Feed on Posts or Comments 25 July 2014

Christianity Thomas on 21 Jun 2010 12:11 am

Strangely the Bible, written by an all-knowing being, never mentions NASCAR, or cars, or even crude oil

Strangely the Bible, written by an all-knowing being, never mentions NASCAR, or cars, or even crude oil. How could that be? How could anyone believe in a book (or a being) that fails to mention the most popular object of our times, or the most popular sport, or the most popular natural resource?

And then we find things like this – people really do believe:

- The stock car bible

- Sarah’s tweet

Who are the people who could believe such things? How could they overlook such an obvious problem in their belief?

158 Responses to “Strangely the Bible, written by an all-knowing being, never mentions NASCAR, or cars, or even crude oil”

  1. on 21 Jun 2010 at 10:33 am 1.WC said …

    Actually, as far as marketing goes, I think the nascar bible is genius. It says subtle things like ‘my church thinks of me’ and ‘my church is current’ while still relaying exactly the same old messages that it used to. Even if nobody -buys- it, it still gives that message.

    The ‘man has failed. let’s give up and rely on God’ thing drives me nuts, though.

  2. on 21 Jun 2010 at 11:16 am 2.Zone said …

    The response to Sarah:

    http://twitter.com/BPGlobalPR/statuses/16643758111

  3. on 21 Jun 2010 at 1:36 pm 3.Mike said …

    “never mentions NASCAR, or cars, or even crude oil.”

    Why would it? The line of reasoning gets funnier by the month.

    Maybe the next blog post could be “Alert: Bible does not mention Breakfast Cereal”

  4. on 21 Jun 2010 at 2:51 pm 4.Anonymous said …

    [quote]
    “never mentions NASCAR, or cars, or even crude oil.”

    Why would it? The line of reasoning gets funnier by the month.

    Maybe the next blog post could be “Alert: Bible does not mention Breakfast Cereal”
    [/quote]
    I agree, that line of reasoning is ridiculous. I hope he wasn’t being serious.
    A better argument would be all of the non-scientific information in the bible, which is mainly because the bible came before modern science.

  5. on 21 Jun 2010 at 2:52 pm 5.Anonymous said …

    test

  6. on 21 Jun 2010 at 5:30 pm 6.Flipper said …

    >I agree, that line of reasoning is ridiculous.

    The Bible mentions talking snakes and talking donkeys and floods that never happened and Jesus who never existed and heaven and hell that are imaginary, but it never mentions crude oil. Crude oil being really useful and an essential part of the economy. That doesn’t strike you as weird?

  7. on 21 Jun 2010 at 7:35 pm 7.PulRalSol said …

    Practicality is obviously not god’s forte…

  8. on 21 Jun 2010 at 9:24 pm 8.Martin said …

    “The Bible mentions talking snakes and talking donkeys and floods that never happened and Jesus who never existed and heaven and hell that are imaginary, but it never mentions crude oil. Crude oil being really useful and an essential part of the economy. That doesn’t strike you as weird?”

    Not to mention things like nuclear power and other 21st century issues. You would think an omnipotent being would see that comming, wouldn’t you?

  9. on 21 Jun 2010 at 9:32 pm 9.Martin said …

    What I find funniest of all is that bible thumpers claim that EVERYTHING we need to live by is in the bible, that is until we present information to the contrary, then our line of reasoning is somehow flawed.

    My favorite is the argument that god is both omnipotent and omniscient, when in fact he can not be both at the same time. Logic simply won’t allow for it. Now, I’ll leave that one open to the faith-heads to contest, then I’ll come back with the proof.

  10. on 21 Jun 2010 at 11:04 pm 10.Rostam said …

    The bible mentions the Big Bang right off the bat. Wouldn’t that be a little more significant? The Big Bang violates logic, scientific law and no man was there to witness the event. A little more impressive that NASCAR.

    A majority of NASCAR drivers are Christian. Maybe that is something right there.

  11. on 21 Jun 2010 at 11:34 pm 11.Anonymous said …

    Rostam, how old is the Universe?

  12. on 22 Jun 2010 at 6:14 am 12.Severin said …

    10 Rostam
    “The Big Bang violates logic, scientific law and no man was there to witness the event.”

    Fantastic!
    The BB violates logic!

    Making man from mud, talking snakes, spreading of people over the earth by inbreeding (incest), resurrection, Jesus’ PHYSICAL going to heaven (where is it?), kangaroos on Noah’s ark… etc,etc…
    do not violates logic?!

    How old are YOU?

  13. on 22 Jun 2010 at 7:15 pm 13.Mac said …

    You are all not interested in finding an answer. You are look at minute details that are not essential to salvation. The big bang has more contradictions than God’s creation. So many of you are ignorant… I will challenge any of you to prove it to me! If you can convince me that it’s all fake i will give up my faith right now. I used to smoke weed and have sex and all that stuff… Then I met Jesus and he changed me and that just can’t be made up. And if u don’t believe my testimony then I don’t need that. I can just use scientific historiography… I will use your science to prove Jesus died on a cross and resurrected 3 days later… Prove it to me!

  14. on 22 Jun 2010 at 8:18 pm 14.Observer said …

    Mac, or as you say, sober and celibate (sorry things turned out that way for you pal), where are the contradictions in the Big Bang? Genesis is full of nonsense, with the occurrence of birds before land creatures as one of the early mistakes. ( And before you start an argument about paleontology and stratigraphy, which you are not versed in, to support Genesis, please give us a couple, or more if you have them, contradictions in the Big Bang. ) Of course, Genesis gives us disgusting folk like Lot getting God’s go-ahead to grind-out grunt sessions with each of his daughters. Lovely stuff.

  15. on 22 Jun 2010 at 8:19 pm 15.Observer said …

    Mac, Am I just missing the Big Picture and salvation?

  16. on 22 Jun 2010 at 9:40 pm 16.Martin said …

    “I used to smoke weed and have sex and all that stuff”

    Dude, if believing in Jesus means I gotta give up sex, count me OUT!

    And, Mac, please, without using all that faith mumbo jumbo, tell me what I am missing out on here….

    I know a LOT of men who used to smoke pot, do drugs, and weren’t good people who have turned their lives around, without falling for the whole god delusion.

  17. on 26 Jun 2010 at 12:30 am 17.Marvin H said …

    Know this: I do not attack you or any atheist. No one can claim to understand God unless God calls them. God’s call has nothing to do with merit. He called me despite my extreme wickedness and He keeps me from making destructive decisions because He saved me. I only want to share the truth. I do however attack pretentious ideas that only exist to confuse or detract from pertinent issues.

    Atheism’s existence is based on haughty questions and NO true answers. It is similar to the law that is practiced in American courts–don’t seek the truth, but rather cast doubt. Saying God doesn’t exist does NOT answer a lot of questions. Asking why God doesn’t heal amputees is akin to asking why he doesn’t answer prayers to let us fly.

    God does not answer prayers that violate spiritual/physical parallels. In the bible, being “cut off” is ALWAYS permanent when pertaining to individuals. If you need clarification, I will be happy to provide it, but it is actually for another post.

    Your desire to have NASCAR mentioned in the bible shows the narcissism of Americans. Mentioning an event that remains largely insignificant to those outside of the U.S. has nothing to do with the overall scheme of world history or the salvation of mankind.

    Answer this: If the book of Revelation was written over 1900 years ago, how could John possibly comprehend the future reality of television? In Chapter 11 it mentions that two prophets will irritate the world with proclamations of truth, but the Beast will “kill” them. Upon their death, “For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.”

    How could men from every people possibly gaze upon their bodies? It was previously a verse that many said could not be taken literally–until the invention of television (where people watch NASCAR).

  18. on 26 Jun 2010 at 7:02 am 18.Severin said …

    13 Mac
    “I will use your science to prove Jesus died on a cross and resurrected 3 days later…”

    If it happened that way, then think: WHY did jesus die?

    Short “historiography” of the event:

    1. God noticed people were doing sins
    2. He punished the whole population by killing it in the big flood. He could do something better if he was an „allmighty“ (heart attack for sinners), but he enjoyed seeing innocent babies drowning (innocent horses and goats too)
    3. IT DID NOT WORK! People started to sin again! God killed millions of people, including children, horses and goats, FOR NOTHING.
    4. Then he understood HE would be satisfied if he additionally killed his own son. He did it! He sacrificed his own son to HIMSELF, to please HIMSELF to „pardon“ people of sins. It must be that he enjoyed a lot looking his son on the cross.
    5. People did not stop doing sins!

    WHY did god all those crimes? FOR NOTHING!

  19. on 26 Jun 2010 at 9:50 am 19.Severin said …

    17 Marvin H
    “Answer this: If the book of Revelation was written over 1900 years ago, how could John possibly comprehend the future reality of television?“

    You better answer this: if some John wrote the Bible (or part of it), then WHY is it a relevant book?
    Why is it more relevant than ANY other book, historical, religious, or any other (Kur’an?)?
    Why would we trust it?
    Why should we take it as our moral guide?

    I was told the Bible was direct word of god.
    If THAT was true, an allmighty should teach us something better than how to kill desobediant children or deflorated brides.
    He, for example, could say something about personal or common hygiene, which he never did.
    Instead, he „taught“ us in details how to do burnt sacrifices for him (to which korner of the temple to spray the animal blood).

  20. on 26 Jun 2010 at 10:00 am 20.Severin said …

    17 Marvin H
    “…because He saved me.”

    Very arrogant!

    God personally kiled millions of innocent children together with other people who sinned (big flood).
    Then he allowed millions of other innocent children (and millions of adult true believers) to die from hunger and diseases.

    Then he chose to save YOU!

    What makes you so special in god’s eyes?

    Why didn’t he choose to save my friend’s 11 months old baby?

  21. on 26 Jun 2010 at 5:41 pm 21.Marvin H said …

    Severin,

    Kindness to you as we share faith.

    Please, let’s tone things down a bit here. I realize we may never agree, but can we share in an attempt to grow. I do credit atheists with spurring me on toward deeper thought about my faith and about the hypocrisy I see when I look in the mirror (and my need to remedy it on an increasing basis as I grow as a Christian).

    I made no personal attacks against anyone, yet you call me arrogant. The gift of salvation is open to everyone. I said he saved me DESPITE my wickedness, not because of my goodness. If I had said I was good, then that would be arrogant. My being thankful for God saving me is no more arrogant than a person thanking a firefighter for using the jaws of life to save her from a burning wreck, even though it was impossible to save her brother in the same wreck. Would it be right for the surviving sister to spit in the face of the firefighter? I know the “God is supposed to be sovereign” argument will arise, but realistically, how much do we expect Him to intervene when we basically give him the middle finger every day in our thoughts, actions, and even our entertainment choices?

    People always ask, “What about the people who never heard?” Well, if people are so concerned about people who have never heard, then they need to join the cause and heed Christ’s command to go overseas make disciples of all nations. Sitting around debating about what happens to those who have never heard is like a group of doctors debating what would happen if the gunshot wound victim before them gets no treatment or letting him die because other doctors have failed in saving other gunshot victims.

    Salvation was open to all the people of Noah’s generation, but they scoffed at him and derided him as he built the ark. How were they “innocent?” If he had not warned them, then they would not be guilty.

    God did speak of hygiene, hence all the ceremonial washings. The washings and food prohibitions were, in part, ahead of the times. Doctors in the 1800′s who spoke of the need to wash before eating and performing operations because of the presence of unseen “germs” were derided.

    About your friend’s 11 month old baby–I dare not speak of the grief that others suffer. I battled cancer, so I feel comfortable giving counsel to cancer victims; however, I have not lost a baby, so I will remain silent on that issue out of respect for the grief your friend suffered.

    I do have Christian friends who have miscarried, given birth to babies who died within the first week, given birth to babies with birth defects, and who have lost spouses within months of being first married. All them praised God in the end, refusing to blame God for what sin and Satan has wrought forth in the world. I stood in amazement as they did so. They would be the ones to answer your question, not me.

    You mentioned that it is wrong for God to kill “innocent,” disobedient teenagers and fornicators. I am at a loss. Where do we draw the line? If you caught your neighbor defiling your marriage bed, would you shrug your shoulders and say, “feel free to use my bed anytime.”? How about if your daughter was gang raped? Would they be “innocent”? How about if your teenage son beat your wife? Is he “innocent”?

    We really need to ask ourselves how much we want God to intervene. Asking God to take care of all the injustices in the world would require Him to kill all sinners, including you and me. Why are there people starving even though there are hundreds of relief organizations? Well, isn’t because of corrupt governments? He would have to kill them. What makes the housing market collapse? Isn’t it greed? Well greedy people need to die, then, too. Don’t corporations suffer millions of dollars in losses each year due to employee theft? Well, they need to die, too. How many accidents are caused by drunk drivers? Should they die, or are they “innocent”? Should the drug pusher who caused ones daughter to OD heroin be considered “innocent”? If you answered “no” to the idea of declaring any of these people innocent, we have a problem on our hands.

    If God did exist, how do you proposed that He saves all the “innocent” without letting others suffer the ill effects of others’ selfish choices? Where do we draw the line? How much do we REALLY want God to intervene to eradicate sickness, accidents, and death?

    Why is there suffering if God is sovereign? The book of Hebrews says, “In putting everything under [Jesus], God left nothing that is not subject to him. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him.”

    We will not see everything subject to Him until He returns in glory. At that time he promises that “he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

    Jesus promised suffering in this life. All the injustices and pain and suffering we see has been foretold. We have NO guarantee of a pain free life before Jesus returns. In fact, because of Satan’s fury, we do suffer. If we really want suffering to end, we need to live holy lives and speed his return.

    Blessings to you, Severin.

  22. on 26 Jun 2010 at 7:27 pm 22.Marvin H said …

    Severin,

    By the way, I did answer your question in the previous post as to why we should take the Bible more seriously than other books. If John was able to foresee the advent of television (although not necessarily NASCAR), then that may be an indication that other predictions (like Jesus’ return) is likely to come true. The bible also predicted that Israel would exist upon Jesus’ return; for over a thousand years (after Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 A.D.) Christians thought it was a figurative Jerusalem to which He would return; however, Jesus meant exactly what He said, and Israel was restored in 1948.

    If I successfully answer a question, kindly acknowledge it instead of creating another smokescreen question. I will make an honest effort to do the same, and if I cannot, I will direct you to those who have the right to speak on it.

    Marvin

  23. on 26 Jun 2010 at 7:36 pm 23.Martin said …

    Marvin, I want to commend you for making EVERY Christian appologist argument known to man. I am certain that you make your Christian family proud.

    “We really need to ask ourselves how much we want God to intervene.”

    How about we ask god to intervene in ANY way at all. There is NO evidence that god intervenes in our daily lives at all. NO empirical evidence, certainly not in the “power” of prayer. Study after study shows that there is NO evidence of prayer working. I’m afraid that IF god would intervene just ONE time, I bet your argument would carry MUCH more weight.

  24. on 26 Jun 2010 at 7:39 pm 24.Martin said …

    “we need to live holy lives and speed his return.”

    EVERY Christian ever born has been waiting for Jesus to return. Ain’t gonna happen, cap’n.

  25. on 26 Jun 2010 at 8:02 pm 25.Marvin H said …

    Martin,

    Why the sarcasm? I do not say anything about you and your family, so why are you attacking me in such a manner? Could you kindly stick to arguing the points instead of commenting on what my family thinks of me?

    What study shows that there is NO evidence that prayer works? I’ve not seen such a study. Kindly provide links or references. I get frustrated with this kind of thinking because whenever someone is losing an argument, people just say there is NO evidence for something. Give me evidence that God has NEVER answered a prayer. Talk to Christian friends who have kept prayer journals and show me that EVERY single one of their prayers went unanswered. You might say similar “good” things have happened to unbelievers. That’s true. God is kind to the righteous and unrighteous-but the righteous are blessed with a grateful heart whereas the unbelievers tend to (not always) seethe.

    Regarding your comment that Jesus isn’t going to return… I assure you, He will. II Peter mentions

    First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

    But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”

    Martin, pray that God would reveal Himself to your heart (in sincerity) and begin reading the word each day for as much time permits and see if His Spirit does not speak to yours.

    Warmly,

    Marvin

  26. on 26 Jun 2010 at 8:04 pm 26.Marvin H said …

    Martin,

    By the way, were you EVER a follower of Christ (and became disenfranchised) or did you always believe that this physical world is all that exists? It is a sincere question. I’m trying to understand things here.

    Marvin

  27. on 26 Jun 2010 at 8:13 pm 27.Marvin H said …

    What kind of “answered prayer” are you looking for?

  28. on 26 Jun 2010 at 8:21 pm 28.Martin said …

    First off, saying your Christian family is proud of you is NOT attacking you or being sarcastic, it was a sincere compliment, but as I’ve shown time and again, Christians are the easiest people to offend on the face of the planet. I think it comes from some sense of entitlement that has been given to the religious throughout history. So ease up there, sport, no one is attacking you.

    The study I refer to was funded by the Templeton Foundation, a Christian group, and was led by Dr. Benson, a cardiologist, monitored 1,802 cardiac patients at six hospitals. The study was a double-blind study with three groups. Group one received prayers and didn’t know it, Group two (the control group) received no prayers, and Group three received prayers and were told they were being prayed for.

    Prayers were said in three churches spread in Minnesotta, Massachuetts, and Missouri. All those who prayed were given NO information about the individuals they were praying for other than the first name and last initial. They were asked to pray for a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications.

    The results were published in the American Heart Journal in April 2006. There was NO difference in the health of patients who had been prayed for and those who had not been prayed for, in the groups who did not know they were being prayed or not prayed for. However, in the group who knew they were being prayed for, the results were stunning. This group has significantly MORE complications and did not recover as well or as quickly as either of the other groups. You are welcome to read more about it, either on-line or in Richard Dawkins wonderful book, The god delusion.

    Now, as to your final question, I was reared in a Christian home in the Deep Deep South, the Bible Belt. I did not become “disenfranchised” as you put it, I simply grew up and became educated. I have found no empirical evidence in the existence of a god, and do not anticipate finding any.

    As for your wish for me to pray sincerly, I assure you that NO ONE wanted to believe more than I did, the facts simply do not allow my mind to believe. As Dan Barker, a very good friend of mine said, “I have lost faith in faith.”

    Peace

  29. on 26 Jun 2010 at 8:24 pm 29.Martin said …

    “What kind of “answered prayer” are you looking for?

    How about ANY answered prayer, any one will do. Prove that it was god who answered it, under the same scrutiny that we prove any other claim, and I’ll buy it.

    What I have a problem with in prayer is Jesus’ promise that EVERY prayer, and that NOTHING asked in his name, would be denied. I asked for many things in the name of Jesus, and never, once got what I prayed for in Jesus’ name. And trust me I was sincere at the time, very sincere.

  30. on 26 Jun 2010 at 8:38 pm 30.Severin said …

    Marvin,
    God which generally suports slavery can not be a good god. Especially not one who allows selling of people’s own daughters to slavery, giving precise instructions what to do in different cases. God which orders killing of previously deflowered brides can be only a monster.
    God which was supposed to be allmighty, and did NOT prevent sins by any other way but by killing millions of people in a flood, many innocent children among them, many innocent people (non sinners) among them too, and all animals (which by definition can not sin), could be only a blood thirsty monster. A sadist lunatic.
    What to say for a god who orders putting of children form cradles „on sabres“, raping of women of defeated nation (town) and stealing of their goods (kill, burn, rape, destroy, but take good things for yourself).

    Finally, god who sacrifices his own son to please HIMSELF can be only a monstrous sick lunatic.
    WHAT parents sacrifices their own children for ANY reason?
    We know for such cases, unfortunately, but we have names for them, and not the nice ones!

    If such god appeared before me today and proved he was a god, I would spit in his face and told him I was better person than he ever was.
    Because I do not hate anyone and I would never kill anyone.

  31. on 26 Jun 2010 at 8:56 pm 31.Martin said …

    Tell you what Marvin, if you are interested in a debate over god, then let’s keep it to science and reason. We can take out the nasties of the bible, forget them, we can simply debate from logic, if you like. How do you feel about the Kalam Cosmological Argument? Do you agree that ever effect must have a cause? The cause of the universe, from a Christian perspective is God, but what is the cause of God? If God is the only thing ever to exist without a cause, how do you prove that? Perhaps there are many things that began without a cause, if God can, then surely other things can too, right? So, maybe the universe began without a cause?

  32. on 26 Jun 2010 at 9:01 pm 32.Martin said …

    Then, using LOGIC, and I can set this up for you using sets of objects, but suffice it to say that LOGIC, precludes the existence of god. IF there is only ONE, GOD, in the set of possibilities of things that did not have a cause, then you are simply doing the Christian thing and begging the question or making circular logical statements. However, if you conceded that there might be more than ONE, GOD, in the set of possible things that did not have a cause or beginning, then you have to accept the possibility that the universe, itself, COULD be one of those possibilities of things began without a cause or creator. If that’s so, then there is no need for a god.

  33. on 26 Jun 2010 at 9:05 pm 33.Marvin H said …

    Martin,

    If I seemed defensive, I apologize, but the remark about how I made the same arguments as EVERY other apologist prompted me to take the compliment in a less than sincere fashion.

    Thank you for taking the time to give the information I asked for. I did see that study. We have to see the pattern for answered prayer. Jesus said, “If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you.” I think the preface “my words remain in you” is very critical. It keeps us from praying things for our benefit. It struck me as odd that Jesus refrained from turning rocks into bread at the prompting of Satan. Certainly doing so seems legit, especially after a 40 day fast; however, He set a pattern. Prayer is NOT for self-edification. Now when Jesus prayed before giving the fish and the loaves, He did so because he cared about the glory of God and about the people who would otherwise faint on the way home.

    There are plenty of rebukes by Christ against those looking for a sign or for praying for selfish desires. I don’t think Christ ever meant for prayer to be a blank check because His statements make it clear that there are conditions. Even Paul pleaded with God three times to take the thorn from his flesh, and God answered no, saying that His grace was sufficient.

    I think many people make accusations against God by putting words into His mouth–making Him seem to have made promises that He never made.

    I’ve seen people like you (who grew up in a Christian environment) who “walked away” from the “faith” only to have an epiphany later in life (kind of like Saul of Tarsus minus the flashing light and falling off the horse). I am one of them. I totally lost faith in faith for a period of four years. Christ then reached down to me and showed me that faith needs to be in Him.

    Once you’ve met the person of Christ in your mind, heart, and soul, it becomes extremely difficult to deny the drastic changes that take place in the heart. I think this ultimate release from the need to tame endless discontent of the soul becomes more persuasive than any “logical” argument against faith. This is not to say that faith is illogical, but logic is not the basis of my faith. Logic just confirms it and vice versa.

    My wife and I grieve for the wandering or disenfranchised Christians (or “educated) that we met in the Far East and long to return to help them. Some have been restored; some are on their way; and some may ultimately decide against returning. In any event, my heart is heavy for you (because I was there) and I am reminded of James 5:19-20. I may not be the one to prompt another journey for you, but I pray other Christians will bless your path and never do anything other than express kindness to you, your family, and your friends–this is what brought me back. May the same happen to you.

    Kindly,

    Marvin

  34. on 26 Jun 2010 at 9:06 pm 34.Martin said …

    Finally, a question to you.

    What, with all the thousands of gods throughout history, makes you certain that your god is more real than say, Aten, or Zeus, or Mithra, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Think about it, you can’t say because the bible tells you, each of those religions has a “bible” of some degree, each has a god, a group of believers, a doctrine, a belief system, many of them have Jesus like figures, a belief in the afterlife, a moral code of some sort, and the list goes on.

    The fact is, Christianity has copied more from ancient religions than ANY other religion before or since. You can find a corresponding event in Christianity in nearly a dozen ancient religions, outdating Christianity by a thousand years. Why?

  35. on 26 Jun 2010 at 9:13 pm 35.Martin said …

    Thank you Marvin for your kind wishes, though very misplaced. I assure you that I have no intentions of “finding my way” back to anything religious, EVER.

    What I find AMAZING is how the actual words written in the bible can be held up by some as being more or less than they are depending on the “need” at the moment. Think about it, how many times has mankind prayed to god for relief from cancer, and yet it still exists. What of war, or what of that parent whose child is dying of cancer in the hospital, do you think for a moment that those parents do not pray in earnest? What will you say that they are being selfish, praying for their children’s lives? What of every Sunday, when millions of people pray for the sick and dying, are they being selfish for their prayers? What of their prayers for anyone, aren’t they selfish in some definition or another?

    Isn’t EVERY prayer that requests something from god, selfish in some way? And, are you saying that ALL the people in history who have prayed for peace, or health, or something else, that NONE of them held Jesus in themselves? Surely, someone would have met the requirement, otherwise, why promise in the bible if it will never happen.

  36. on 26 Jun 2010 at 9:14 pm 36.Marvin H said …

    Martin,

    I didn’t see the post about using logic and the Kalam Cosmological Argument.

    I will concede that no one will come to Christ based on a logical argument. Paul himself said that he resolved to know nothing except Christ and Christ crucified (staying away from “logical” or human arguments). I’ve seen other prominent Christians try to debate using logic, and invariably pride sets in, and the Christian ends up resorting to personal attacks or anger.

    I am not so bold as to think that I can use logic to win someone over if Paul the apostle thought he couldn’t do it. It might seem like a cop out, but I believe I’m making a scriptural choice.

    Like I said, logic doesn’t produce faith, but it doesn’t negate it, either. It’s kind of like the invention of the microscope–logic doesn’t provide solid evidence of what pathogen may be attacking a person; the microscope does. Logic doesn’t provide solid evidence for the power of the Holy Spirit (which Scripture likens unto wind), but when He comes, everything is seen much more clearly.

    I will look at the Kalam Cosmological Argument for my own edification, but if it (or the refutation of it) becomes the basis of my faith or the basis of my attempts to convert others, I have become a fool.

    Marvin

  37. on 26 Jun 2010 at 9:26 pm 37.Marvin H said …

    Martin,

    Regarding the motives of the heart, I cannot speak for all people, of course. I’ve seen Christians pray and receive clear answers. I’m not going to dare say that they were more worthy than my Christian friend who has been suffering with chronic back pain for 30 years with no real (tangible) answer to prayer. What amazes me is they all praise God with fervor and concern themselves with reaching and serving others despite the answers they may or may not receive.

    Regarding Christianity being newer than other religions–this is true. Jesus expanded on the teachings of Judaism which went back around 4,000 years before He revealed Himself.

    The fact that all the major religions have striking similarities poses no problem. Man was made in the image of God and therefore has some inkling of who He is by nature. The Hindu text, the Bhagavad Gita reads like Isaiah in some places. If the story of the Tower of Babel is true, then this similarity makes sense. When people were scattered, they retained some remembrance of Judaic thought and intermingled it with their own being in the (albeit fallen) image of God. However, no one has the ability to come to a full attainment of God without the “feet of good news” bringing full revelation of Jesus.

    It may be a while until I respond. Until then, take care.

    Marvin

  38. on 26 Jun 2010 at 9:29 pm 38.Marvin H said …

    Martin,

    One last thing. You keep mentioning the presence of evil and that if God exists, then He is either warped or cruel. What is your belief on Satan? I mean attacking God on the basis of the Bible without mentioning a prominent figure on the Bible seems incomplete at best.

    Marvin

  39. on 26 Jun 2010 at 9:37 pm 39.Marvin H said …

    Severin,

    Could you kindly show me a non-sinner? I’ve never met one. I being factitious against the notion but not malicious against you. If you don’t admit that we’ve all sinned, then any further discussion about the justice of God is moot.

    Regarding the pillaging of other peoples, I do have “answers,” but if we cannot agree that we are all sinners worthy of eternal torment in hell at this very moment, then we have no premise for logical discussion on this matter.

    Wow. You would spit in His face? That is self-righteousness in the extreme. We are dust. Who are we to speak back to a holy God at all (and place accusations against whom we have slandered since our youths)?

    All I can do is pray at this point–the bible says that God’s kindness leads us to repentance. May you experience that kindness until you ask of God, “Why are you being so good to me?”

    Marvin

  40. on 27 Jun 2010 at 12:10 am 40.Rostam said …

    #28

    “The study I refer to was funded by the Templeton Foundation, a Christian group, and was led by Dr. Benson, a cardiologist, monitored 1,802 cardiac patients at six hospitals.”

    You study is moot. As a Christian at one time, you would know the Bible states on more than one occasion not to test the Lord your God. God will not be a part of your study.

    Your study is irrelevant and invalid.

  41. on 27 Jun 2010 at 12:15 am 41.Rostam said …

    “if you are interested in a debate over god, then let’s keep it to science and reason.”

    Invalid reasoning. You attempt to portray the Bible as not valid for science and reason however the debate has not established such facts, You now attempt to force the opponent to debate on your terms and your reality. This not acceptable for proper debate.

  42. on 27 Jun 2010 at 7:21 am 42.Severin said …

    39 Marvin H
    Before we continue, I have to ask you: do you take the Bible literally?
    Do you REALLY believe some god came from nowhere, created” the earth, then picked mud (dust, dirt) to make a man, then took his rib to make a woman?
    Do you REALLY think god ordered A&E to multiply, without providing another pool of genes (at least an additional pair of humans, with different genes), so their multiplying was based on inbreeding (on sex among brothers and sisters)?
    Do you think dinos walked over the earth together with A&E?
    Do you take the big flood as reality?
    How old is the earth according to your belief?

    If you need information about what I believe, please ask, but I am sure you can guess it from my quuestions.
    You are, of course, free to ask me what you want, and I will answer you the best way I know.

  43. on 27 Jun 2010 at 11:47 am 43.Marvin H said …

    Severin,

    I do believe all those things that you consider unbelievable. The earth itself may be older than 6,000 years, but life on earth began roughly 6,000 years ago.

    Tone is a difficult thing to convey in e-mail, so take the following in a sincere, but firm (however not condescending tone).

    Before I begin, I will admit that I am frustrated however,since I feel cheated by all the lies about evolution that my public school teachers forced me to learn when I was younger. I had so many questions that I was afraid to ask. When I went to college and finally had the guts to confront my professors, I was marginalized and I forfeited my chance to graduate with honors.

    The distinction between species is way too great to lend a plausible explanation toward evolution. Okay, so scientists found ONE anomaly that they pin their entire existence upon-the duck billed platypus. If people want to place the meaning of life on a strange creature, then let them have at it, but please don’t call it science. It’s called conjecture because science demands data by repetition and none of us can repeat the forming of the earth. No matter how you slice it, we’re all living by faith.

    Think about this: If man has been around for millions of years, then why is it we only have documents (from any culture) that date no further back than a little over 5,000 years? If evolution is true, then some societies should have developed exponentially faster than others and some society out there should have had decent scribes before 6,000 years ago. Historians just say that it’s a “prehistoric” era. I agree, because going back more than 6,000 years would show that there was no history to be written because no one was there. How else do we explain that all of a sudden that all people groups that were scattered throughout the earth decided to start writing things down around 5,500 years ago? Did they telepathically say to each other,”Okay guys, let’s start writing things down…right…..NOW”?

    Archeology is a sham. How “scientists” can write volumes about a culture based on a cracked bowl that was excavated in a middle of a desert or on a tooth that supposedly belonged to one of our ancestors (later found to belong to a pig) is just a desperate attempt of man trying to escape one thing–we are going to stand naked before God on judgment day, and there’s only One person that can advocate for us to keep us from justly going to hell for all that we have done wrong or all the right that we have failed to do–his name is Jesus Christ.

    If God doesn’t exist (or if He does and you’d spit in His face), then who is Jesus Christ? You do agree that he is a historical figure, don’t you?

    I have an answer as to why God allows suffering in this life… the vast majority of people living on earth CHOOSE to suffer. We CHOOSE to suffer and cause others to suffer because we are selfish and would rather hold up live for our fleshly desires than humble ourselves and kneel before a God who has been revealing Himself and His plan of salvation from the day we initially spit in His face. One person’s selfish act affects the “innocent” in exponential ways. We just don’t like to think about it. Suffering exists on earth because of sin. It’s my fault; it’s your fault, and it’s OUR fault.

  44. on 27 Jun 2010 at 2:08 pm 44.Severin said …

    43 Marvin H
    “I feel cheated by all the lies about evolution….“

    How is it that you do not feel cheated with vaccines, GPS, etc, and do take evolution as lie?
    Or, sorry, maybe you DO take scientists other that those dealing with evolution also lying? In that case, if you have your mobile phone, why don’t you just throw it away? It is BASED ON SCIENCE!
    But, if you take ONLY scientists dealing with evolution as liers, try to explaint just WHY would they have interest to lie, and other scientists to tell us the truth?

    So you DO NOT trust carbon dating? WHY would anyone have interest to inform you sincerely about vaccines and GPS system, and to lie when talking carbon dating?
    Of course, beside carbon dating (for objects containing organic matter), there are many other accurate mathods to find the date of forming rocks, minerals, crystals…
    WHY would scientists have interest to lie about those things?

    „The distinction between species is way too great to lend a plausible explanation toward evolution.“
    That is what you think. You forget (or do not want to know) that really MANY fossils were found with intermediate characteristics of species.
    Fossild were found, for example, which tell us that whales and hipos have common ancestors.
    You also forget that there is no such a thing as „missing link“. The existing species ALL have common ancestor(s), but ALL of them died in past. Some of them is possible to find as fossils, some not (yet, maybe never), but WHY would we neglect ability of well trained scientists to reconstruct the past of species?
    WHAT are the sources priests “reconstruct” religion?
    Totally untrained (ignorant!) priests „reconstruct“ religion from old unreliable books, written by unreliable people!
    The evolution is NOT a straight line, but an tremendously branched tree. The existing species are the ONLY small green spots on the tops of the thiniest branches – all other branches are dissapeared.

  45. on 27 Jun 2010 at 2:21 pm 45.Xenon said …

    Marvin,

    I add this just in attempt to save you time. Severin has been educated on the difference between historical sciences and observational Sciences but he continually ignores the differences and literally refuses to acknowledge the methodologies. Just trying to save you heartache.

    Your post was well though out and articulated.

  46. on 27 Jun 2010 at 2:29 pm 46.Severin said …

    43 Marvin H
    “If man has been around for millions of years, then why is it we only have documents (from any culture) that date no further back than a little over 5,000 years?”

    We do not have any written documents older than 6000 years BECAUSE HUMANS DID NOT LEARN HOW TO WRITE before that time.
    Some of them had primitive signs to record something or to send a message far before the real writing was invented. Such primitive signs were found on many artefacts (primitive calendars, primitive records of stocked goods…).
    Time AND circumstances were necessary to develop real writing. Some civilisations developed it sooner, some later, some of them did not go further than ideograms (South Amwerican civilisations), and some of them NEVER learned the art of writing.
    Physically and mentally, Aborigines or people from Polynesia, or Eskimos, ARE homo sapiens (many of them graduated university levels, and as all other people, they have their IQ in the same range as all other humans).
    However, they DID NOT DEVELOP written communication during some 40,000 years of their history! They have NEVER learnt to write alone! They first saw and understood writing when they were “discovered” by other humans.
    BUT (!) they understood and accepted it IMMEDIATELY.

    Just WHY is it necessary all human communities to develop writnig at the same moment of history?

  47. on 27 Jun 2010 at 2:30 pm 47.Martin said …

    “The distinction between species is way too great to lend a plausible explanation toward evolution.”

    And, this is what theist pin their entire argument on, some crazy notion that the whole diversity of life is somehow designed. It is that very notion that makes god so improbable in the first place. Any being who has the complexity to design such complexity, is in himself a complex being beyond possibility.

    What theists fail to understand is that evolution is a slow process, a very slow process, taking literally billions of years. It is a matter of statistical probability that all things are as they are.

    To believe that life began on this planet just six thousand years ago, shows a great lacking of education and understanding. What it shows is a matter of “god of the gaps” understanding of the whole complexity of the natural world. What science is unable to explain, theist automatically fill in the gaps with god, then when a gap is filled in with science, theists just look for another gap to insert their god in. It’s sad really.

  48. on 27 Jun 2010 at 2:37 pm 48.Martin said …

    “Invalid reasoning. You attempt to portray the Bible as not valid for science and reason however the debate has not established such facts, You now attempt to force the opponent to debate on your terms and your reality. This not acceptable for proper debate.”

    Again, you show you lack of intelligence, and again, I refuse to be drawn into a pissing match with an inferior intellect. As you once said, “Grow up and debate with the big boys” or something to that effect.

    Theists have been setting the boundaries for debates over religion for centuries, and when a reasonalbe person asks for the same, it suddenly become unacceptable. You are funny if nothing else.

  49. on 27 Jun 2010 at 2:43 pm 49.Martin said …

    “If man has been around for millions of years, then why is it we only have documents (from any culture) that date no further back than a little over 5,000 years?”

    Again, perfect example of “god of the gaps” thinking. What is funny is that most educated theologians have given up on the idea of the 6,000 year myth long ago, especially as science has filled in many of the gaps.

  50. on 27 Jun 2010 at 2:51 pm 50.Martin said …

    “You study is moot. As a Christian at one time, you would know the Bible states on more than one occasion not to test the Lord your God. God will not be a part of your study.

    Your study is irrelevant and invalid.”

    This is again, GREAT fodder from the religious side of the house. Your response is PERFECT and DEPENDABLE if nothing else. Dismiss a study by a religious group, but what would you have said if the results had been different? The study was doomed from the start, where theists were concerned. I have also read in that same bible of yours that according to Jesus, NOTHING asked in his name will be denied. That EVERY prayer is answered is an obvious LIE, and all the religious rationalizing in the world can’t change that.

    Stooping to dismissing the works of others, simply as a matter of what is said in the bible, exposes yet another flaw. If you say that it’s the way it is because of the bible, then why not stone kids for disobeying a parent, that too is in the bible. Or the owning of slaves, which Jesus himself condoned, that is in your bible, too. How do you defend that?

  51. on 27 Jun 2010 at 2:55 pm 51.Martin said …

    I do have to say that I LOVE when Christian groups do this so called “scientific” studies that fail, then they do like the kid who claims to be the greatest hitter in the world by throwing the ball in the air, and when he “strikes out” he suddenly becomes the greatest pitcher in the world.

    That’s making lemonade out of lemons if ever there was.

  52. on 27 Jun 2010 at 2:55 pm 52.Severin said …

    45 Xenon

    So, to keep the “right” methodology, I should trust priests instead scientists?
    Or I should neglect carbon dating and other matehods, and take words of ignorant quasy-scientists that earth is 6000 years old?

    Thank you, Xenon, I leave such “methods” to you.

  53. on 27 Jun 2010 at 3:02 pm 53.Severin said …

    43 Marvin H
    “How else do we explain that all of a sudden that all people groups that were scattered throughout the earth decided to start writing things down around 5,500 years ago?”
    That is, of course, nonsense.
    I just showed you the oposite: see Aborigines, Eskimos…

    So, it DID NOT happen “all of a sudden”, but distributed in history according to circumstances people used to live in and their needs.

  54. on 27 Jun 2010 at 3:07 pm 54.Martin said …

    “I am not so bold as to think that I can use logic to win someone over if Paul the apostle thought he couldn’t do it. It might seem like a cop out, but I believe I’m making a scriptural choice.”

    I’m sorry, I will agree that for his time, Paul was an intelligent man, but to compare my intellect with Paul’s is an insult. You do realize that Paul didn’t know the earth was round, he had no knowledge of micro-organisms, no understanding of the universe, no grasp of higher mathematics, and the list goes on. To compare one’s understanding of anything with that of the ancients, is surely demeaning oneself, in my humble opinion.

    As for the devil, I do not mention him simply becasue as with god, I do not believe he exists. I believe that the devil is a construct of man, as is god, to be the fall guy for this perfect god that man has created. You can’t have a perfect god unless you have someone or something in which to “blame” all the evils of the world on; otherwise, you have to blame god himself.

    What I find truly amazing is that rational, well at least on the outside, people actually think that there could be someone or something so complex as to be able to do all that god is supposed to do. If you think of it, logically and mathematically, the probability of his existence is nill. In order for god to exist he would have to be infinitely complex, and no one has yet explained the how he is able to bend the laws of nature, which by the way he would have had to have created in the first place, thus making him even more complex.

    It’s like saying that life on earth had to be designed, but if you think about it from a mathematical sense, life HAD to evolve on earth, and likely has evolved on at least a billion other planets in the universe. I could show you the math, but it’s complicated and long. Not as complicated or complex as god, mind you, but still.

  55. on 27 Jun 2010 at 3:13 pm 55.Martin said …

    “How else do we explain that all of a sudden that all people groups that were scattered throughout the earth decided to start writing things down around 5,500 years ago?”

    Severin, this is the failure of most of mankind, the inability to grasp that all things evolve over time, and that nothing just happens all of a sudden. Well, except perhaps the big bang, on which we are still working.

    Ordinary men, and I was once one of those and there is nothing wrong with it, do not possess the education or understanding of ancient time. To them, ancient time began about 6,000 years ago, because that is about as far back as most men’s brains can grasp. Scientists understand time in a much broader scope, not in thousands of years, but in millions, perhaps billions of years. Darwin explained it best in “The Origins of Man” when he shows that evolution is a very slow process, taking many millions of generations to change one tiny thing. Because our lifespans are so short, it is difficult to understand this, I think.

  56. on 27 Jun 2010 at 3:23 pm 56.Martin said …

    “If God doesn’t exist (or if He does and you’d spit in His face), then who is Jesus Christ? You do agree that he is a historical figure, don’t you? ”

    Personally, I believe there were two jesus figures in history, one was a real man who taught and maybe even preached, but did not claim to be the son of god as described in the bible. I believe that he may have sought to be the king of the Jews, or perhaps he was just a very good teacher. Then, I believe that there is the Jesus of Paul’s teachings. Christianity should actually be called Paulanity, because it was the writtings and teachings of Paul that created the Mythical Jesus. Paul gave rise to much of Jesus’s mythological stature.

    Further, I find it amazing at the great lengths that the writers of the New Testament went to in order to show Jesus as a descendent of David, as if that mattered. Paul never once mentions the birth of Jesus in his writings, ever, and yet here we find two separate accounts of Jesus birth in the New Testament.

    My question is this. Why on earth would Rome have wanted to take a census based on the ancestory of someone who was over a thousand years removed. By this I mean, why did Rome have Joseph go to Bethlehem based on his ancestory to David. I’m quite sure the Roman Empire did not know, nor care, that Joseph was a descendent of David. More likely this is a construct of the writer to show lineage AND to prove the Jewish prophesy that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem.

  57. on 27 Jun 2010 at 3:23 pm 57.Severin said …

    Marvin H,
    How is it possible that you have no problems with biblical “morality” and “morality” of your god?
    HOW can you accept god’s crimes?
    How can you trust someone who ordered killing of innocent babies (“put them on sabres”), killing of innocent babies again (big flood), crucifying of his own son, robbering of defeated towns, tollerated selling of own daughters to slavery…?
    Is it some example we should follow?
    Is THAT the morality we should accept?

    I CAN NOT accept such brutal crimes (combined with lunatic sadism) from ANYONE, be it a god or not.
    WHAT makes your god better than Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot…?
    Being a god CAN NOT BE AN EXCUSE FOR DOING SO MUCH EVEL THINGS!
    The bigger power, the bigger responsibility.
    THAT is why Hitler was bigger criminal than Jack the Ripper.
    And THAT is what makes Hitler an innocent baby compared to an allmighty god!

  58. on 27 Jun 2010 at 3:31 pm 58.Severin said …

    No one told me why god needs mediators.

    Why would an allmighty god need priest to find the path to my heart?
    I do not trust priests, but I am ready to accept god instantly if he tells me something directly.

    BY leaving the job to mediators, god only spreads hate among people: each group jelaously keeps its own god and kills in his name members of other groups.
    WHY would I trust them?

  59. on 27 Jun 2010 at 4:02 pm 59.Martin said …

    “Why would an allmighty god need priest to find the path to my heart?
    I do not trust priests, but I am ready to accept god instantly if he tells me something directly.

    BY leaving the job to mediators, god only spreads hate among people: each group jelaously keeps its own god and kills in his name members of other groups.
    WHY would I trust them?”

    EXCELLENT ARGUMENT, SEVERIN, EXCELLENT.

  60. on 27 Jun 2010 at 4:07 pm 60.Martin said …

    I like to think that science and reason uses the same language as religion when we all say, “we can lead you to the truth, but it is up to you to accept it.” Christians use their version of the truth to prove god, and scientists use their version of science to prove he does not exist.

    To me it became a decision – accept fact as my truth or accept what I have been told all my life by a church that has proven itself to be unreliable and controlling. I chose to accept fact, science, and my own reasoning over what has been spoon fed to us for centuries.

    Not ONE theist has been able to give me a factual reason why their god is any less mythical than the god’s of ancients. Marvin’s attempt only PROVES my point, when he said that others took away from Babble the idea of god. And, yet, we KNOW that the gods of those ancient people are false, so why are their gods false, and the Christian god is not? FAITH is the only answer, and that is not good enough for me.

  61. on 27 Jun 2010 at 4:15 pm 61.Martin said …

    The argument that gods like Mithra and countless others were all born from a virgin, with a god-like father, as so obvious. The deities, and Jesus is not expempt, got their divinity from a god, and their humanity from their mortal mothers. We see it in Zeus’ fathering of Hercules.

    This was written by Origen, a Christian writer,

    “For some have thought fit, not in regard to ancient and heroic narratives, but in regard to events of very recent occurrence, to relate as a possible thing that Plato was the son of Amphictione, Ariston being prevented from having marital intercourse with his wife until she had given birth to him with whom she was pregnant by Apollo. And yet these are veritable fables, which have led to the invention of such stories concerning a man whom they regarded as possessing greater wisdom and power than the multitude, and as having received the beginning of his corporeal substance from better and diviner elements than others, because they thought that this was appropriate to persons who were too great to be human beings.”

    Sound familiar?

  62. on 27 Jun 2010 at 10:19 pm 62.Marvin H said …

    Apparently I’m dealing with people who are essentially looking to inflate their egos. I don’t desire to take away your beliefs; I desire to introduce you to Someone. Even if Jesus appeared to you in your living rooms, you would either laugh, spit, or leave. You desire to strip, ridicule, and deride others of their valid (but perhaps not well articulated) beliefs.

    Jesus said you would know people by their fruits. The people in my denomination have actually raised money to GO to Haiti to help (feed, clothe, and medically treat) those who suffered from a calamity we do not fully understand. So far, I’ve only heard atheists blame God for the calamity and have the reasoning that since they cannot save ALL people, it is better to blog about how much they HATE God.

    Atheists have never COLLECTIVELY formed a substantial humanitarian organization (to my knowledge) and will never match the sacrifice of the millions of true Christians who served others selflessly. Even the pagan religions adherents ACT on their teachings by helping others and that will be to their credit on Judgment Day.

    Atheism is based on confusion and pride of intellect. If you grew a debilitating brain tumor, your god (intellect) would come to nothing. If I grew a brain tumor, my God will be in tact just the same as always. I have met nice atheist individuals, but I’ve NEVER seen an atheist organization get their act together to try to tangibly benefit humanity. I have seen atheist organizations (Freedom From Religion) waste resources stopping people from saying a prayer at graduation or at a football game or take down the 10 Commandments from a court room. I’ve seen fellow teachers threatened for mentioning God in class because of laws passed by atheists.

    When I was recovering from cancer, atheists around me spewed hatred toward my God because they lost loved ones to cancer and went on ad nauseam about how much they suffered 20 years ago and such and such , but they offered NOT a single shred or IOTA of help. Christians surrounded me, collected money when I could not work, PRAYED for me (GASP!), brought meals, and kept me company–and this when my faith failed and I told them to leave me alone. They would not. Then I understood. God working through people to bring about healing is just as much a miracle as the “signs and wonders” that atheists scoff doesn’t exist.

    Go ahead and laugh at winning this “argument.” Enjoy winning other arguments while your neighbors around you suffer while you blame God for their suffering. I’m going to help as many as I can by tangible acts of mercy because Jesus loved me enough to give me a long list of real commands-1. Love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and 2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

    Atheists, get off your duffs and form a real organization that helps people instead of mocking their gods and their misery and maybe people will take you seriously. When people get sick, lose their jobs, and can’t pay their bills, where do they go? They don’t look up Atheist Organizations in the phone book, do they?

  63. on 27 Jun 2010 at 10:30 pm 63.Marvin H said …

    By the way, all the arguments against God that I’ve seen on this post have to do with the Old Testament. Unless you plan on moving to Israel to help rebuild the Temple to become theocratic nation, then you’re missing the whole point of God sending Jesus to save us from the demands of the Law. You don’t see authentic pastors killing adulterous or disobedient members, do you?

  64. on 28 Jun 2010 at 9:00 am 64.Severin said …

    62 Marvin H
    “Even if Jesus appeared to you in your living rooms, you would either laugh, spit, or leave.“

    Such an assumption is unfair: what do you know about me and how do you know how would I behave?

    „You desire to strip, ridicule, and deride others of their valid (but perhaps not well articulated) beliefs.“
    Now we are going to hidden insults, as typical for believers in lack of arguments. You are „delicate“ compared to others, but instead of giving arguments, you are putting on me tings totally unfitting my character, to try to do – what? – to show me as a „devil“ or what?

    I debated with many believers on this blog and I was all the time polite and I NEVER attacked personality.
    Of course I did it too, BUT ONLY after someone called me „drone“ or „lair“ or „animal“, without any reason.
    Even in such cases I tried to stay on a higher level than my opponents.

    As far as someone gives some arguments, no matter how week they seem to appear, I am ready to discuss. If someone calls me „drone“, or implies things I would never do, or to even think, on me, debate is ended for me.

    Arguments, gentlemen, please! My desires, and what YOU think about them, are not arguments.

  65. on 28 Jun 2010 at 9:23 am 65.Severin said …

    62 Marvin H
    As usual, believers in god never give direct answers to anything. They start to offend (in hidden form this case) or offer tirades as answers (which is the case here).

    Atheism is neither philosophy nor political opinion. Atheists never collectively formed an organization, as the non-believers in Santa never did. Why would they?
    Atheism is NOTHING MORE than NOT BELIEVING.
    The word “atheist” should not exist! Why do we not recognize “a-Santasits”, “a-mermaidists”, “a-fairiests”, “a-satanists”…
    Should we call people who do not believe man visited moon “a-moonists”?

    WHY is a special word “invented” for atheists?
    Because religions, as very strong organizations, based on big interests ONLY (power, money), which ruled this world for centuries and millenniums, are loosing their power.
    People are getting more and more educated, start to doubt and to question, and of course, start to neglect religion. The process is not quick, as religions used powerful methods FOR MILLENNIUMS to adhere people to their stories, but is INEVITABLE and IRREVERSIBLE.
    Religions, of course, in most countries have no more power to kill (burn, torture) people, but ARE afraid to lose their POWER and MONEY. They naturally try to stop their opponents. Atheists, as voice of sense, are DANGEROUS for all religions.
    Although believing in Santa does not differ at all from believing in gods, common people somehow understood Santa was not real, but under millennium pressure some of them still believe in god(s), OR they are uncertain what to do with their own doubts. It is not easy to show your doubt in god in society still hanging on superstitious beliefs!
    Human societies are typically sensitive to changes, and (with some dramatic exceptions) changes come slowly.
    As declared atheists are (sometimes) showing people how to open their eyes to the BS all religion offer to their congregations, the word “atheist” became in all religion a synonym for a “devil”.
    There is NO atheists! Just people who does not buy nonsenses any more!

  66. on 28 Jun 2010 at 9:32 am 66.Severin said …

    63 Marvin H
    “By the way, all the arguments against God that I’ve seen on this post have to do with the Old Testament.”

    Is the OT out of the Bible? Is there some other god, not the one you believe in?
    Will the OT be canceled from the Bible soon?

    YOUR god did and ordered crimes in the OT!
    Are you trying to hush this fact up?
    Are you feel shame because of your god?

    Good start!

  67. on 28 Jun 2010 at 9:33 am 67.Severin said …

    Sorry: “Are you feeling shame..” (or “Do you feel shame..”)

  68. on 28 Jun 2010 at 11:28 am 68.Boz said …

    “YOUR god did and ordered crimes in the OT!”

    Give an example.

  69. on 28 Jun 2010 at 12:40 pm 69.Severin said …

    62 Marvin H
    “Atheism is based on confusion and pride of intellect.’
    It is, as I said, based on pure unbelieving in the things without evidences!
    As I told you: I am READY to meet god if he appears to me!
    I was not proud to recognize and accept any scientific achievement, or anything else good evidences were provided to support it!
    Why would I (or anyone else) be proud to refuse to recognize god, in case good evidences of his existence were offered?

    In case of his appearance, or other relevant evidences of his existence appeared, I am ready to intellectually RECOGNIZE him, but not to ACCEPT him, IF he was the same one who ordered killing of children, and sacrificed his son to himself (according to Bible).
    MY morality does not allow me to accept sadist lunatic criminals for my friends.

    I am NOT „proud“ before evidences!
    But I AM proud when someone shits on my feelings! And ANYONE ordering killing of babies is directly shitting to my heart. I do not allow anyone to do it, be it a god or not.

  70. on 28 Jun 2010 at 12:44 pm 70.Severin said …

    Marvin H
    If you think carbon dating is a lie, please explain (first to yourself!) WHY would thousands of independent scientists have reason/interest to lie to you/us?

  71. on 28 Jun 2010 at 1:03 pm 71.Martin said …

    “Atheism is based on confusion and pride of intellect. If you grew a debilitating brain tumor, your god (intellect) would come to nothing. If I grew a brain tumor, my God will be in tact just the same as always. ”

    This is because my god (intellect) exists, while your god is a myth. Certainly a myth will live much longer than I will, it still does NOT make him/her any more real. Sorry, that argument is again very typical of Christians.

  72. on 28 Jun 2010 at 1:05 pm 72.Martin said …

    “Atheists have never COLLECTIVELY formed a substantial humanitarian organization (to my knowledge) and will never match the sacrifice of the millions of true Christians who served others selflessly.”

    YOU, my dear man, are very confused. There are a number of good humanitarian organizations out there who do not have a deist belief, google it and learn something. And, you are right, NO atheist organization will “sacrifice” as many atheists as Christians have sacrificed each other in the name of service… That much I will agree with.

  73. on 28 Jun 2010 at 1:13 pm 73.Severin said …

    68 Boz
    Isaiah chapter 13
    „Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children.“
    Jeremiah chapter 49, verse 20
    „Therefore hear the plan which the LORD has made against Edom and the purposes which he has formed against the inhabitants of Teman: Even the little ones of the flock shall be dragged away; surely their fold shall be appalled at their fate. At the sound of their fall the earth shall tremble; the sound of their cry shall be heard at the Red Sea.“
    Hosea chapter 13
    „Samaria shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open.“
    Deuteronomy Chapter 3
    „The LORD said to me, “Do not be afraid of him, for I have handed him over to you with his whole army and his land. Do to him what you did to Sihon king of the Amorites, who reigned in Heshbon…..
    ….We completely destroyed them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every city—men, women and children. But all the livestock and the plunder from their cities we carried off for ourselves.“
    Numbers chapter 31
    „Moses said to them, “Have you let all the women live? Behold, these caused the people of Israel, by the counsel of Balaam, to act treacherously against the LORD in the matter of Pe’or, and so the plague came among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.“

    Need more?
    To stop „sins“, god caused the big flood in which (obviously!) millions of innocent children died.
    He could kill “sinners” by heart attack, but he chosed to kill by terrific death non-sinners too, AND babies who could not sin by definition.
    Did he stop sinning?
    No!
    Then, blood thirsty god sacrificed his own son TO HIMSELF, to do – what? To INDUCE MERCY IN HIMSELF?
    Did he stop sinning?
    No!
    He performed all those sick, lunatic, bestial crimes only to enjoy blood and tears of poor mothers.

    People of many religions sacrificed their fellow citizens to different gods, including children.

    NO GOD, except christian god, ever sacrificed anything to HIMSELF! Especially not his own son!

    Need more? There is more, unfortunately!
    Read the Bible, cry (and vomit)!

  74. on 28 Jun 2010 at 1:17 pm 74.Martin said …

    “I have seen atheist organizations (Freedom From Religion) waste resources stopping people from saying a prayer at graduation or at a football game or take down the 10 Commandments from a court room. I’ve seen fellow teachers threatened for mentioning God in class because of laws passed by atheists”

    This is an easy one, when the Church begins to pay taxes, THEN I believe the church has a right to complain. You, the churches, CAN NOT have it both ways, protection from governement’s interference comes with a price. It’s as simple as that.

    I am amazed at your arguments, they are as if they come directly from the “manual for Christian appologetics.” I would dare offer this, there have been MANY, MANY acts of kindness done by non-believers. In fact, MILLIONS more acts of kindness have been done by non-Christians than by Christians throughout history. Christians represent less than ONE percent of the total number of humans who have ever lived. Do you think that NO acts of charity or kindness were ever performed prior to Christ? Come on, argue from a position of fact not fantasy, please.

  75. on 28 Jun 2010 at 1:18 pm 75.Martin said …

    68 Boz
    Isaiah chapter 13

    Severin, I am amazed that Boz even posted that tid bit of nonsense, wow. Great answer, thanks for doing the work, I was going to just walk over the nonsense.

  76. on 28 Jun 2010 at 1:23 pm 76.Martin said …

    The very simple reason that the “church” is opposed to anything freethought or scientific is because reason, education, and science all served to debunk religions claim on the “knowledge of everything.”

    Martin Luther, of whom I am assured by my father I am NOT named after, said it best in many of his writings when he stated that reason, education and science are the greatest enemy of the church. He actually advocated keeping the masses uneducated to keep their knowledge from debunking the church. He saw the threat to the power of the church in knowledge. Sad, really.

  77. on 28 Jun 2010 at 3:44 pm 77.Martin said …

    “Atheists have never COLLECTIVELY formed a substantial humanitarian organization (to my knowledge) and will never match the sacrifice of the millions of true Christians who served others selflessly.”

    I have a simple question, Can man be moral and just without god? Do you ascribe to the thought that without god there can be no good?

    If this is your belief system, then do you ONLY do good because of god’s wrath or reward? That’s not morality, that is sucking-up, apple-polishing, looking over your shoulder at the great eye in the sky. So, in the absence of god, you would commit murder, robbery, and rape, then you are an immoral person with or without god; however, if you would continue to be moral, with or without god, then you have to agree that you fatally undermine your contention that god is necessary for doing good.

    Do you think that if god suddenly disappeared, the world would fall into callousness and selfishness? We would somehow become hedonists? And, yet, there are millions upon millions of people who do not follow the Christian god, who do great works, who spend time, money, and effort toward helping others without so much as a thought for a reward in the afterlife.

    As C.L. Mencken was noted to say after the Montreal police strike in 1969, where people looted, robbed, murdered, and did other unspeakable things when there were no police in the city, a city that by all standards was filled with Christian believers: “People say we need religion when what we really mean is we need the police.”

  78. on 28 Jun 2010 at 3:57 pm 78.Martin said …

    “Atheists have never COLLECTIVELY formed a substantial humanitarian organization (to my knowledge) and will never match the sacrifice of the millions of true Christians who served others selflessly.”

    Secular charitiesAtheist, non-theistic, freethinking and secular charities.

    Secular Charities and Aid groups
    DonorsChoose.org

    Kiva.org

    The Union of Concerned Scientists

    American Civil Liberties Union

    United Nations Children’s Fund

    Doctors without Borders

    Amnesty International

    Oxfam International

    The Nature Conservancy

    Population Connection

    DefCon: Campaign to Defend the Constitution

    The SEED foundation

    Issue-Specific Secularist Organizations
    Anti-Discrimination Support Network (ADSN)
    ADSN Project
    The Freethought Society of Greater Philadelphia’s Anti-Discrimination support network (ADSN)
    Pro-choice organizations
    Planned Parenthood Federation of America

    NARAL Pro-choice America

    Womens Health Organizations
    EngenderHealth

    Ipas

    Teen Pregnancy Reduction
    National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancy

    HIV/AIDS
    Treatment Action Campaign

    U.S. Military
    Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers
    Challenging the myth that “there are no atheists in foxholes.” There certainly are.
    Gay rights
    Lambda

    Lambda Legal

    Human Rights Campaign

    National Education Association (NEA)
    Pledge of Allegiance
    Restore the Pledge

    Evolution/Creationism in the science classroom
    National Center for Science Education

    Scouting For All
    Composed of mostly former Boy Scouts, it is working to influence the BSA to include all participating youth members and leaders regardless of religious beliefs or sexual orientation.

    PlanUSA

    Church/state separation and secularist organizations
    Americans United for Separation of Church and State

    American Civil Liberties Union

    People for the American Way

    Freedom from Religion Foundation

    Godless Americans Political Action Committee

    Atheist Alliance

    Interfaith Alliance

    American Atheists

    Secular Coalition for America

    Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science

    Europe
    National Secular Society
    Rationalist Association

    Australia
    Atheist Foundation of Australia, Inc.
    Council for Secular Humanism

    Atheists United

    American Humanist Association
    The Continuum of Humanist Education

    The Institute for Humanist Studies (IHS)

    British Humanist Association

    Humanist Association of Canada

    Positive Atheism

    Unitarian Universalist Assocation

    The Brights

    The Objectivist Center

    Skeptic Society

    Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP)

    American Ethical Union (AEU)

    And the LIST goes on.

  79. on 28 Jun 2010 at 4:24 pm 79.Martin said …

    “By the way, all the arguments against God that I’ve seen on this post have to do with the Old Testament. Unless you plan on moving to Israel to help rebuild the Temple to become theocratic nation, then you’re missing the whole point of God sending Jesus to save us from the demands of the Law. You don’t see authentic pastors killing adulterous or disobedient members, do you?”

    Marvin, this is simply an untrue statement, but if it were true, then you are saying that the OT is not a valid argument for your god? How can you say this and then quote scripture from that book? See, Christians want to quote those passages from the OT that support their views, then they want us pretend that the rest is just not applicable, but that is just plain silly in a logical argument. The bible is either perfect or not perfect, if you doubt even ONE word of it, then you open the debate to question ALL of it.

    Let’s discuss this Jesus myth a bit then, shall we? If god is omnipotent and omniscient, he certainly would have forseen the need for Jesus even before he created man. Now, if god knew this and still had to send Jesus, then he made a mistake, or admitted he made such a mistake.

    Further, we have to talk about Jesus both as a man and a myth. Learned theologians admit that Jesus was probably NOT born of a virgin, he probably did NOT perform the miracles attributed to him, AND did not rise from the dead. These were all attributed to Jesus decades, if not centuries, after his death to give him more “street creds” using today’s terminology.

    The gospels go to GREAT lengths to show Jesus as superhuman or god-like, and yet, Paul, who probably did more to establish Christianity as a religion instead of a cult, NEVER once attributes any supernatural feats to Jesus. Apparently virgin birth and heridity weren’t so important to him as were the teachings, etc.

    No, Jesus as the Christian God, is mostly a mythical construct, created to compete with the more Pagan gods of the time. Hence his virgin birth, life, and death.

    The most damning is the Osiris/Dionysis – Christ comparison. The birth of Dionysis was actually recorded some 2500 years before the birth of Jesus and even before the so called prophesies of the Old Testament.

    Compare the similarities.

    Both born as GOD the father.
    Both born of a “virgin” human mother.
    Both born in a cave/stable.
    Both births were prophesized by a star in the heavens.
    Both performed the miracle of converting water into wine.
    Both were NOT permitted to perform miracles in their hometown.
    Both followers were born-again through baptism in water.
    Both rode triumphantly into a city on a donkey. Tradition records that the inhabitants waved palm leaves.
    Both had 12 disciples.
    Both were killed near the time of the Vernal Equinox, about MAR-21.
    Both died “as a sacrifice for the sins of the world.”
    Both were hung on a tree, stake, or cross.
    Both after death, descended into hell.
    Both on the third day after his death, returned to life.
    Both ascended into heaven.
    Both were called: Son of god, savior of the world, god made flesh.
    Both were “god made man” and both were equal to the father.
    Both will return in the last days.
    Both will judge the human race at that time.
    Both believed that man is separated from god by original sin.

    Does any of this make sense to you… 2500 years before the birth of Jesus, Dionysis was doing the exact same things that YOU profess Jesus to have done.

  80. on 28 Jun 2010 at 4:30 pm 80.Martin said …

    Whenever someone infers that atheists have no morals, do no good, are somehow evil, it pisses me off. It’s a cop-out and a convenient way to dismiss those of us who have eliminated the need for a mythical god. We hold life sacred, even more so than most Theists, because we know this is our one trip around the sun on this rock we call Earth. We hold ourselves accountable for the rights and wrongs we do, we are hungry to learn, to love, to share, to live in peace, to be a part of society we live in, and to uphold the values of life, liberty, and the pusuit of happiness.

  81. on 28 Jun 2010 at 6:26 pm 81.Severin said …

    75 martin
    You would be surprised about how many christians never read the Bible.

    I sometimes have private debates with my friends.
    Some of them never realized that, according to Bible, all the humans ever existed were products of incestuous sex among direct brothers and sisters, children of A&E.
    Most of them just stared at me and admitted they never thought about it.
    Trust me, when I say to many christians that god ordered masacring of babies, they just never heard about such things.
    Christians are, in most cases not only lazy to read, but also lazy to read their own “basic book”, the very (and ONLY) book they pay so much importance to.

  82. on 28 Jun 2010 at 6:51 pm 82.Martin said …

    Severin, it has been noted many times that atheists tend to read and understand the bible far more than Christians do. Probably because we do not wait to have our preachers tell us what to believe, as churchgoers do.

    And, I know Christians just HATE it when I say this, but the majority of atheists are intellectually among the elite classes. Now, sit back and watch the attacks.. SMILE…

    I’m happy that you are on here along with me, you are a light in an otherwise very dark discussion. Thanks my friend.

    Martin

  83. on 28 Jun 2010 at 7:55 pm 83.Boz said …

    Severin

    I thank you for the work as well. Do you know the background of the passages?

    Second, Why are the deeds wrong?

  84. on 28 Jun 2010 at 8:00 pm 84.Boz said …

    Martin

    Thanks for being pissed off and not pissed on. Your little list is not all atheist organizations. Nice try, but take credit only when deserved. Geez, some of them are just political garbage dumps. But if it makes you feel good, go for it!

    Anyone can do good things including atheist. Christians just tend to be at the forefront.

  85. on 29 Jun 2010 at 12:39 am 85.Martin said …

    Oh Boz, is that the best you can do? I get better come backs and stronger arguments from my seven year old grandson.

  86. on 29 Jun 2010 at 12:43 am 86.Martin said …

    I did not say that they were all atheist groups, but they are NOT Christian groups, they are more what I call Freethinker groups.

    I suppose you need to get your leg up where you can. It’s funy how Christians pick and chose what they want to respond to, so instead on challenging the Osiris/Dionysis – Christ comparison, you focus on something as mundane as a list. Good one.

  87. on 29 Jun 2010 at 12:45 am 87.Lou said …

    I hope Sev or Martin will bring an answer to Boz’s question.

    Atheist are always telling the theist how wrong we are and how obvious it is to them. If it is so obvious, why are there so few atheist? Oh, I forgot they are smarter. The local High school atheist are the social outcast, the misfits, the kids that don’t fit in. That might be a better explanation. A childhood full of pain and social issues.

  88. on 29 Jun 2010 at 12:56 am 88.Martin said …

    “The local High school atheist are the social outcast, the misfits, the kids that don’t fit in. That might be a better explanation. A childhood full of pain and social issues.”

    Wow, really??? I mean really?? And, what deeds are we refering to?

    Those so called social outcasts today are the top of the scientific world, the best and brightest minds, those people who gave you all the wonderful gadgets you so love to use, including your computer. And, as to why there aren’t more atheists, well you probably wouldn’t understand if I started talking about sociology, anthropology, cultural psychology, memes, genes, and anthropic numbers.

    For your information, there are actually more non-Christians than Christians in the world, and among the Christians in the US, many attend church because of social obligations, peer pressure, social pressure, and so forth. In the very near future, more and more Christians will come out of the closet and admit their atheism.

  89. on 29 Jun 2010 at 3:44 am 89.Severin said …

    83 Boz
    I know the background.
    Are you going in direction of justifying of those deeds?
    Someone (or many of them) offended me (by worshipping golden kalf or other way), and I will distroy their towns, kill their children, rip regnant women…

    Are you SERIOUS when asking why are the deeds wrong?

    If you are, then – sorry to say – you need urgent and serious help. AND people around you are in serious danger. They need to be protected too.

  90. on 29 Jun 2010 at 3:55 am 90.Severin said …

    87 Lou
    “If it is so obvious, why are there so few atheist?“

    Few?
    Maybe in Afganistan and in the USA.

    Here in Europe situation is something better.
    Number of atheists is growing!

    Process is inevitable and irreversible!

  91. on 29 Jun 2010 at 4:37 am 91.Severin said …

    87 Lou
    “I hope Sev or Martin will bring an answer to Boz’s question.“

    Do you think too, that killing of children, raping, ripping of pregnant women, distroying and robbing are the right punishments for „rebelling“ against god (worshipping of Baal or the golden calf)?

    It is ONE thing when someone is trying to find a „context“ in the Bible („Bible should not be taken literally“, „you do not see the context“…).
    Such an approach makes you only a „defender“ of your religion.

    It is quite something DIFFERENT (and NEW for me) if someone is trying to JUSTIFY god’s deeds.
    You are saying:
    There is no „context“, god did it, and did it right!

    Such an approach makes you moral accomplice!
    You are practically saying that killing of children is right IF you have a „good reason“ to do it!

    What you people have in your hearts?

    Nothing and no one is worthy of tears of dying children.
    THAT is moraltity of an atheist.

  92. on 29 Jun 2010 at 4:39 am 92.Anonymous said …

    Question: Which is more important? Your eternal destiny, or the mere fact that crude oil exists?
    If God were not concerned about us the Bible would not exist. It’s His footprint showing us He really cares about our redemption. We are the ones that hated Him, spit on His face, plucked His beard, and tortured Him on the cross that He voluntarily went to because He loved us more than we could imagine. It’s not about how smart we think we are but rather, how far we have fallen from grace. Here is my challenge to you: Stop hardening your heart and think about the one thing that seperates us from the animal kingdom (LOVE). We all need it and you are no exception.

  93. on 29 Jun 2010 at 5:05 am 93.Severin said …

    92 Anonymous
    “Stop hardening your heart and think about the one thing that seperates us from the animal kingdom (LOVE).’

    If love separates us from animals, then your god is worse than any animal. He never showed love. What he showed in the Bible was anger, hate and jalousy.
    He was so jalous to competition gods that he ordered killings, including killing of children, and ripping pregnant women.
    So either your god was an extreme lunatic criminal, or there was no god at all.

    Moreover, he SHOULD HAVE KNOWN that there WERE NO COMPETITION GODS (or…?), so his brutal jalous deeds were FOR NOTHING.

  94. on 29 Jun 2010 at 1:22 pm 94.Boz said …

    D”o you think too, that killing of children, raping, ripping of pregnant women, distroying and robbing are the right punishments for „rebelling“ against god”

    Severin, again you list the misdeeds so tell me why they are wrong rather than telling us it is obvious. Yes, I need to be told, help me out here.

  95. on 29 Jun 2010 at 1:29 pm 95.Boz said …

    Martin,

    Atheist are a very small percentage of the world population. Sorry, its just a fact. They are a minority in the scientific world as well. I saw the Pew report.

    Atheist as being intelligent is wonderful and I am happy for the group. We all hope the intelligent atheist will have compassion on the ignorant theist.

  96. on 29 Jun 2010 at 2:04 pm 96.Martin said …

    Really boz, so you are now admitting that other religions are valid? So, you admit that the gods of those living in the tropics, the aboriginies, those in Africa, Asia, South America, and ALL the Islamics, are REAL gods. If you do, then your god is only as good as their gods, and therefore can’t be omnipotent and the one true god; otherwise, you have to clump all those people in a group called Non-believers in YOUR god, and by default atheists to YOUR god. The definition of Atheist is a NON-Belief in god/s, so you are in fact a Zeus Atheist, and an atheist to all other gods but the Christian god. I just happen to take my atheism one god further than you do.

    As for the compassion issue, you probably are right, the intelligent atheists DO indeed have compassion on you, that is why many of you theists are still alive today and not ravaged by disease, hunger, and even a government that would restrict your rights. So, you are welcome.

  97. on 29 Jun 2010 at 2:08 pm 97.Martin said …

    “Question: Which is more important? Your eternal destiny, or the mere fact that crude oil exists?
    If God were not concerned about us the Bible would not exist.”

    Oh Please, so if your argument is that god exists because there is a bible, does that mean that the god of Islam exists because they have the Koran?

    The heart of an atheist is NOT hardened, it is open to reason and debate, open to love and caring, and only asks that his/her place in the world be respected.

    As for the issue of LOVE being what separates us, apparently you have never seen the care that elephants give their young, the tenderness of the great apes with their young, LOVE is not a human construct… except by definition alone.

  98. on 29 Jun 2010 at 2:10 pm 98.Martin said …

    “Severin, again you list the misdeeds so tell me why they are wrong rather than telling us it is obvious. Yes, I need to be told, help me out here.”

    So, boz, you are stating that the acts of killing babies, murdering pregnant women, raping, enslaving, and all the evils of the old testament were somehow justified? Are you actually condoning these acts? Now, I need to be educated.

  99. on 29 Jun 2010 at 2:19 pm 99.Martin said …

    Anyone who claims to be a Christian and condones the evils done in the Old Testament, need only look at the Islamic Faith of today. These people, in respect to their “bible” are killing children, women, men, babies, even their own families, all in the name of their god and religion. So then, because they are justified in their beliefs to kill, are you going to defend their actions?

    How can anyone who claims to have morality condone the killing of children, the raping of women, the taking of possessions which do not belong to them. You do realize that god sent his angel of death into Egypt to kill all those children because he wanted the Pharoh to release the Isrealites. But, he is an all-powerful god, surely he could have simply picked them up and transported them to anywhere in the world, or could HE? If a god can part the Red Sea, surely he could have done something less violent against the Egyptians.

    And, about this Flood, why did god have to flood the earth, why not simply will that every human, except Noah and his family, simply die, disappear, be gone. It would have saved many animals, trees, homes, etc. And, why kill off innocent babies, who could NOT have sinned yet, and if raised in the proper homelife would have been perfectly good adults? Think People, THINK!

  100. on 29 Jun 2010 at 2:24 pm 100.Martin said …

    “They are a minority in the scientific world as well. I saw the Pew report. ”

    The Pew Report, REALLY, you mean that report sanctioned by the Templeton Foundation… WOW, who would have thought that a Religious Foundation would sanction a report AND get the results they wanted… simply amazing…

    Now, I have a report that shows that 95% of those Scientists in the Royal Fellows, and 93% of those in the American equivalent, and these men/women don’t join these groups they are vetted and invited to join, do NOT believe in a personal god. So, I’m guessing that the Pew Report went around and found “scientists” who would agree with their views, typical of Christians, instead of looking at a venerable group, which by the way has been responsible for some 90% of all great scientific work over the past 100 years. NEXT

  101. on 29 Jun 2010 at 2:29 pm 101.Martin said …

    ANY “research” group whose entire focus is on religion and makes claims of being unbiased, is full of crap. Just read their website and you can see through the BS.

    I guess you’ll next tell me that the Westboro Baptist Church is a good research group on homosexual issues. Laughable.

  102. on 29 Jun 2010 at 4:34 pm 102.Martin said …

    “Atheist are a very small percentage of the world population.”

    1.1 Billion worldwide are recognized as atheist/agnostic, non-religious, humanists, etc.

    The American Religious Identification Survey gave Non-Religious groups the largest gain in terms of absolute numbers – 14,300,000 (8.4% of the population) to 29,400,000 (14.1% of the population) for the period 1990 to 2001 in the USA.

  103. on 29 Jun 2010 at 5:19 pm 103.Boz said …

    Martin

    Sorry, I don’t have as much time as you and cannot read all your post. Non-religious also includes theist in your numbers above. This site has already been through this exercise. So you consider theist to be atheist? I’m theist.

    Last, can you tell me why the misdeeds are wrong in Sev’s cut’n'paste? You and Sev can only ask more questions and cannot answer that one request. Help me out here.

    Thanks

  104. on 29 Jun 2010 at 5:37 pm 104.Severin said …

    94 Boz
    “Severin, again you list the misdeeds so tell me why they are wrong rather than telling us it is obvious. Yes, I need to be told, help me out here.”

    Dear Boz,
    If you REALLY do not know why is killing of children and ripping of pregant women wrong, then you have really BIG problem, which calls for immediate PROFESSIONAL help.
    I am not a professional shrink/psyhologist, and anything I would say might lead to further, more serious damages of your mind (if such are possible at all).
    One has to approach to your mind VERY carefully and really professionaly!

    I am not ready to feel responsible for malpractice!

  105. on 29 Jun 2010 at 5:44 pm 105.Severin said …

    Boz
    And please hurry up to seek help before YOU kill someone!
    If you do not know why is it wrong, it just might happen!
    Imagine a child brakes your window!

  106. on 29 Jun 2010 at 6:25 pm 106.Severin said …

    95 Boz
    As this is only statistics, I do hope this comment will not cause further damages of your mind, so I will risk to continue with less sensitive topics:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism#Europe
    “According to the most recent relevant Eurostat Eurobarometer poll, in 2005, 52% of European Union citizens responded that “they believe there is a God”, whereas 27% answered that “they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force” and 18% that “they do not believe there is a spirit, God, nor life force””

    As you can see, maybe the USA is closer to Afganistan and Honduras in No. of atheists, but in Europe situation is very different.

    You might say that 18% of declared atheists is relatively small percentage, but please have in mind that only 100 years ago there were NO atheists in Europe at all.
    Few exceptions you might find are nothing compared to No. of believers at that time.
    VERY big and VERY quick decrease!
    It comes with education!

    It is even more intriguing to see the No. of those who “believe in some sort of spirit or force” (27%).
    It is intriguing because those people have THEIR OWN, intimate, private beliefs!
    They DO NOT go to any church, they do not pray, they do not listen priests, THEY DO NOT GIVE MONEY to money-hungry churches.

    And they would never ask why is killing of babies and ripping of pregant women wrong. At least majority of them will not pose such questions. Some wil, of course, because there inevitably must be some sick people among them too.

  107. on 29 Jun 2010 at 8:37 pm 107.Martin said …

    “Last, can you tell me why the misdeeds are wrong in Sev’s cut’n’paste? You and Sev can only ask more questions and cannot answer that one request. Help me out here.”

    Killing is wrong, period. Killing Children is WRONG, even if done by a god. Raping women is WRONG, period, nothing, I repeat NOTHING justifies it, not even god. Does THAT answer your question.

    As for time, I’m sorry you don’t have the time I do, are you jealous? I could really care less if you read what I write or not, YOU chose to address my posts, NOT the other way around. Peace.

  108. on 29 Jun 2010 at 8:44 pm 108.Martin said …

    And Boz, I’m sorry, but I agree with Severin, IF you have to ask such questions, then your morals are WAY off, and I will not respond to another post from you. Thank you for proving that even Theists can be, and often are, just as dangerous as Christians. Good show…

    I suppose you’re a busy man, probably out doing wonderful things for the world, congratulations. I am merely an academic, one who has his summers free to pursue just about anything I wish. This summer I’m actually finishing a textbook. Keep up the good work and if you wish to respond, know I will not be drawn into your deviant world any longer. Again, peace.

  109. on 29 Jun 2010 at 8:50 pm 109.Martin said …

    Oh, and I’m sorry boz, but you say you are a theist, do you know what the definition of a true theist is? These are just questions for you to think about. By saying you are a theist you are admiting that you do not believe in a personal god, so in fact you are a Christian atheist, because you do not believe in the Christian god. Or are you prepared to change your story?

  110. on 29 Jun 2010 at 10:01 pm 110.Boz said …

    Sev & Martin you disappoint. Your morality apparently has no substantial background. You provide OT passages known as an Oracle that speak of the Medes taking out the Babylonians, call it God’s immorality but cannot provide a reason.

    America kills children everyday. America executes prisoners regularly. The animal kingdom does the same. Apparently killing is not wrong or you would be working to put a stop to the practice or at minimum these individuals would be imprisoned.

    If you can provide a reason, I again welcome a rationale educated response other than personal attacks, digression and childish banter. I thought you two might be able to carry on a rationale discussion but the subject appears to be too complex.

  111. on 29 Jun 2010 at 10:04 pm 111.Boz said …

    “please have in mind that only 100 years ago there were NO atheists in Europe at all.”

    LOL, I’m sorry Severin but I did actually LOL. There have been atheist in the Euro for many many centuries, even millenniums. You need to check you history buddy!

  112. on 29 Jun 2010 at 10:10 pm 112.Xenon said …

    Boz,

    I have asked this same question to atheist. Actions are only wrong based on their opinion. That is their moral guide, their opinion.

  113. on 30 Jun 2010 at 12:06 am 113.Anonymous said …

    How did we figure out that slavery was wrong?
    The bible didn’t help us…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnXmDaI8IEo

  114. on 30 Jun 2010 at 1:44 am 114.Martin said …

    No boz, your morality disappoints ME. Enough said, to actually defend killing, to attack atheists who have morals, you guys are fucking insane, but hey, if it works for you, go for it. Justifying killing on any level is a show of what I call fanaticism on the level with Islamic extremists.. good show..

  115. on 30 Jun 2010 at 1:46 am 115.Martin said …

    And boz, to be honest, you haven’t opened what my rational mind calls a debate, yet. Ask, if you will, a direct question, or make a direct claim, then prove it. I don’t have to prove anything, you are the one making a claim, that there is a god, NOW you prove it. I don’t have to and you know why, because he doesn’t exist. Your move.

  116. on 30 Jun 2010 at 1:52 am 116.Martin said …

    “America kills children everyday. America executes prisoners regularly. The animal kingdom does the same. Apparently killing is not wrong or you would be working to put a stop to the practice or at minimum these individuals would be imprisoned.”

    This argument isn’t even valid and IF you were rational you’d understand the error of your ways. Sad, really…

    How does a country kill anyone? America doesn’t execute prisoners, men execute prisoners. America, last time I checked, wasn’t god, or is it?

    Comparing “god’s” execution of children with America’s so called killing of children is like comparing apples and oranges, very slick, but not very intelligent. Nice try, sorry, not biting. Bye bye.

  117. on 30 Jun 2010 at 1:57 am 117.Martin said …

    “I have asked this same question to atheist. Actions are only wrong based on their opinion. That is their moral guide, their opinion.”

    So, xenon, you are saying that god was justified in killing all those innocent children in the old testament, oh that’s right the OT is old school… ok then, how about god allowing Herod (which didn’t actually happen, but for argument’s sake) to kill all those first born sons during the birth of Jesus? An all powerful god allowed those innocent children to die, for what??? God was powerful enough to impregnate Mary, but couldn’t save those male children??? Laughable.

  118. on 30 Jun 2010 at 2:00 am 118.Martin said …

    LEt me say this for the RECORD: There is NO justifiction for killing children… period. If that is some kind of Warped Atheist Morality, then I accept my morality and live with it, thank you.

    To turn that stupid statement that boz made about America killing children, how about this… IF CHRISTIANITY TOOK HALF THE MONEY THAT IS WASTED ON FIGHTING SAME SEX MARRIAGE AND USED IT TO FEED THE 10 MILLION CHILDREN LIVING IN OR NEAR POVERTY IN THIS COUNTRY, IMAGINE HOW MUCH BETTER THEIR LIVES WOULD BE. THEN IMAGINE HOW MUCH BETTER THE LIVES OF THOSE POOR AMERICANS WHO WANT NOTHING MORE THAN TO BE HAPPY AND LEFT ALONE WOULD BE.

  119. on 30 Jun 2010 at 5:29 am 119.Severin said …

    111 Boz
    “There have been atheist in the Euro for many many centuries, even millenniums.”

    I admitted that, but how many? 18%? I would not say it.

  120. on 30 Jun 2010 at 5:43 am 120.Severin said …

    110 Boz
    “Sev & Martin you disappoint. Your morality apparently has no substantial background.“
    „Apparently killing is not wrong….“

    I will just leave this to other people to judge!

    MY morality is without background because I do not accept killing of innocent babies and ripping of pregnant women.
    YOUR morality is O.K. when you say that killing is not wrong.

    What sort of humans are you people?
    Is THIS what religion makes of humans?

    You have just proved how extremely dangerous religions are!

  121. on 30 Jun 2010 at 5:50 am 121.Severin said …

    112 Xenon

    Didn’t you ask some time ago on this blog: “Why is incest immoral?”

    Now we see that you agree with Boz, and that free killing also fits in your understanding of morality.

    Nice company!

    If you have children, will you (or: did you) teach them that both killing and incest are moral?

  122. on 30 Jun 2010 at 6:17 am 122.Severin said …

    110 Boz
    112 Xenon

    I am shocked! I really am!

    I knew religions are dangerous, but I would never expect that someone, in the 21. century, coming from (I suppose) the USA could pose questions like:

    Why is incest immoral?
    Why is killing (of childrena and pregnant women) immoral?

    I am absolutely positive: if you asked an Aborigine the same questions some 150 years ago, they would NOT say that incest and killing of children and ripping of pregnant women were O.K.
    Of course, they were not christians!
    maybe they would give different answers today, after they “learned” christian morality.

    Some politician (Churchil?) once said: I do not agree with your claim, but I am ready to die for your freedom to say it.
    I was the same one: I am an atheist, but I was always ready to defend rights of believers, and I DID, actually, in very dangerous times!

    After I saw how religion twists human mind, I am not sure I would ever defend freedom of religious people.
    To let them spreading poison among children – no, thank you! I will fight them the best way I can.

    Of course I never agreed with Lenin, his regime and his methods, but now I can say: in ONE thing I do agree with him: religions are drugs (for masses).

    It is obvious! It makes people to accept incest AND killing of babies and pregnant women as MORAL deeds.
    Dangerous drug!

  123. on 30 Jun 2010 at 6:31 am 123.Severin said …

    Boz, Xenon

    What makes you different from muslim fundametalists?

    They also think killing of innocent people is O.K.

  124. on 30 Jun 2010 at 12:36 pm 124.Boz said …

    Sev and Martin your outrage is noted at my lack of ethics, It is a nice twist to a simple question. The fallacy of digression is a favorite tool. But back to the question-

    If you claim the Oracle of Isaiah is immoral because you say it is immoral just admit it. If you moral judgments are just opinion don’t be afraid to admit that.

    To go along with my previous post, nations routinely allow murder and rape to take place such as Iraq pre-invasion. Many nations had the power to stop it but would not. You could argue America became the modern day Medes without the rape, murder and pillage (depending on your pov).

  125. on 30 Jun 2010 at 2:48 pm 125.Martin said …

    “To go along with my previous post, nations routinely allow murder and rape to take place such as Iraq pre-invasion.”

    We are not questioning a NATION’S morality, Boz, like most theists you are really good at taking a statement or argument and twisting it to match your “point”. You are WAY off topic, dude, WAY OFF. We are discussing the morality of GOD, and I’m pretty sure that Iraq, America, and the likes are not god, nor are they taking orders from god. Since I do not believe in god, MY point about the atrocities from the bible is that they are committed in the NAME of a god that does not exist.

    I do not argue that America is a perfect nation, FAR from it. The rape, killing, and aweful treatment of the Native population in America is very much akin to the treatments we find in the bible, AND unfortunately, most of those who did the mistreatment WERE Christians. So, again, what’s your point?

    Again, stay on topic or explain you want to change the rules of the debate, but don’t just muddy up the water.

  126. on 30 Jun 2010 at 2:55 pm 126.Martin said …

    “Actions are only wrong based on their opinion. That is their moral guide, their opinion.”

    Xenon, you make a very simple assumption here. IF my opinion is my moral guide, and it is a good MORAL, why is my opinion wrong? Why is it that atheists “have no morals” because we do not follow a central doctrine that has been shown, time and again, to be a flawed doctrine. So, Muslims are NOT atheists, therefore, their morals and moral guides, are better than mine. Even those who chose to follow the more extreme doctrine of the Islamic Faith. To sum it up, the circular reasoning of Christians HAS to allow for the idea that anyone who proclaims a religiousity has morals, because the converse is that all atheists do not have morals. Good argument there.

  127. on 30 Jun 2010 at 4:48 pm 127.Severin said …

    124 Boz
    Your examples from #124 are immoral too, of course, and can not be used as explanation or justification of god’s crimes. Beside being double immoral (you equally justify god’s and human crimes), such reasoning is pure circular reasoning.
    I never claimed there were no immorality (crimes) on earth, but also never claimed (as you DID!) that god’s crimes could be justified by human crimes.

    THAT is really something! An allmighty (and all-loving) god needs justification for his misdeeds from humans!!!
    I never saw such bizarre replacement thesis used to somehow justify the previously stated (dangerous) idiocy.

    So, from formal side, you have here:
    Circular reasoning
    Replacement thesis
    From MORAL side, which is far more important, you are the one to be sorry for.
    BUT, if you REALLY can not see the difference between killing and non-killing, and the two are of the same moral value for you, your potential victims are ones to be sorry for, and have to be warned and protected: you are dangerous!

    You could kill someone not understanding it was wrong!

  128. on 30 Jun 2010 at 8:45 pm 128.Martin said …

    Severin, it amazes me that the BEST some of these Theists can do is mock us, and then make these ridiculous statements. They then have the audacity to call us shameless.

  129. on 30 Jun 2010 at 10:11 pm 129.Boz said …

    Well guys, it appears you disapprove on an oracle delivered by Isaiah of future events because your personal opinion is that it was wrong. That’s fine, but personal opinion means everyone is allowed to determine right and wrong. That would mean the majority of Medes felt what they did was OK therefore it was moral. I can’t imagine you could justify pushing your personal opinion on others 2500 years ago?

    Martin, I’ll give you this. To actually claim I mocked you when your post are full of personal attacks and insults takes a large set. I did another LOL, so thanks. I don’t play those games. Not a problem, however, I did expect such tactics.

  130. on 30 Jun 2010 at 10:21 pm 130.Martin said …

    “The fallacy of digression is a favorite tool.”

    Boz, because your psyche is so utterly intriguing, I have to hear this one. How is digression a fallacy, in your world? You use digression every day, it is scientific fact, and yet to you it is a fallacy. I can’t wait.

    On to another topic. How is it then, that you can read the bible, see the atrocities committed therein, and I’m not just talking about the OT either, there are some hints at god’s evil works in the New Testament as well, and actually believe? Please, please expand upon your notion that murder, rape, genocide, and slavery, are somehow justified.

    Please tell me how a “perfect” god would have the need to be so cruel as to kill every human being on earth, including innocent children, during the “flood” when he could have simply blinked away this evil, or could he? Why must men pray to change the mind of a god who knows everything, if he changes his mind then he is not omipotent, and if he refuses, then prayer is waste of time.

    Now, what this all boils down to is that religion can not be rationalized away. The reason is because belief is not something that we come to rationally, it is something that is forced upon us by our parents and society. I prove this with the simple statement that if YOU had been born in China or Iran, you would NOT be a Christian and if you claim only to be a theist, then you wouldn’t even be that. The middle east is nearly 95% Islamic, not theistic nor atheistic. Your turn.

  131. on 30 Jun 2010 at 10:27 pm 131.Martin said …

    “I can’t imagine you could justify pushing your personal opinion on others 2500 years ago?”

    And yet, Christians seek to use this VERY same book to push THEIR morality on us, some 2500 years later. Wow, what circular reasoning you have.

    I am not held to some notion of morals based on belief, I have not said I do not mock Christians, I do, and I will continue. I will call them children, I will call them delusional, I will seek to debunk their idiotic belief system at EVERY turn, so if you “LOL” then I am none the worse off for it. Good show.

    You see, you seek to justify what we would consider evil today, and then your kind seek to use the old testament to “justify” your own hatred and bias against homosexuals. Wow, am I the ONLY one who sees this as problematic?

  132. on 30 Jun 2010 at 10:33 pm 132.Martin said …

    “Well guys, it appears you disapprove on an oracle delivered by Isaiah of future events because your personal opinion is that it was wrong. That’s fine, but personal opinion means everyone is allowed to determine right and wrong. That would mean the majority of Medes felt what they did was OK therefore it was moral. I can’t imagine you could justify pushing your personal opinion on others 2500 years ago?”

    Boz, I have come to recognize you as a GREAT bullshitter, and I think this post proves my point. Again, this is utter nonsense, it says a lot and means NOTHING. It is an old fall back position for theists, but it also proves another point that atheist make all the time. IF what is written in the OT was written for 2500 years ago, then it has NO direct bearing on the year 2010. And, here we are again, Christians today continue to use that OLD TESTAMENT as a basis for their morality, today’s morality. See, for MOST Christians, the bible can’t be both Perfect, and flawed, so which is it. To say it is perfect puts you in the Faith-Head/Nut Job category, to say it is not, then admits that the bible is a man-made construct and is NOT the true word of god. So, which is it?

  133. on 30 Jun 2010 at 10:38 pm 133.Martin said …

    Oh, and boz, trying to be the “cool dude” isn’t working for you, mainly because you haven’t YET made a statement that makes sense. Keep trying though, I’m sure sooner or later we’ll meet on some ground that you’ll understand and perhaps then we can have a debate. Until then, well, keep trying, old chap, keep trying.

  134. on 30 Jun 2010 at 11:20 pm 134.Horatio said …

    “I have to hear this one. How is digression a fallacy, in your world?”

    The fallacy of digression means changing the subject. Please let me know what institution you will be teching at so I can be sure one of my kids never attends. No offense, I just don’t want a prof so childish with names and belittlement to have any influence on my kids.

    http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html

    You have done quite a knock up job Marty!

  135. on 01 Jul 2010 at 4:09 am 135.Severin said …

    Boz, Horatio
    So if one day someone kills or rapes somebody you love, you will have no complaint.

    Why would you?
    It would be a moral deed according to your understanding of morality.

    (Never to happen! It is only for debate purposes)

  136. on 01 Jul 2010 at 4:18 am 136.Severin said …

    134 Horatio
    If you start with god’s crimes and justify his crimes by crinmes of humans, then it is both: fallacy of digression AND circular reasoning.
    First you (Boz) change subject (god/humans), then you (Boz) say: if human crimes are O.K., the god’s crimes are O.K. too, AND v.v.

    Keep learning logic!

    But logic is not an issue here! Your justifying of crimes is.
    Instead of asking us why is killing immoral, tell us why is it O.K.
    Enlighten us!

  137. on 01 Jul 2010 at 12:20 pm 137.Marvin H said …

    I stand corrected on my last post, and I admit it. http://www.squidoo.com/Atheist-Charities

  138. on 01 Jul 2010 at 1:03 pm 138.Boz said …

    Martin,

    I’m not as cool as I think I am? Imagine my dismay. Sev and Martin I simply asked what constituted that the Oracle of Isaiah 13 was immoral. You gentlemen have jumped everywhere from ad hominem fallacies to assertions I condone the murder of my family.

    It was a simple question and rather than striking out in anger, help me out here. I am not one of the high IQ guys like you two. I have made the assumption this is your personal opinion? Would this be correct?

    Thanks for the follow up definition Horatio. I assumed Martin would be aware or could find out.

  139. on 01 Jul 2010 at 1:37 pm 139.Martin said …

    Actually, boz, in spite of your arrogance, you are partially correct. It is unfair to assume that the “morals” of 2500 years ago would be the same as today, and to apply them likewise is incorrect; however, YOU, sir, used your “question” to purposely muddy the waters of the discussion that was being had. By making the claims that you did, you actually managed to do nothing but support the arguments that Severin and I have been making all along. YOU CAN’T USE THE BIBLE AS A MORAL COMPASS, YOUR ARGUMENT SUPPORTS THAT.

    Yeah, it is sad when one isn’t as funny or as intelligent as one thinks one is, I feel for you boz, I do.

  140. on 01 Jul 2010 at 1:39 pm 140.Martin said …

    “Please let me know what institution you will be teching at so I can be sure one of my kids never attends.”

    Seriously, IF your kids use grammar the way you do, I’m pretty sure they won’t be attending college. Tech school, maybe, but college I doubt. No offense.

  141. on 01 Jul 2010 at 1:43 pm 141.Martin said …

    Hey Horatio,

    Ad Hominem (Argument To The Man):
    attacking the person instead of attacking his argument. This sounds JUST LIKE YOU…

    And, if you are talking to me, Marty isn’t a name I recognize, so your post was apparently meant for someone else.. Unless I get to call you Whore…

  142. on 01 Jul 2010 at 1:45 pm 142.Martin said …

    The statement that digression is a fallacy, makes just about as much sense as green men eat pizza. Digression is a fallacy, it is a reality, it happens all the time, and it is something EVERYONE does. That was my point, idiots.

  143. on 01 Jul 2010 at 1:57 pm 143.Martin said …

    Marvin, I admire you, man, I really do… and I’ll tell you why. I think that you, alone among most of those who come on here, are truly a believer. While I am somewhat amazed by true believers, when faced with the staggering amount of evidence against the historicity of the bible, still believe, I can admire the act of belief.

    See, atheists, despite what people think, do not actually have a belief system at all, not a religious belief system. We actually want to be proven wrong on most things, we openly accept proof, we change our minds all the time when the evidence warrants it. IF tomorrow, a god is proven, we will all accept this deity… I have read many books written by Christian authors, I recommend that you read only two books by atheists: Richard Dawkins, “The God Delusion” and Dan Barker’s “Godless” The two books will either make you question your faith, or make it stronger, either way you lose nothing by reading them.

  144. on 01 Jul 2010 at 2:09 pm 144.Martin said …

    And now, I’m getting bored with this banter back and forth which has served NO purpose at all. IF you want to have a serious argument about god, then make a statement and I’ll dispute or agree with it. However, this whole tit for tat thing, while a bit fun to give theists back some of their own medicine by confusing the discussion, name calling, and the like, is getting OLD.

    To those whom I have offended, I’ll apologize now for that. To those who will attack me for this statement, I don’t offend that easily, trust me. So, I sign off until something of value is posted. Peace.

  145. on 01 Jul 2010 at 3:05 pm 145.Horatio said …

    No problem Boz. Since our friends did not answer the question let me give it a shot.

    Atheist have no overarching standard for their morality so it does truly come down to whatever each individual determines is moral. They don’t like to admit to this fact which is why they do not like to discuss it. They take such an observation as a personal attack. Someone as thin skinned as Marty then over reacts with a variety of verbal offenses.

    Isn’t it ironic? Marty chides my grammar while becoming Sev’s sidekick?

  146. on 01 Jul 2010 at 3:35 pm 146.Martin said …

    Hey Whore, at least Severin isn’t an American, what’s your excuse?

    Now as for how atheists get their morals, I’ll respond to that later, after I have some time to think of a way I can explain it so you can understand it, how’s that?

    I hope this Marty guy you keep talking about answers you soon. Peace.

  147. on 01 Jul 2010 at 8:56 pm 147.Boz said …

    Hor,

    Your explanation is about the best that can be crafted. I watched a video of interviews from a Humanist conference in Denver a few years back and their answers varied but all went to their own personal hierarchy of morality. Some went to the Bible or even some other Holy books. Quite interesting. My intent is not to judge, but to prompt them to think. They do tend to struggle in this area.

    When the grammar card comes out, I place that is the same category as my coolness.

    FYI, Martin is a Gamecock as am I but many many years ago. I was there on a football scholarship under Joe Morrison. It was a great time.

  148. on 02 Jul 2010 at 1:43 pm 148.Martin said …

    Yeah, right, you are all so smug… well, good luck with following that “wonderful” god of yours.. We’ll see who has the last laugh… Christianity, as well as Islam, is all a danger to society, and all the debate in the world doesn’t change the reality of it. So, peace to all, I am bored with this, NOTHING is being talked about, nothing debated. Peace.

  149. on 02 Jul 2010 at 2:51 pm 149.Horatio said …

    “but all went to their own personal hierarchy of morality”

    Wouldn’t that be the ultimate in arrogance? Believing your morality is the one that should be followed by all. That seems to be a great cog in Communism.

  150. on 03 Jul 2010 at 6:28 am 150.Severin said …

    Boz, Xenon, Horatio,

    I am not a professional philosopher specialized in etics, to find formal, scientifically aproved answer to your glorious question:

    “WHY IS KILLING IMMORAL?” (Before that: WHY IS INCEST IMMORAL?)

    I admit I am not able to EXPLAIN why is killing of babies and ripping of pregnant women immoral.
    I am able to FEEL it, and I am happy and proud I am!

    I would not say I am generally imposing my feelings as moral rules!
    I am not!
    Most of societies (if not all of them), including the USA, did not ask ME anything when they put in their laws prohibition of killing as highly unacceptable (immoral!) social behavior, and punishments for killers.
    I swear they did not! I had no influence on USA laws!

    Some questions do not need formal explanation!
    For example:

    “WHY IS SHIT INEDIBLE?”

    I doubt, gentlemen, you are able to find formal, scientifically aproved answer to this question.

    Yet, SHIT IS INEDIBLE!
    Yet, KILLING IS IMMORAL!

    If YOU do not FEEL that, please be very carefull!

    You might kill someone not understanding it was immoral.

    Or you caould eat something before someone explained to you it was inedible.

  151. on 03 Jul 2010 at 9:58 am 151.Severin said …

    146 Martin
    “See, atheists, despite what people think, do not actually have a belief system at all, not a religious belief system.“

    You will never convince them!
    They are so deeply dived in their dogmatic way of thinking that they can not see that non-believing is nothing but non-believing. They see everywhere conspiracies, commnism (see #149),…

    You may call me an “atheist” but by the same reason you can call me an “a-flattearthist” or “a-flogistonist” or “a-mermaideist”; as religious people DO find differences among religions, they “logically” find differences between non-believing in god and non-believing in Santa. Non believing in Santa is normal, and non believing in god is “communism”!

    I am close to understand religious people: They ARE RUNNING AWAY FROM THEIR RESPONSIBILITY! They do not want to feel responsible for anything!
    It is much more comfortable to rely to authority, no matter how stupid and how immoral it is, than to be a responsible human being making his own decisions and using his own brain.

    „Why would I be responsibe for anything, when I have an allmighty god to be responsible for me?“ is the way they reasoning.

    You saw: they even do not understand why is ripping of preganat women immoral!

    I would say they PRETEND they do not know/understand it, but this is even worse!
    THAT is real twofold morality!

  152. on 03 Jul 2010 at 10:15 am 152.Severin said …

    149 Horatio
    “Wouldn’t that be the ultimate in arrogance? Believing your morality is the one that should be followed by all. That seems to be a great cog in Communism”

    WHY cann’t we apply the same logic to religions?

    WHY can’t we say to christians: “believing your morality is the one that should be followed by all is an arrogance”.
    Is your message that christian morality described in the Bibel AND practiced through milleniums is right?

    Atheist morality does not include believing in god, but does not include stoning of non-virgin brides, killing of innocent children for some “sins” and ripping of pregnant women either.
    And, of course, aheist morality is NOT personal morality only: it is built in LAWS of most societies in the world!

  153. on 03 Jul 2010 at 10:22 am 153.Severin said …

    Burebista, Horatio, Boz, Xenon….

    If good and justified, WHY aren’t god’s laws built in human laws?

    It is a VERY simple question, and it should be very simple for you to answer it.

  154. on 03 Jul 2010 at 3:20 pm 154.Martin said …

    Here it is in an easy to understand statement. Faith is taught to Christians as children, to accept faith on faith is taught as a virtue to children. Of course to a child, faith is great, it is like a nice, warm, security blanket. There is a god up there taking care of us, but wait, isn’t that god a jealous god, a vengeful god? Oh no, didn’t he destroy the world once, wait, and what about this hell you keep preaching about.

    Oh, so because of original sin, no matter how good I am, no matter the deeds I do or the life I live, I am damned because some “ancient” ancestor named Adam, ate an apple. What’s that? Jesus, oh of course he came and died for that original sin, and thus I am able to go to heaven. What’s that? I “Might” be able to go to heaven, so long as I go to church, swallow the whole god thing, read the bible, give up ten percent of my wages, and convert others to have faith. Then, I’m going to heaven, right? No, why not? So, no matter what I do, no matter the good, the kindness, the virtuous life, that isn’t enough. I can only go to heaven through Jesus, but you said I have to go to church, do good deeds, pay my tithes, and now you are saying that all that is for nothing, because I can only go to heaven through Jesus’ death. Now, I’m confused. What’s that, OH FAITH, that’s what it means… I get it now, wait, no I don’t, but because I have faith, I’m good being confused.

    Now what? Oh, you want me to go to college and get an education. I like science, I think I’ll be a biologist, I hear they teach you to think and reason, and ask questions.. I like that, what’s that you say? I can be a scientist, just remember that the world is only 6,000 years old, and dinosaurs and man lived together? But, my education tells me differently, it says that the world is more like four billion years old, and that man didn’t arrive along with the dinosaurs. How do I accept your beliefs? OF FAITH again, I get it, so no matter what I learn, no matter what the evidence says, I am supposed to fall back to being five years old, and rely of FAITH… Wow, that’s just NUTS… I think I’ll be an atheist.

  155. on 04 Jul 2010 at 2:00 am 155.Truth & Reality said …

    “Wow, that’s just NUTS… I think I’ll be an atheist.”

    That is nuts! Why believe something so unreasonable. When you get out of HS, get a college education. Start with a religion class and realize how many religious individuals have degrees work with and in science, think, reason and everything!

    I go to church with many college professors living in a town with four universities. I just encourage you to educate yourself.

  156. on 04 Jul 2010 at 7:07 am 156.Severin said …

    155 T & R
    “Why believe something so unreasonable.”

    Why, T & R?

    No religion can stand a second against logic, science, common sense…

    So, again: why?

  157. on 04 Jul 2010 at 1:39 pm 157.Martin said …

    “That is nuts! Why believe something so unreasonable. When you get out of HS, get a college education.”

    Dude, why are you so angry? Why do you think that this kind of argument will sway anyone? I assure you, not only have I finished High School, but I have completed a terminal degree, I have taken several religion classes, AND I bet I’ve read your bible more clearly, and more thoroughly than you have.

    Your juvenile jibes serve NO purpose here, except to show you are just one of those angry Faith-Heads. So, go to church and pray for your sins, son.

  158. on 04 Jul 2010 at 1:45 pm 158.Martin said …

    “I go to church with many college professors living in a town with four universities. I just encourage you to educate yourself.”

    Congratulations, so you have become educated by osmosis, or is that by religion? Come, come, dear fellow, YOU do some research. Of the top tier scientists, both in America and in Europe, nearly 95% indicate NO belief in a personal god.

    I have worked at four universities over the past 26 years, MOST college professors who attend church do so out of a sense of public responsibility. Your taunt to me to take a religion class, really? So, a religion class will suddenly convert me, a former Bible Belt Christian, and make me come running back to the church. NOT going to happen no matter how much you taunt me.

    Oh, and so far, you haven’t made a single statement that disputes anything said here. You are taking the Ad Hominem approach to debate, and it isn’t working.

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