, as I usually do not offend people.
    I feel responsible: I do not do to people anything I would felt bad if they did it to me.

    Sin!? WHAT is sin? Braking unnatural rules PEOPLE imposed to other people in name of a creature they made up to keep people obediant and to take goods from them.

    It would have some sense if it was always the same creature. But so many of them!?

    Is it wrong societies having crimes, not “sins” in their laws, today?
    Would you be happy if societies had biblical laws (in fact: sheria laws) today?

  67. on 14 Aug 2010 at 6:28 am 67.Severin said …

    61 Alex
    “Everyone on this blog should already know that the argument between us “Christian’s, Muslims, Jews, Buddhist’s, Hindu’s or Sikh’s” and you “Atheist’s/Realists will never end until the day we die because as long as we firmly believe what we believe, it’s just a big circle.”

    How can we “clearly know” it, if we POSITIVELY know that so many wery strong religions, which lasted for centuries (some of them even for millenniums!) dissapeared before christianity ever appeared on earth, and – of course, BEFORE we dided?

    What is so special in Islam, Christianity…what was not special in religions based on Zeus, Ra, Qutzalcoatl…
    What is it that distinguish one made up creature from another?

  68. on 14 Aug 2010 at 7:24 am 68.3D said …

    67.Severin said …

    61 Alex
    “Everyone on this blog should already know that the argument between us “Christian’s, Muslims, Jews, Buddhist’s, Hindu’s or Sikh’s” and you “Atheist’s/Realists will never end until the day we die because as long as we firmly believe what we believe, it’s just a big circle.”
    How can we “clearly know” it, if we POSITIVELY know that so many wery strong religions, which lasted for centuries (some of them even for millenniums!) dissapeared before christianity ever appeared on earth, and – of course, BEFORE we dided?
    What is so special in Islam, Christianity…what was not special in religions based on Zeus, Ra, Qutzalcoatl…
    What is it that distinguish one made up creature from another?

    “Mine is real.” That’s the only answer you’re gonna get.

    And so it’s probably a mistake to think about it too much. He already admitted he doesn’t want explanations for everything, and it’s about FAITH. In other words he PREFERS if some things make no sense to him. A mind deluded in this way cannot be reasoned with.

  69. on 14 Aug 2010 at 1:12 pm 69.Severin said …

    55 Alex
    “…I am serving something higher than just myself and my own happiness…“
    No complaints, but are you sure you are serving the right god?

    I can not imagine a powerful creature able to create universe in its whole magnitude and complexity, peeping in my/your bedroom to check who are we making love with (are we “sinning“).
    I can not imagine such a creature (imagine: he created billions of galaxies, billions of stars each, black holes…) to injoy smell of burned animals, to create man from mud (what did he create all those galaxies from?), to order spreading of human race by inbreeding, to order me to have only one wife, to care for a small nation on earth, which represented some 0.02% of total population, neglecting the rest of people. Or to give instructions how to beat slaves.
    Like a grumbling women in period of menopause!
    Too small problems for an allmighty dealing with UNIVERSE!

    Something stinks in this „logic“.
    And, of course, it is inconsistant!
    Because, then comes ANOTHER „creator of the universe“, and says: your creator is nothing, do not listen to him, listen to me! Obey me! Worship me!
    I do not need burned offerings, but I want you to preay 5 times a day turned to Meka. And you may have more than one wife, but you must not eat pork.

    Which one is the right one?
    Both of them do not behave like creators of universe, but like stubborn, capricious children, quarreling for marbles, or about whose father is stronger.

    How can an intelligent individual accept such illogical behaviour from so HIGH creatures? Creatures far above any comprhension! We do not know path of their reasoning, (who are we to judge gods?), but we DO know they like smell of burnt meat, and we know they like us turned to Meka when praying!?
    Ridiculous!

    So, if „something“ exist, it CAN NOT be as primitive and as shalow as humans describe it! What humans describe as „creators“ and „gods“ was made up by humans.
    And for GOOD REASONS, but this is not the issue here.

    Why would I care about it?

  70. on 14 Aug 2010 at 1:40 pm 70.Alex said …

    This will be my last post. To both of you 3D and Severin. Why do you suppose it is that a staggering 98% of people, including so called “Atheists” make their peace with God just before death??? Is it just in case?? Hmm… I have family that work in the medical field and the fact is, nearly EVERYONE whether they believed in God when they came in or not finds themselves asking forgiveness just before death. Don’t worry, I will not check back for your explanations. This is fun, but also a distraction from my work. Why do you suppose we pray before war? During halftime at football games? Why do you suppose that regardless of how many different “creatures” every ethnicity in the world prays to, that they still pray??! It’s called faith people. What is your scientific exlanation for the fact that we have souls? Oh wait, I suppose you don’t believe in souls. Severin, you have been very respectful with your response’s I have a lot of respect for you. All I am going to finish by saying is. I don’t believe either of us has proven anything to eachother as far as we are both concerned. 3D, you sound angry and cynicle. Rather than just explain your point of view, you say things like:

    “I have more respect for the Christians who at least try to give explanations for the things in the Bible, even if I don’t agree with the explanations, than this weak kind of “I don’t like to think” excuse-making.” AND

    ” if not for panty-sniffing religions declaring it so.

    Atheists (generally speaking) don’t share your uptightness about sexual topics. Therefore most don’t feel guilty about doing things YOU think are icky.” You are in more of an attack mode than anything. I think something made you feel the way you do more than history. I will not presume to know you, but it’s just a feeling I get.

    Anyway, I have enjoyed these conversations if not for swaying eachothers beliefs, then to perhaps just be enlightened on other’s ideas.

    Thank you!

  71. on 14 Aug 2010 at 5:05 pm 71.Severin said …

    70 Alex
    ” Why do you suppose it is that a staggering 98% of people, including so called “Atheists” make their peace with God just before death???”

    I don’t suppose anything like that, where did you see me saying it?

    It was you who connected something with moment of our death:
    “Everyone on this blog should already know that the argument between us “Christian’s, Muslims, Jews, Buddhist’s, Hindu’s or Sikh’s” and you “Atheist’s/Realists will never end until the day we die “

  72. on 14 Aug 2010 at 5:24 pm 72.3D said …

    70.Alex said …

    This will be my last post. To both of you 3D and Severin. Why do you suppose it is that a staggering 98% of people, including so called “Atheists” make their peace with God just before death??? Is it just in case?? Hmm… I have family that work in the medical field and the fact is, nearly EVERYONE whether they believed in God when they came in or not finds themselves asking forgiveness just before death.

    LOL. That’s quite a scientific survey; you should call the New England Journal of Medicine to see if they will publish it.

    Anyway, to answer the question, 98% is a ridiculous estimate, but I’m sure some atheists do flee to religion when near death; maybe they’re senile, like Anthony Flew, or maybe they allow fear of death to sway their logic and reason. Being an logical is hard, it requires constant examination of the world and re-shaping of your beliefs to be consistent with that which is perceived in the world. Maybe by the end of life, some people are just fed up with it and would rather believe in naked baby angels sitting on clouds. Who am I to judge? That’s their prerogative; as long as their beliefs don’t affect my life in any way, they can believe any crazy thing they want.

    Selective religious practice, like what you do (i.e., believing in only the parts that make you happy) definitely has the advantage of being comforting, no question about that. The question is whether we should believe the things that comfort us the most, or whether we should believe things we can prove with reason and evidence, regardless of whether we feel good about them or not.

    I stopped believing in Santa when I was 7.

    Why do you suppose we pray before war? During halftime at football games?

    I don’t pray, so I can’t answer. Maybe you feel guilty that your religion has started so many needless wars and gotten people killed, so you are asking forgiveness.

    Why do you suppose that regardless of how many different “creatures” every ethnicity in the world prays to, that they still pray??!

    Because the human mind is similar all across the world, despite small differences. That’s why groups of people thousands of miles apart, separated by oceans, come up with similar fairy tales about super powerful creatures that created, vomited, or sneezed out the universe. It’s because the human mind is prone to superstition and answer-seeking; this is a good thing. This primitive myth making is an early example of the same desire for answers that led our more recent ancestors to come up with awesome telescopes, cures for diseases and computers.

  73. on 14 Aug 2010 at 6:13 pm 73.Severin said …

    70 Alex
    “What is your scientific exlanation for the fact that we have souls?”

    I don’thave a soul. No one has, people just like to think they have it.

    There are only different levels of consciousness by different living cretures.

    Consciousness is spontanious individual responding to information from „outer world“, from the „non-I“ world, and even most primitive organisms have it.
    The most primitive „sense of consciousnes” was distingushing friendly organisms from enemy organisms. Primitive organisms did not have consciousness before they learned (and started to inherit by genes), to recognize enemy organsms and to run away, or (chemically) defend themselves from enemy organisms who wanted to eat (absorb) them. The moment the first microorganism ran away recognizing by some chemical signs that his neighbor microorganism was a „hungry enemy“, consciousness was born.

    I am not speaking about self consciusness! I doubt microorganisms FEEL fear.
    But I do not doubt mouses feel fear, and in danger, their small brain produce individual sense of fear (“I am endangered!”), signalling their bodies what to do.

    Individual feeling of fear was the first trace of self-consciousness by living creatures.

    SELF-consciousness is highly developed by primates. They have well organized societies with hierarchy, and you can guess an alpha mail is pretty conscious who he is. He has his “I”!
    Primates even show rudimentar signs of BEING AWARE of their „I“, as the highest level of self-consciousnes, well developed by humans. They (primates), for example, recognize their pictures in mirror NOT as another primate, but understand them as their own pictures.

    Even by humans, consciousness is only an endless exchanging of information between brain, body and the „outer“, „non-I” world. Some of them are automatic, some of them created by our will.
    Permanent, uncontrolled flow of thoughts, even when we do not sleep, our uncontrolled reactions to signals from our surroundings (smells, sounds, movements) and our need to concentrate when necessary to do something complicated (write a letter), to hold our uncontrolled flow of thaughts back, shows us what our consciousness really is: a flow of information!
    This flow of information is enabled by electrochemical reactions in our body. When you die, chemistry stops working, no more consciousness.

    No such thing as soul exists!

  74. on 14 Aug 2010 at 6:21 pm 74.Lou said …

    some atheists do flee to religion when near death; maybe they’re senile, like Anthony Flew, or maybe they allow fear of death to sway their logic and reason.”

    No, it is because they are tired of fooling themselves. The end of their life means the game is up and it is time to get real with the Maker. I deal with people who are dieing or have a loved one dieing all the time. It is amazing the peace of those who have a real relationship with Christ vs. those who do not.

    Good point Alex. Dr Francis Collins speak on this in one of his books.

  75. on 15 Aug 2010 at 5:33 am 75.Severin said …

    74 Lou
    “some atheists do flee to religion when near death;”

    Some do and some don’t, as with all things in this world, when talking humans.
    I have a few dierect experiances about some people wich did not flee to religion when understood they were dying.
    My mother, who smiled and made jokes untill the very last moment, never mentioning any god.
    My father, who died in pain after operation, asked for some wine before he died, not mentioning god.

    My wife’s father died on my hands when he was 82. He was “moderately religious” during his life, and all he had to say some 2-3 hours before he died was: “It seems I am done, fuck it!”
    My wife’s mather died saying: do not sell the house!

    I do understand faer of death, it is natural.

    What I do not understand: why are religious people afraid of dying?
    Aren’t they going to eternal life? Some of them to enjoy in Christ’s company, other ones to enjoy 72 virgins. If I would be convinced such things are waiting for me after I die, I would wished to die today.

  76. on 15 Aug 2010 at 2:13 pm 76.Bishop said …

    “If I would be convinced such things are waiting for me after I die, I would wished to die today.”

    That is really sad. Life is so good. Why not enjoy the journey and go to heaven when God calls you? I hope you don’t bust in to friends homes before being invited.

  77. on 15 Aug 2010 at 5:02 pm 77.Severin said …

    Bishop,
    Thank you for your concern, but no need to be sad.

    I did not say “I will”, but “I would”, and it was more figuratively than really, I admit. Maybe a little bit provocative, to tease believers, I admit too.

    However, as I told already in one of my comments, people like me who do not expect ANY “post mortem” life, live more freely than people who are all the time frightened whether they did or did not somehow offended their capricious god, which expect modern humans to follow 2000 years old moral rules, and makes a mess in their heads.

    I live a really nice and rich life (not talking money here!), and my only concern is not to harm PEOPLE, and not to ruin enviroment. But it is not difficult for me, because I have well developed moral rules without any god.

  78. on 15 Aug 2010 at 8:55 pm 78.Bishop said …

    “live more freely than people who are all the time frightened whether they did or did not somehow offended their capricious god,”

    I always get a kick out of atheist telling me how oppressed my life is here on earth. Pretending there is no God only last a life time but living my life for Him is the ultimate joy.

    Please, no need to tell me how this Christian, Muslims or some Crusaders a 1000 years ago harmed people. I already know they are out there. There are hypocrites in every walk of life. It doesn’t change God.

  79. on 16 Aug 2010 at 2:03 pm 79.Severin said …

    78 Bishop
    “I always get a kick out of atheist telling me how oppressed my life is here on earth.”

    I got many kick outs from theists, here on this blog, and on many other places, telling me how poor my life is without god.
    Churches are attacking me frome all sides aggressively, too, all the time.

    This is only a debate, man, I am NOT trying to tutor you! No one is!

    Use some arguments, if you have them, do not take things personally!

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