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Christianity Thomas on 15 Jun 2010 12:29 am

Touchdown Jesus is no more

Perhaps God was offended? Touchdown Jesus, which was made of fiberglass over foam on a metal frame, is no more. A lightning strike set the whole thing ablaze:

If Jesus is God, how does stuff like this get past the second commandment?

You shall not make for yourself a carved image – any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.

90 Responses to “Touchdown Jesus is no more”

  1. on 15 Jun 2010 at 8:56 pm 1.Xenon said …

    I think the “bow down and worship” is the key phrase here. I could be wrong, but where individuals bowing down and worshiping this graven image?

  2. on 16 Jun 2010 at 1:59 am 2.Godisamythdealwithit said …

    Well, hallelujah! I just hope they don’t waste hundreds of thousands of dollars rebuilding that eyesore. There are SO many better uses for that kind of money. Think of how many hungry people it could feed!

  3. on 16 Jun 2010 at 7:29 pm 3.Marcus said …

    Oh, the irony. An act of god blows a statue of jesus into pieces. It’s enough to make a rational, thinking person wonder if there really is a sky fairy.

  4. on 16 Jun 2010 at 7:52 pm 4.Boz said …

    “It’s enough to make a rational, thinking person wonder if there really is a sky fairy.”

    Not not really. I have never heard of a sky fairy but a rationale thinking person who knows the first thing about information science knows there must be a God.

  5. on 16 Jun 2010 at 8:05 pm 5.Marcus said …

    Boz. Grow up and get a life.

  6. on 16 Jun 2010 at 8:40 pm 6.Boz said …

    marcus, a thousand pardons, I thought you were referring to yourself rationale in your original post.

    Can I keep this life? I have really enjoyed it thus far.

  7. on 17 Jun 2010 at 1:02 pm 7.Marcus said …

    Boz – I’m glad you’re happy. I just don’t understand how you get to “,,,a rationale thinking person who knows the first thing about information science knows there must be a God.” Thus far in my own highly enjoyable existence I haven’t been shown a single shred of evidence by anyone that would convince me that such a statement is true. (By the way, I’m not trying to get into one of those futile ‘you prove there’s a god – no, no, you prove there isn’t a god’ debates here.) Just saying, I don’t get it.

  8. on 17 Jun 2010 at 2:58 pm 8.Martin said …

    Boz, my man, WHAT the heck are you saying? How can anyone know there is a god when no one has given one shred of empirical evidence to that claim? IF there was evidence of a god, this whole argument would be futile, and EVERY atheist in the world would bow down and worship, but there is NO such evidence.

    Science can’t prove everything, yet, but in the past five hundred years science has done more to disprove religion than religion has EVER done to disprove science. The world is no longer flat, the universe no longer revolves around the earth, and the list goes ON AND ON.

    I’ve written my argument against god many times, it goes into the religions of the ancients, who were so certain their gods were the only gods, and today we know they were wrong. And yet, here we are with today’s Christians making the very same claims. Do we learn nothing from history at all? Why do believers simply refuse to see the logic?

  9. on 17 Jun 2010 at 3:00 pm 9.Martin said …

    Faith is simply this: The act of believing because it comforts you. Mankind is comforted by the idea of a deity who protects them, judges them, and promises them eternal life. Sure, I can see this, what I can’t see is why?

  10. on 17 Jun 2010 at 5:01 pm 10.Boz said …

    “The world is no longer flat, the universe no longer revolves around the earth, and the list goes ON AND ON.”

    The Bible makes none of these claims. Next

    “Faith is simply this: The act of believing because it comforts you.”

    Which is exactly what the historical sciences are to man. Oort clouds: Do you believe in them? What about matter? From where did it originate? How did life evolve from lifeless matter? Got answers that would give one reason to eliminate God? No, or this discussion would not continue.

    Faith and reason are not mutually exclusive and this is where your line or reasoning breaks down in a HUGE way.

  11. on 18 Jun 2010 at 3:15 am 11.A real-ist said …

    “The world is no longer flat, the universe no longer revolves around the earth, and the list goes ON AND ON.”
    “The Bible makes none of these claims. Next”

    I think the point you are missing is that the majority of people believed it for most of human existence, just like people believe the bible. Someone had recently mentioned on one of these posts that people throughout history have believed in a God of some sort, so there must be something to it.

    The idea of a God was invented to fill in all the gaps we don’t understand as humans yet. For example, the bible states God created the rainbows. Now we know how rainbows are created, from the sun rays mixing with rain drops. Haven’t you heard the expression when someone hears thunder and another says that God must be bowling up in heaven? Another example is with the Egyption gods. They had the sun god and god of thunder. Why don’t they exist anymore? Because we know what the sun is and what creates thunder. Get the idea? God is just a knowledge gap filler. Nothing more.

  12. on 18 Jun 2010 at 3:27 am 12.Hazy Arc said …

    @Boz
    Just saying goddunit to fill in the gaps in our knowledge is not a satisfying answer. We don’t have all of the answers yet, but we will find out.

    Why do you believe in the God of the bible Boz?

  13. on 18 Jun 2010 at 7:04 am 13.Severin said …

    8 Martin
    ” …than religion has EVER done to disprove science.”

    You can not say they did not try!
    And an extremely bloody way! Typical CHRISTIAN way.
    They had a lot of examples in the Bible how to do it.

  14. on 18 Jun 2010 at 7:11 am 14.Severin said …

    10 Boz
    “The Bible makes none of these claims. Next’

    The bible claims god ordered A&E to multiply, forgetting the inbreeding problems (children of A&E had to sleep with each other to multiply!).

    The Bible claims god caused the big flood, but forgets to say where did he find all the necessary water (some 2.5 times more water than present on the entire earth!)

    The Bible claims god ordered Noah to put pairs of animals on his ark, but forgot kangaroos, polar bears, armadillos…
    Or, if he did not, HOW did Noah collect those animals?

    Need more?

  15. on 18 Jun 2010 at 12:14 pm 15.Martin said …

    “Faith and reason are not mutually exclusive and this is where your line or reasoning breaks down in a HUGE way.”

    Faith and reason are not mutually exclusive for those who have RELIGION, not for those of us who are Freethinkers. I do not need faith in order to reason, but you do.

    You use the bible argument against Flat Earth, ok, I’ll give you that, but the bible does speak of rape, killing, slavery all in the name of god, or god ordered. There are plenty of other claims made in the bible that we now KNOW do not exist, things like earthwide floods, a magical Jesus, prayer promises that NEVER get answered, THREE sets of the ten commandments, giants, extreme feats of physics, and the list goes on.

  16. on 18 Jun 2010 at 12:23 pm 16.Martin said …

    I have three questions for you. Why do you have the ability to understand the mythical nature of other religions/gods, like Islam, Mormon, Scientology, Aten, Zeus, and others and NOT be able to apply the same reason to Christianity?

    Where does god reside? Does he exist in this plane? IF he does then he occupies space and time and by reason should be detectable, but he is not. If he occupies space and time in another dimension then he has no power in this one.

    Do you believe that god is both ominpotent and omniscient? If so, how do you define free will within these very strict definitions.

  17. on 18 Jun 2010 at 12:27 pm 17.Martin said …

    “The bible claims god ordered A&E to multiply, forgetting the inbreeding problems (children of A&E had to sleep with each other to multiply!).”

    I had to comment on this, on another blog post, I actually read that inbreeding between Adam and Eve’s children was acceptable back then because their DNA was “pure” and there wasn’t any chance of deformities due to recessive genes. So, the ONLY reason my sister and I shouldn’t have sex is because our genetic structure is contaminated, but what if I wear a condom or get a vasectomy? Then my first cousin, who is HOT and I can do it like bunnies? AWESOME…. (note I did not say my sister, well she’s not hot.)

  18. on 18 Jun 2010 at 4:35 pm 18.Observer said …

    Boz #4- “but a rationale thinking person who knows the first thing about information science knows there must be a God.” This is splendid. Assuming you meant rational instead of “rationale”, and assuming you mean information theory, instead of “information science”, how precisely does information theory fit into the existence of “God”?

    As for the assertion the Bible does not put Earth at the center of the universe, I plead with you to visit the unsurpassed

    http://www.fixedearth.com/

  19. on 18 Jun 2010 at 5:04 pm 19.Boz said …

    Not familiar with information science O? Let me spoon feed you.

    http://www.isis.duke.edu/

    The Bible does not put the earth and the center of the universe. Wouldn’t you be better served quoting the Bible to prove me wrong rather than the tired worn out site you constantly throw our for the bloggers?

    I’m beginning to believe you are the developer. Check that, you are now the webmaster. Congratulations.

    To quote hazy, “We don’t have all of the answers yet, but we will find out.”

    The Boz

  20. on 18 Jun 2010 at 6:58 pm 20.Martin said …

    Perhaps the bible does not say specifically that the earth was flat, but it does infer it on several occasions. Does Satan not infer that he will give Jesus dominion over the entire earth, and yet he says that the entire earth is what could be seen from the mountain? Just a thought?

    The quote about not having all the answers yet, is not hazy at all. Science has done more to disprove religion than religion has managed to disprove science. I am amazed by that statement. Also, the person who built this site is very insightful and has an extremely solid argument against a god. I can’t see how anyone can dispute his rationale…. Wow.

  21. on 18 Jun 2010 at 7:25 pm 21.Boz said …

    Yes martin other the Is 40:22, and Proverbs 8:27 your flat earth idea would hold water. Phrases like 4 corners of the earth does not mean those individuals believe the world is flat. Flat earth was promoted by so-called intellectuals more than by the church.

    “Also, the person who built this site is very insightful and has an extremely solid argument against a god.”

    I have been through the site. It is the same old tired arguments that prove, well nothing.
    I did not see one solid fact that disproves God. Maybe you could point all us uneducated religious folks in the correct direction. The funniest was the prayer test as if God is a circus animal. A classic! The Bible clearly states NOT to test your Lord God, however Thomas claims this a proof. Sorry, not even close.

    Hazy was directed at a blogger name, it is not a metaphor.

  22. on 18 Jun 2010 at 8:11 pm 22.Severin said …

    Boz
    Can you tell us how did Noah get kangaroos to his ark?

    Can you explain why god based the spreading of humans all over the earth by incestous sex?
    Every farmer knows inbreeding is bad for species and leads to degaradation. Your god did not know it!

    Are Germans, Indians, African people, Eskimos, Chineses, Aborigins, all descendats of A&E? ALL of them came from only 1 pair of genes?

    VERY simple questions, it should not be difficult for you to answer them. Enlighten us!

  23. on 18 Jun 2010 at 8:18 pm 23.Severin said …

    19 Boz
    “The Bible does not put the earth and the center of the universe.”

    I have no time to read the whole Bibe again. Maybe it says something about flat earth and earth as a center of the universe, maybe not.

    BUT, christian church DID claim the earth was the center of our solar system. What were their claims based on, I do not know, but you can not say the christian church just “babbled”!
    They were DEADLY serious!
    They burnt people who oposed their teachings.

  24. on 19 Jun 2010 at 12:56 am 24.Martin said …

    “I did not see one solid fact that disproves God. Maybe you could point all us uneducated religious folks in the correct direction. The funniest was the prayer test as if God is a circus animal. A classic! The Bible clearly states NOT to test your Lord God, however Thomas claims this a proof. Sorry, not even close.”

    Boz, the circular argument that we should not “test” god is the WORST argument ever. Those poor parents of the children dying of cancer do not seek to test god they seek to have him listen to them. Why does he not? God has a very poor statistical performance where prayer is concerned, it’s almost like its, well, coincidence.

    Oh, and the whole “point all us uneducated religous folks in the right direction” is just poor sport and you know it, not called for. Further, IF the reality of a godless world smacked you in the head, if you are not willing to accept it, you will NEVER be Pointed in the Right Direction, my friend. If you live by faith, then I applaud you, in fact I do not normally debate Christians over the claims discussed here, but since this is an Atheist website, I felt I should. Normally, the only thing I am worried about in religion is the separation of church and state… You can have your religion, it’s like homosexuality, as long as you don’t expect me to participate, knock yourself out.

  25. on 19 Jun 2010 at 1:12 am 25.Martin said …

    I just had to post a few examples of how kind Christians can be toward Atheists, for those of you who think you are persecuted because you are a theist.

    “America WILL become a Christian Republic even if we have to write a whole new constitution. Millions of us are dedicated to this righteous cause. We will suceed. And then we will invade godless countries like “Great” Britain and kill all of your heathens. First we need to take care of things at home and in the Middle East but we will get around to Europe. You Godless freaks will die but then you will roast in hell for infinite time. Goodbye you loser.”

    “you suck.. go burn in hell.. Satan Will Enjoy torturing you.. what happened mum didnt pay enough attention to you so you decided to rebel.. I hope for your own sake you see your grave mistake and repent.. God Dwells among as everyday.. you are the spawn of evil.
    Christian living for God!!”

    “I hope you die slowly and you fucking burn in hell! You dammed
    blasfemy!!! Right now you are rotting on the inside… But you must
    now (sic) that there is indeed a God! A great god! And he will forgive you if you regret from your fucking behavior. And you should realise thatyour entire life has been a delusion…and that right now your destiny is all fucked up! Fucking atheist!!!!!!!!!!! ”

    I want to thank Richard Dawkins for sharing these actual letters written to him by “god fearing” Christians.

  26. on 19 Jun 2010 at 2:03 am 26.Xenon said …

    Martin

    Now i ask you to prove Christians actually posted these articles? You have proof? You know these individuals for a fact are Christian and truly wish these things?

    Right, a college professor would never accept these “posts” as fact they are christian individuals. Well, unless the professor has a vendetta.

    So do you have an answer to Boz’s question? I have been through the site and none of the evidence would hold up in court. I assure you.

    Severin only goes to the fallacy of changing the subject. He is an old timer, we expect it. Will that be your approach?

  27. on 19 Jun 2010 at 3:12 am 27.A real-ist said …

    The people that wrote the bible lived during the time that everyone thought the earth was flat. So they did believe it. They just didn’t have a reason to mention it in the bible. Just because they didn’t have a chance to put it in the bible doesn’t mean they thought the earth was not flat. Just thought I would clear up that arguement.

  28. on 19 Jun 2010 at 11:31 am 28.Martin said …

    A vendetta, sure that’s it, like all Christians, I’m sure you think I have some hatred, that somehow I was “hurt” by religion, or I’m angry. The fact is, I have no vendetta at all, I simply find it fucking amusing, and trust me, I’ve been attacked similarly by Christians, so if they are “true” or not, do I care? Nope, this is an ATHEIST site, not a Christian one.

    Now, Xenon, the site’s claim doesn’t have to hold up in a court of law, anymore than the fallacy of Christianity would hold up in a court of law. Come on, you HAVE to admit that god’s success rate for prayer is way low for an Omnipotent being. The tired old “because god says so” is pretty ancient if you want to talk old school. The “you can’t test god” worked when I was five and needed a supreme being.

    So, because I am a college professor, YOU and others seem to be hacking the fuck out of that, why is that? Are you actually that jealous? What is your profession, so I can continously remark about it, as if it is some demonistic profession or something to be ashamed of. It’s as if you think because I am an atheist professor, somehow that makes me, what?

    As for the disproof of god, well now as this is an Atheist site, and YOU are making the claim that there is a god, the burden of proof lies with YOU, not the other way around. You obviously don’t get the whole debate thing, do you. You make the claim of existence, therefore you have the burden of proof. See to me, it is like my saying that faeries, dragons, or Santa exist, then I am required to prove to you why I make such a claim.

    The only question I need answered by Christians is the one that is asked repeatedly. If YOU are certain that the Muslim god, Zeus, Aten, and ever Joseph Smith’s version of god, is false, YOU are REQUIRED by logic to at least agree that the possibility of the Christian god being in the same set. Otherwise, you beg the question.

  29. on 19 Jun 2010 at 1:31 pm 29.Xenon said …

    Martin

    Calm down. No need for multiple F-bombs and such anger.

    First you didn’t answer a single question. You and this site claim there is no God. To make such claims you need to provide at minimum some evidence. Wouldn’t you expect that from students? Would you not agree this being an atheist site that their purpose is to convert and support their position?

    Why do you assume God does not answer prayer? Is it because he doesn’t answer the way you intended or is it because he didn’t answer the prayer of an atheist?

    I’m sorry for referring to your work. I didn’t know it was a sensitive matter. Being a professor is nothing to be ashamed of as a profession. Personally I am a private consultant.

    “YOU are REQUIRED by logic to at least agree that the possibility of the Christian god being in the same set.”

    Really, I am REQUIRED? That would like me attempting to explain to you what a great and wonderful father I had when you have never met him. I understand an atheist believing they are in the same set. That is because you don’t know Him. However some research in to the history of each would begin to draw distinctions.

  30. on 19 Jun 2010 at 5:34 pm 30.Martin said …

    “Why do you assume God does not answer prayer? Is it because he doesn’t answer the way you intended or is it because he didn’t answer the prayer of an atheist?”

    Can you provide proof that god answers prayers? Can you give me specific proof, that can be verified independently by science? Or, am I required to simply believe because of faith?

    And if you understood LOGIC you would understand that there are some things that in LOGIC you are required to accept by definition, to do otherwise you again, do nothing but beg the question and put god back into the role of being because he wants to be. YOU do not have a personal relationship with a god, any god, because by definition a personal relationship requires communication. Unless you are prepared to say that you and god carry on a conversation, then that argument fails to persuade me.

    And, your claim that no evidence against god is incorrect, yet again. The fact that NO evidence for god is enough for me, perhaps not to you as a believer. I have no REAL evidence that a white, bearded man, doesn’t live somewhere in the North Pole, I have no real proof that Faeries do not exist beyond the fact that no proof exists that they are real; and yet, those in the normal range know they do not exist.

    God only exists for the believer, and that is not enough to convince me a being exists in some plane with the magical power to control matter, bend the laws of physics, create life from nothing, who has been here forever, who knows everyting before it happens, has the ability to handle every human’s thoughts, and the cosmos at the same time. The answer that god works in mysterious ways, is silly. The claim that he answers prayers, is simply not provable, not statistically nor scientifically. I am sorry, well not really, but I can not believe that there were two gods in the bible, the old and new testament versions. I can’t believe god upgraded, unless he’s a computer program.

    Let me ask, have you read the entire bible, cover to cover? If you have, how do you recocile with your logic, the incredible claims made, the inconsistencies, and the atrocities of your religion?

    No one has yet answered the question, if you can claim that all other gods are false, WHAT proof do you offer, beyond your Faith, that you god is real? I need an answer.

  31. on 19 Jun 2010 at 5:51 pm 31.Martin said …

    As to your claim about atheists trying to convert anyone, you are mistaken. Atheists do NOT have a belief system, we do not have a doctrine, or a bible. I do not believe that atheist sites, by definition, are constructed to convert anyone, we don’t have anything to convert you to.

    If you did not come on here to deliver your brand of debate, I can assure you that we would never have met on a Christian site. I do not go on those sites, because I know what they are about, and I am not looking to be converted. I have nothing to gain there, what do you gain here?

    I contest that YOU come to atheist sites because you have internal doubts, and are seeking to either understand those doubts or find a way to make yourself more “faithful.” Either that or you are just one who likes to stir up a debate and this gets you off in some way.

  32. on 19 Jun 2010 at 6:22 pm 32.state of ..? said …

    “Atheists do NOT have a belief system”

    I beg to differ, Atheist “believe”(big word) that Science has the answers. Atheist “believe” their is no God, etc, etc.<(That is a belief system) Now, Atheist have a religion? idk, that’s really up to you to decide with a dictionary.

    “Can you provide proof that god answers prayers? Can you give me specific proof, that can be verified independently by science? Or, am I required to simply believe because of faith?”

    Proof can be demonstrated but it’s up to you if you want to hear it. Actually, you can participate in a local church, mosque, etc.. It is really of your choosing.

  33. on 19 Jun 2010 at 6:54 pm 33.Xenon said …

    “I contest that YOU come to atheist sites because you have internal doubts, and are seeking to either understand those doubts or find a way to make yourself more “faithful.”

    Martin, you come across as SO angry. I come here because I enjoy the study of apologetics. I am fascinated with those who believe creation comes about with no designer and no creator?

    Believe in Oort clouds Martin? Physicists do and there is no evidence for them other than to fit there presuppositions. Believe in Big bang? Where did the matter originate? You live by faith as much as anyone.

    If the site is not to convert, why bother? Preaching to the choir?

    If you will not answer the questions, just say so. No animosity here.

    State

    Of course they have a belief system. Al human beings do. I have even read articles by atheist calling other atheist to evangelism. I guess they do find some good in the religious, huh?

    I have had many prayers answered many times. My mother was cured from MS 35 years ago and scientist have no answer. There you go.

  34. on 19 Jun 2010 at 9:51 pm 34.Martin said …

    Let’s start first with your Mom, congratulations, I am very happy for her and for you. But, what of the countless others with MS who have prayed just as earnestly as you have, and have died?

    My son, who is an atheist, and one of his soldiers, he is an army officer, both were shot in Iraq at the start of May. My son, who has never prayed in his life, was shot through the chest, piercing his lung, and breaking a rib. The bullet exited his hip. Now, his sargeant was shot in areas that doctors said were not life threatening by most standards, and yet he died, even though his mother sat with me in Germany and prayed every day for a week. I never once asked for a miracle, and yet, my son survived. Was that god or chance?

    So, according to your story, your mother was saved from a terrible death, and for that I am again very happy for you, but thousands die horribly from the same disease every decade or so, does god not love them, or are you special in some way?

    I can’t speak for all atheists, but I can speak for myself. I do not care if you have religion or not, my entire family, siblings, father, cousins, all believe in god, and I wish them no ill will, nor am I angry about it. I believe that you are oversensative to my method of debate, for that I am truly sorry. I will attempt to tone down my passion, just for you. Now, I do not have a belief system, well not where a deity is concerned, and that was what I was refering to in my post. If you want to call what I have a belief system, then it is the belief that we all have a place in this world, one life to get it right, and dying isn’t so bad.

    Now, as to the creation theory, do you believe as others that the world is only 7,000 years old or so? That dinosaurs and men walked together, that there was this great flood? Are you a bible believer? I do not claim that the Big Bang theory is the answer, I do not claim that science has all the answers as I am not a scientist, I just do not have any evidence that a god exists, period.

  35. on 19 Jun 2010 at 9:56 pm 35.Martin said …

    State of? I aplologize that I was unclear in my definition of a belief system. I do not have a religous belief system, and I do not seek to deconvert anyone from their religious belief systems. IF they chose to discuss the difference between our “belief” systems, then I am game. I find that most Christians tend to turn to anger when their reason fails. I am afraid that I got caught up in that very cycle on here.

    Here’s a thought. Let’s begin over shall we. We both agree to disagree, and we will agree to answer two questions from the other. Do you agree?

  36. on 19 Jun 2010 at 10:09 pm 36.Martin said …

    Oh and let me explain something if I may. I was born in South Carolina, in the middle of the Bible Belt. I would wager that I have spent more time in church than MOST true believers, I have studied the belief system of Christianity, Islam, and even the Far Eastern philosophy of the TAO.

    I attended a church supported college, and was required to attend 12 credit hours of religion classes. I took religions of the world, the old and new testaments, and a course on religious philosophy. I have read the bible from cover to cover at least three times, I have studied theology, philosophy, logic, some math, and I hold four college degrees. I am not boasting here, so forgive me, I am only stating the facts.

    I have told you I am a college professor by profession. I taught at SC State University, Orangeburg-Calhoun Community College, Spartanburg Methodist College, Finlandia University, and have just this past week accepted a position at Utica College, a part of Syracuse University. I have mainly taught courses in writing, human sexuality, economics, study and time management, and human growth and development.

    So, when you suggest that I do a little research or go to a church, please know that I have sat in many pews, kneeled at many alters, and was baptised in the Methodist Church as well as the Southern Baptist. I was married to a Southern Baptist minister’s daughter for 20 years, and attended enough Sunday and Wednesday services to last me a lifetime.

  37. on 19 Jun 2010 at 10:59 pm 37.stae of ..? said …

    “Now, as to the creation theory, do you believe as others that the world is only 7,000 years old or so? That dinosaurs and men walked together, that there was this great flood? Are you a bible believer? I do not claim that the Big Bang theory is the answer, I do not claim that science has all the answers as I am not a scientist, I just do not have any evidence that a god exists, period.”

    Forgive me of intruding, I do not believe the world is 7,000 yrs old, or 12,000 yrs old, or even 6,000 yrs old. The dinosaurs did not walk with men. There was a great flood, may have flooded the region or world, this I do not know. Yes, I am a Bible believer, now i just think differently than other Christians. I do believe in the big bang theory just with a supernatural help.

    “So, when you suggest that I do a little research or go to a church, please know that I have sat in many pews, kneeled at many alters, and was baptised in the Methodist Church as well as the Southern Baptist. I was married to a Southern Baptist minister’s daughter for 20 years, and attended enough Sunday and Wednesday services to last me a lifetime.”

    Forgive me if I made assumptions of your life. I am very proud of what you have accomplished, this not a sarcastic statement. Now, have you gone to a Christian chruch, or any other worship center of a differnet religion? You know the difference between Christian and Catholic demominations, so try that. One more question, on a scale from one to ten, how sure are you that there is no God?

  38. on 20 Jun 2010 at 12:24 am 38.Xenon said …

    Martin,

    Belief in God is two-fold and attending a church for many years is not among my personal criteria. I spent some time in the upstate SC and even went to church a few times. I was there to fulfill an obligation and it meant nothing. Paul was a pharisee, among the most educated, but he met Jesus on a road.

    Creation is a tremendous testament to God. The famous atheist Antony Flew even had to admit creation pointed to a God. The great scientist Francis Collins(You sort of blew him off on the other thread) has written a book based on the human genome project that shows how DNA even points to God.

    Second, my own personal encounter 30 years ago is my greatest testament to God. He changed me form a drunken drug abusing hateful brawling no count into a devoted husband and father and he did it instantaneously. That was over 30 years ago. Those who know me personally call it a miracle but that is just my personal experience. Take it or leave it but it is like finding the answer to life. I have never doubted it since.

    No amount of atheist reasoning, science or philosophy could ever change my mind on what Jesus has done in my life.

  39. on 20 Jun 2010 at 12:46 am 39.Martin said …

    To Stae.. I have attended nearly every denomination of church there is from Catholic to Jewish. I am fairly familiar with nearly ever doctrine there is. I’m happy to hear you are a different Christian, what I’ll call a progressive Christian and I was probably where you are in my younger days.

    As for my level of certainty, I would say I am at a nine on your scale.

  40. on 20 Jun 2010 at 1:02 am 40.Martin said …

    Xenon, your story is told time and again, even by some of my own family members, and I’ll tell you what I tell everyone. IF god and religion has turned your life around, then religion has been good for you and a positive experience. Whether god is proven or not, shouldn’t matter to you, the experience turned your life around and that is what counts.

    I really do not seek to tear down your beliefs or your god. In the relationship that you have, I feel it is a positive thing; however, there is a darker side to religion, as there is to atheism. It is this side that worries me. I will not likely change my views on god, unless I am handed more proof than is available today. When or if that happens, as I said before, I’m prepared to defend myself, though I don’t think I’ll have to.

    I believe in freedom, and with that is the freedom of religion and from religion. I am confident that if all religions would accept this, then we could move forward. I did read some excerpts from Collins, and he is indeed a brilliant man, and his work on the genome project will surely benefit mankind. I just don’t happen to agree with some of his findings, especially when he gets to the faith parts. In his book Collins examines and subsequently rejects creationism and intelligent design. His own belief system is theistic evolution or evolutionary creation which he prefers to term BioLogos.

    I can’t see value,logic or consistency with his belief that God is the explanation of those features of the universe that science finds difficult to explain (such as the values of certain physical constants favoring life), and that God himself does not need an explanation since he is beyond the universe.

    In order for their to be existance in the universe we know that something must occupy both time and space, and without this constant, all laws of physics are broken. If god does not occupy time and space, he can’t have a direct bearing on cause and effect. I don’t claim to understand everything about logic or physics, but I do know that there have to be constants, and when we bend these constants, we have no more than fantasy and illusion. Just my thought.

  41. on 20 Jun 2010 at 1:24 am 41.Martin said …

    “I am fascinated with those who believe creation comes about with no designer and no creator?”

    I have a confession, I do believe that we have a creator, just not a deity. I believe that we were created over the course of time, by forces that are natural not supernatural. That’s all I’m saying. I do not believe that our creator is a sentient being, but is the process from billions of years of combinations of natural events.

    This explaination of how I came into being does not worry me or make my existence any less phenomenal or precious. I saw the birth of two children and a grandson, and I am in awe of nature and all that beauty has to offer. I do not need to assign this to a being greater than myself, I do not need a god or a father figure. I am a moral being because I chose to be, not because of fear of punishment or the reward of an afterlife. To me, LIFE is my reward, the love I have for my wife and children, for my planet, for my fellow man, for the beauty of everything, simply is enough for me.

  42. on 20 Jun 2010 at 2:47 am 42.Martin said …

    stae and xenon, you have both made me think, so I would like to ask some serious questions, not asked in any way other than with respect to wanting to hear your opinions. Thanks.

    There are only three explainations of the author/s of the bible.
    1. The bible is the absolute word of god, written by god.
    2. The bible is only partly the absolute word of god, written in part by man and part by god.
    3. The bible is not the word of god, written by ancient man.

    In 1, you must accept ALL written in the bible as the word and deeds of god. In 2, you accept that only parts of the bible actually are the word of god, and other parts are fallacy, and in 3, you accept that the entire book was written by ancient man and is not the word of god.

    Question: How do you see the bible, or is there another possible explaination? No matter what you accept, as I see it, there are issues. The bible is arguably filled with some very disturbing images of the cruelty of man, and of god. If you accept 1, it would appear that god is cruel and has condoned some very nasty things over time, if you accept 2, then how do you know which parts were written by god and which were written by man, and finally if you agree with 3, how do you see it as a divine instrument? Again, I am very curious, not challenging the bible, just want to hear your opinion.

  43. on 20 Jun 2010 at 7:47 am 43.Severin said …

    28 martin
    “You make the claim of existence, therefore you have the burden of proof. See to me, it is like my saying that faeries, dragons, or Santa exist, then I am required to prove to you why I make such a claim.”

    I am debating here for some time, a year or more, very persistently, but I never understood my oponent’s “logic”.

    Their logic is EXACTLY the same as the ex-USSR constitution (from a joke):
    &1: The communist party is always right
    &2: In case communist party is not right, apply &1

    Althought absolutely the same logic rules can be applied to Santa, vampires, fairies, Allah, dragons, mermates, Cyclops, Zeus, Qutzalcoatl ….they (believers from this blog) accept them in case of the above listed creatures, but NEVER accept (the very same logic!) in case of their god.

    They even NEVER answer the simple question:
    WHY is christianity better (more „true“, more „correct“) than Islam (Islam here only as example, not to list other religions).
    You will never get any answer to such a question!
    Because there is no rational one, and they allways just neglect such questions!

    Beside enjoying it, I have some rational reasons to keep debating here and I will continue.

  44. on 20 Jun 2010 at 3:21 pm 44.Observer said …

    Boz #19- Again, you try to sound intelligent, and to the delight of your followers on this blog, you accomplish quite the opposite. I am familiar with the term Information Science… My experience with the term is an updated version of what had been known as Library Science- not too much science actually involved, it is more like engineering. I thought there was a chance your might actually be trying to say something which might hint at thought or intelligence, hence my reference to information theory.

    Following the Duke link, I do see from the offered courses how the Duke Information Science curriculum might help a theist, or particularly a Christian, maintain their faith in God. A few of the courses seem specifically tailored to the Christians/theists among us:

    ISIS 155S Interactive Game Design
    ISIS 170.01 Constructing Immersive Virtual Worlds
    ISIS 151S.01 Digital Storytelling Computation Fictions and New Media Storytelling

    As for my beloved http://www.fixedearth.com, sadly, I have nothing to do with the site except its relentless promotion. The site reflects what all true Christian aspire to. I adore it and the lunatic who made the site. Listen to audio. It betters The Onion.

    One last point, this will no doubt show up here sooner or later. This is Christianity at its finest. Bust your 401ks, IRAs, and Roths while there is still time to party like it is 2012…

    From the San Francisco Chronicle…

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/lastyearonearth/detail?entry_id=65206

  45. on 20 Jun 2010 at 4:07 pm 45.Martin said …

    Observer, if you like that site, try this one, http://www.christwire.org it is one of the funniest Christian Satire sites on the Net. I found if by accident, and I laugh at it every day, especially since I came from the South and some of their rants sound so much like what I was exposed to growing up.

  46. on 20 Jun 2010 at 4:19 pm 46.Martin said …

    Someone asked me recently if this site is for Atheists and does not seek to sway anyone away from Christianity or religion in general, why have it? Like preaching to the choir. Well, I have been thinking about this for several days and here is my reasoning for having sites like this.

    I believe there are many more atheists in the US than the numbers bear out. I believe that most atheists are “closet atheists” because they are held in such disregard IF they come out. America, as one of the advanced nations, allows its Christians voices to hold way too much sway in the dealings of its government. Far more than others, like the UK, Sweden, and many other European nations.

    Preaching to the choir, gives those closet atheists a voice, and encouragement to speak up, to have pride in their Non-belief systems. We need to raise the conssciousness, it is almost universally held that faith somehow is afforded a certain amount of politeness and respectability, thus giving those of faith some feeling of empowerment. Christians, particularly, feel that anything said against their faith is a personal attack on them, and that they are allowed by some tacit approval of society to pummel us “atheist heathens” back into the closet we came from. The idea is from the Might makes Right argument, which fails in so many ways.

    So that is why these sites are so valuable to mankind, they give a voice to a growing minority, they give comfort and empowerment to an otherwise often voiceless and seemingly powerless segment of the US population. So, I am proud to be part of this movement, this understanding of the world we live in from a different point of view. Do not misunderstand passion that is able to change its mind for fundamentalism.

  47. on 20 Jun 2010 at 8:09 pm 47.Boz said …

    Observer, is you ego large enough for this blog? If only you were worthy of your grand illusions.

    Information science would be defined as the science of gathering, manipulating, storing, retrieving, and classifying recorded information. Try reviewing some of this data from the natural sciences (oops hope this term is OK)and one marvels at the complexity of our grand Creator.

    I guess nit picking is all you have left.

    Mar,

    “Christians, particularly, feel that anything said against their faith is a personal attack on them”

    Is that so? Try heading over to Indonesia and speak out against Islam. While you are at it, read your own post. You are very much an oversensitive guy. Christians are as a group easy targets because they typically do not react in rage.

  48. on 20 Jun 2010 at 9:53 pm 48.Marcus said …

    Guess you aren’t including the xtian fuckwit Bill Donohue of the Catholic League, Boz. He certainly seems to get all raged up about things, doesn’t he?

    For example, here’s what he said when the owners of the Empire State Building refused his demand that they light up their landmark to honour the 100th birthday of that old fraud and lover of dark-age morals, Mother Teresa:

    “I think that too many Catholics have fallen asleep at the wheel. It’s time for people, the rank and file to say enough is enough. I hope it’s going to be non-violent, I wouldn’t encourage violence but I know there’s a lot of anger.

    He isn’t just reacting with rage he’s positively encouraging it. A bit like Indonesian imams, one might suggest.

  49. on 20 Jun 2010 at 11:26 pm 49.Boz said …

    I hope it’s going to be non-violent, I wouldn’t encourage violence but I know there’s a lot of anger.

    LOL, saying he hopes it is non-violent is encouraging it? well, to an theist I guess it is, right? You worked hard for that one! Can you get your fellow Chinese to let up on the Christians?

  50. on 20 Jun 2010 at 11:57 pm 50.Martin said …

    “Christians, particularly, feel that anything said against their faith is a personal attack on them”

    Is that so? Try heading over to Indonesia and speak out against Islam. While you are at it, read your own post. You are very much an oversensitive guy. Christians are as a group easy targets because they typically do not react in rage.”

    I think you make my point, not so much against Christianity, but against religion as a whole. All religions take offense, sometimes violently so, against their belief systems, so I agree with that. What I meant to say is that in general, and on this site we typically talk Christianity, that Christians and non-believers, tend to give Christianity in America much underserved respect. It’s as if to challenge Christianity is seen as a affront to all that is good.

    Douglas Adams said once, “Yet when you look at it rationally, there is no reason why those ideas (Christianity and the belief in god) shouldn’t be as open to debate as as any other, except that we have agreed somehow between us that they shouldn’t be.”

    As for personal attacks on MY responses, I have addressed those and will not address them again. You feeble attempt to draw me into a heated exchange, is futile.

  51. on 20 Jun 2010 at 11:58 pm 51.Martin said …

    “Christians, particularly, feel that anything said against their faith is a personal attack on them”

    Is that so? Try heading over to Indonesia and speak out against Islam. While you are at it, read your own post. You are very much an oversensitive guy. Christians are as a group easy targets because they typically do not react in rage.”

    I think you make my point, not so much against Christianity, but against religion as a whole. All religions take offense, sometimes violently so, against their belief systems, so I agree with that. What I meant to say is that in general, and on this site we typically talk Christianity, that Christians and non-believers, tend to give Christianity in America much underserved respect. It’s as if to challenge Christianity is seen as a affront to all that is good.

    Douglas Adams said once, “Yet when you look at it rationally, there is no reason why those ideas (Christianity and the belief in god) shouldn’t be as open to debate as as any other, except that we have agreed somehow between us that they shouldn’t be.”

    As for personal attacks on MY responses, I have addressed those and will not address them again. Your feeble attempt to draw me into a heated exchange, is futile.

  52. on 21 Jun 2010 at 12:06 am 52.Martin said …

    “Guess you aren’t including the xtian fuckwit Bill Donohue of the Catholic League,”

    I also give you a quote written in response to Einstien’s statement that he did not believe in a personal god, but instead when he put god into the context of science, he meant that god is in the science, not that he was a sentient being.

    From the Founder of the Calvary Tabernacle in Oklahoma; “..we invite you, if you do not believe in the god of the people of this nation, to go back where you came from…. Take your crazy, fallacious theory of evolution and go back to Germany where you came from….stop trying to break down the faith of a people who gave you welcome when you were forced to flee from your native land.”

    Strong words, indeed, for a man noted then and even now, as one of the most important minds in the modern history of the world. This is just ONE, but I could cite many.

  53. on 21 Jun 2010 at 12:54 am 53.Boz said …

    “I think you make my point, not so much against Christianity, but against religion as a whole.”

    Ah, shifting the goal post? Can’t support your calim against the Christians so now just use the term “religion”. Well I agree, many things done in the name of religion. In the last 100 years more murders have been brought about by communism. The worlds number intolerant atheistic system of belief or religion.

    Atheism sure doesn’t bring the utopia you would expect. I wonder why? Not really.

    When atheism offers as much good to the world as the many Chritian based world help organiztions, come back and make your charges.

    Until then, do some good for the world other than telling theist the sun doesn’t exist when we see so clearly it does. It it easy to be the Monday morning quarterback isn’t martin.

  54. on 21 Jun 2010 at 1:07 am 54.Boz said …

    “Some beliefs are so dangerous it might be ethical to kill the believers” Sam Harris

    Wow, now that is a dangerous guy you atheist hold up as a hero.

  55. on 21 Jun 2010 at 1:20 am 55.Martin said …

    “In the last 100 years more murders have been brought about by communism. The worlds number intolerant atheistic system of belief or religion.”

    Talk about moving the goal post, you went to another field entirely.

    I think you are trying to assign the good in religion to only a very few religious groups, the the doctrines of the Falwells, and those televangelists who are raking in millions, tax free, are the doctrines that more Americans follow. Communism is NOT an atheist group, they did not seek to disprove or claim that god did not exist, they sought to erradicate the control of religion over the people. Perhaps the Communists saw the competition from religion in controlling their people.

    I have not now, nor EVER claimed that Atheism is in some way a utopic world view, nor have I claimed, and probably very few atheists would claim, that either religion or non-religion will ever free the world of its problems. THAT is your argument, not mine.

    “Until then, do some good for the world other than telling theist the sun doesn’t exist when we see so clearly it does”

    I find it extremely funny that believers always fall back on the argument, wrongly, that atheists do not good in the world. I will wager that my time in this world has been for far more good than yours and perhaps many, many of the “good” christians you refer to. I simply give of my time, money, and talents for the right reasons, not because I expect some mythical reward after death.

    Imagine, instead of all the wonderful riches that the Catholic Church hoards, or the many millions televangelist spend on Crystal Cathedrals, and massive churches, that if that money were spent on the betterment of mankind. Imagine, if Christians met in open fields to pray, and gave their money so that people in their own towns might have food, shelter, and hope. Imagine that you were starving to DEATH, your children were dying all around you and someone came from, say Africa, to tell you of this wonderful god who will give you all you need if you just pray and believe in him… even as you watch your children die.

    Finally, I hate to burst your Christian view of peace and love, but you brought this up. What of the millions upon millions of Native Americans who died when Christian Europeans sought to take their land, kill their children, take their children away to Christian led schools to reeducate the heathens? What of the Africans who were enslaved in this country, MOST of them by Christian landowners. How many of those HUMANS were bought, sold, bred, beaten, killed, raped, and broken, all by the wondeful Christian communities in our country? Finger pointing almost always results in the finger finding a way back to you, always.

  56. on 21 Jun 2010 at 1:29 am 56.Martin said …

    ““Some beliefs are so dangerous it might be ethical to kill the believers” Sam Harris”

    Atheist do not just NOT believe in the Christian god, and I think that is also something that many Christians feel, but instead we say that all religion is founded in the belief in a false god. GOD or GODS do NOT exist… period.

    As I said, there are bad atheists as well as good Christians, I have never claimed otherwise. I am open to having the worst of atheism pointed out, are you open and ready to have the worst of RELIGION pointed out?

    Again, I agree with Richard Dawkins, Christians simply can’t understand when their belief system is questioned because they have gotten a “free pass” for so long. It’s like when talking about religion, you better tip toe, or you are seen as attacking their beliefs… there is an unhealthy sphere of touchiness surrounding religion, for sure.

  57. on 21 Jun 2010 at 1:36 am 57.Martin said …

    And just for the record, I don’t know this Sam Harris guy from Adam Smith. I don’t hold anyone UP as a hero any more than I hold up any god as my lord and savior. I, fortunately, have the ability and the intellect, to think for myself.

    Another fallacy of the Christians is that all atheist came to the conclusion of atheism because we were somehow “decoverted” by someone else.

    Unlike Christianity, most atheist were not indoctrinated by our parents and families into atheism, we came to this conclusion much on our own. We don’t have a lifetime of history as atheists, we don’t seek out others to validate how we feel or why we do not believe. Sure, it’s nice to have a company of like minded individuals upon whom we can bounce our ideas and thoughts against and sure, it’s always nice to find a friendly forum for our beliefs. Remember, we do not go to atheist church on Sundays to get our weekly reminder of why we don’t believe in god.

  58. on 21 Jun 2010 at 1:42 am 58.Martin said …

    “When atheism offers as much good to the world as the many Chritian based world help organiztions, come back and make your charges. ”

    You do know that many non-sectarian and atheist groups provide charitable help all over the world, right?

    Earth’s Atheist Resistance To Holy Wars And Religious Devastation or EARTHWARD provides humanitarian aid to victims of religiously motivated violence.

    Foundation Beyond Belief is a brand new atheist charity which launched January 1, 2010. Each quarter Foundation Beyond Belief will feature ten charitable organizations, one each in the categories of animal protection, child welfare, education, environment, health, human rights,

    Among their outreach activities, the The Fellowship of Freethought organizes blood drives, collects food for local food banks, participates in holiday toy drives for needy children, and collects donations for deployed soldiers.

    The International Humanist and Ethical Union (IHEU) is a union which includes more than a hundred atheist, secular and freethought organizations from 40 different countries around the world. IEHU fights for freedom of expression, human rights, and separation of church and state.

    I can go on if you like….. not to mention the individual contributors to charities who are openly atheist. Do the research, my friend, that’s all I ask.

  59. on 21 Jun 2010 at 2:06 am 59.Boz said …

    “I will wager that my time in this world has been for far more good than yours and perhaps many, many of the “good” christians you refer to”

    Really mate? You fancy yourself Mother Theresa do ya? I don’t brag on my good deeds so I will pass on your pissing contest.

    “When atheism offers as much good to the world as the many Christian based world help organizations, come back and make your charges.”

    Your lame effort only strengthens my stand. I could not even begin to post all good done by religious groups. A secular group doesn’t count for atheist. Sorry! Don’t waste space with these small groups. It is commendable but cannot compare with the funds, manpower and projects done by relgious groups. Just conceed the point.
    Hey, maybe you can claim the Red Cross. I had one atheist try to make that your organization.

    “I don’t know this Sam Harris guy from Adam Smith”

    Um, talking about moving goal post again. You atheist are always holding up some individual as a Christian example. Well, Sam Harris is yours. he represents atheism to America. Congratulations.

  60. on 21 Jun 2010 at 2:15 am 60.Boz said …

    “Remember, we do not go to atheist church on Sundays to get our weekly reminder of why we don’t believe in god.”

    Actually, many of you attend Unitarian churches. At least know your religion before embarking on its defense.

    Oh, for the record I already acknowledged the misdeeds done by religions. Are you attempting to disprove God with that one? Since atheist harp on this constantly, I thought it fair to point out your own. A little factoid for you, religious people are still people. They eat, sleep, cry, laugh and make mistakes. Sometimes they are even hypocrites! Why? because man is selfish, even the best of us.

  61. on 21 Jun 2010 at 3:58 am 61.Observer said …

    Yawn- Boz, you continue to make my points. ( I started a response to you, but what is the point? )

    Martin- Thank you for the christwire.org link. Is it really a satire? The Fixed Earth fellow is dead serious. I emailed him a couple years ago congratulating him on his website. After a few back and forths, he convinced me he was for real. He also has audio. Perhaps I am a bit too trusting.

    You have to register to get into the website which I am passing on, but I did google Pat Heinkel of christwire. It turned up an IM between him and a pretty vulgar webradio host. It is marvelous. I see they have gotten a ton of other attention. The barrier makes me wonder whether it is “real”. Of course, the login barrier would make a fake seem more real. Given though it seems they are obsessed with masturbation, and Commonwealth Anglo slang “pulling wire” is slang for masturbation, christwire seems an appropriate name for a satire site.

  62. on 21 Jun 2010 at 8:11 am 62.Severin said …

    53 Boz
    “In the last 100 years more murders have been brought about by communism.“

    Again?
    A few decades of communism in a few countries really left a lot of innocent victims behind.
    Nobody ever claimed communism was good.

    But to compare the evil brought by communism with evil all religions, including christianity, brought to human race, is unserious!

    I will ask only a few questions relating to recent history:
    Slavory in the USA (and other countries around the world) was supported by communists?
    Hitler was a communist?
    Massacres in Ruanda were caused by communists?
    War crimes Japan did in Asia (millions of bruttaly masacred innocent victims) are also deeds of communists?
    Turkey communists (???) mascred millions of Armenians at the beginning of 20th century?

    That was only a FEW examples from recent history. Shall I continue to crusade wars, Inquisition, ….down to the massive crimes god himself did, according to Bible.

    Please have in mind that christians, NOT atheists, voted for Hitler on legal and fair elections, AFTER they had oportunity to listen his speaches full of hate for a decade!
    Notice the FACT that at the time of Octobar revolution, when communists took power, there were NO atheists in Russia, except a few communists. RELIGIOUS (and illiterate, and poor) population ACCEPTED communism as the „paradise here and now“.
    They only CHANGED THEIR RELIGION, then turned back to it when saw what was really going on, but it was too late.
    Communist leaders, and Hitler, were monsters which had oportunity and luck to get power for a while.
    Christianiyt had power for 2 milleniums! Communist crimes are enormeous and sad, but uncomparable to what christianity did to human race.
    Not to forget other religions!

  63. on 21 Jun 2010 at 2:58 pm 63.Martin said …

    Boz, your overt agressiveness, is BORING me, so I will not be pulled into your little game any longer. Go post to someone who has the need for such nonsense. You claim much about NOTHING, and your tired rhetoric is nothing more than taking a statement, turning it over and over, to find a new angle, then trotting it back out. Tire and boring.

    The ONLY thing I’ll say is this. Atheists DO not go to church, unless they do so simply as a social aspect, nothing more. Stop trying to assign Christian values and suck to Atheists.

    Do I care about your inferences and name calling, NOPE… I have my beliefs, I have my evidence, and I assure you that your tired attempts at discrediting anyone are LAME. Ta ta

  64. on 21 Jun 2010 at 3:06 pm 64.Martin said …

    “Really mate? You fancy yourself Mother Theresa do ya? I don’t brag on my good deeds so I will pass on your pissing contest.”

    YOU have the audacity to talk about a pissing contest… I remind YOU that you attacked me, YOU made the comment, the accusation that atheists have no morals and do no good is YOUR comment. And, just for the record, I am NOT your MATE, not now, nor ever. I can’t imagine a single reason why I would want to be in the same room with you.

  65. on 21 Jun 2010 at 3:11 pm 65.Martin said …

    The argument that Communism is an ATHEIST government is ridiculous. What communism did was eliminate the competition from religion; religion had for nearly 2000 been the dominating influence over the masses, especially the ignorant masses. By eliminating religion they eliminated one of the strongest influences over the people of Russia.

    The number of people who were “eliminated” during the dark ages, when religion WAS the government, would make what happened in Russia look like a girl scout convention, please!

  66. on 21 Jun 2010 at 3:21 pm 66.Martin said …

    Am I the only person who finds the fact that nearly 90% of all scientists have little or no contact with religion and effectively see themselves as atheists, while the general population is the exact opposite, interesting?

    The percentage actually is higher for those scientists who deal in biological research, over those dealing with physical sciences. It’s pretty amazing that the Religious Right so fervently seeks out the few scientists who claim to be religious and then trots them out, like Flew and Collins.

    My purpose for this post is to point out that some people talk about trotting out those who prove our points, then have to contend with the fact that atheists trot out the greatest scientific minds of the 21st century, while religions trot out the likes of Jerry Falwell, Oral Roberts, and the like.

    On the whole Genome Project, and this Collins fellow, I hope folks understand that the co-founders of the project, Watson and Crick, are avowed atheists. The un-official genome project, which has proven to actually be more scientific because religion has been removed, is led by the venerable Venter.

  67. on 21 Jun 2010 at 4:22 pm 67.Mike said …

    Martin

    I am more an observer on this blog than a poster but your are an irritating sort. Don’t you need to go to a child’s blog and maybe find something to do? Seriously, this constant crying about being attacked is old and just childish. Some friendly advice, if you are so thin skinned, go elsewhere. You are as attacking and belittling as anyone here.

    Your 90% is also a bunch of BS. Anyone with half a brain knows it is a number impossible to come up with accurately and when we look at the great scientist of the past a great number were religious. I’m not religious but I do know history. Get over yourself. If you don’t like the religious, fine stay away from them and the conversations.

  68. on 21 Jun 2010 at 9:22 pm 68.Martin said …

    Again, I remind EVERYONE this is an ATHEIST website. I do not like the religious, and as long I they come to an atheist website, I will continue to express my opinion. If you don’t like what I post, stay off, don’t read, or simply go away. You have huge ones to insinuate that I should leave. HAHAHA.

    Further, a reasonable sample of both the US National Academy of Sciences AND the Fellows of the Royal Society, was taken. Of the 225 respondents, 213 labeled themselves as unbeleivers, and 12 labeled themselves as believers. Now, I’m not a mathematician, but those are just about 90/10… YOU FAIL.

    As for my being an irritating sort, MOST people who can defend their position, are thought irritating by at least some of the population. Happy that I irritate you, thank you for the compliment.

  69. on 21 Jun 2010 at 9:27 pm 69.Martin said …

    See mike, the more you faith-heads gang up on me, the more you validate EVERYTHING I say. If it didn’t bother you, what I say, you would not respond, and let’s face it, if you didn’t respond I would probably go away. So, my mission here is working, thank you.

    I LOVE PISSING OFF FAITH-HEADS.. and I refuse to apologize for it, faith-heads NEVER apologize for attacking atheists, so…….. oh well.

  70. on 21 Jun 2010 at 10:58 pm 70.Mike said …

    What is a faith-head Martin?

    If pissing off these “Faith-heads” is how you get your jollys go for it. You are not the first guy to live on a blog. Can we call you Pisser? I just point out how you constantly cry about so called personal attacks, etc that is just no there. Your childishness is not an attack, it is mere observation.

    It reminds me of the parents who watch their children play ball and how they always see how their child is getting jobbed. They whine and cry about what is not there. You are much like that.

    Good luck with your mission. I must say is says a much more about the kind of person you are than these “faith-heads” you are looking for. Anything like the cone-heads?

    BTW,this link debunks you poll of which you offer no support. I am a mathematician and this does not equal 90/10.

    http://pewforum.org/Science-and-Bioethics/Scientists-and-Belief.aspx

  71. on 22 Jun 2010 at 12:55 am 71.Biff said …

    “Of the 225 respondents, 213 labeled themselves as unbeleivers, and 12 labeled themselves as believers. Now, I’m not a mathematician, but those are just about 90/10… YOU FAIL.”

    Actually that is about 95/5 so you fail. After reading Mikes link above you fail there too.

    LOL, I can’t speak for all but Martins obvious anger doesn’t piss me off (I’m not sure I am a Faith-Head); I find it amusing.

    People do not look to scientist to answer if there is a God. They have nothing special over anyone else that allows them to determine if God exists. Science can only do so much to investigate the question. Watch “The wormhole” a great Discovery Channel show that investigates God form a variety of scientific views. It is pretty fascinating

  72. on 22 Jun 2010 at 3:58 am 72.Observer said …

    70 Mike the Mathematician last I checked, 215/235 was around, actually, exactly, 94 2/3 %. WTF are you talking about? Mathematics is a broad discipline, what would you be called by other mathematicians?

    Mike, it appears that Biff has got your back, and to my delight, in addition to his other deficiencies, he cannot perform 3rd grade math either. Now he is even divining the meaning of it all from the Discovery Channel. Perfect.

    The link you provide is pretty lame, your source is the religion backwater at the Pew Center? That is something. You click through to the original Pew Center study and it does not go into anything about religion like the article you cite. It is a blog, and who knows what tossers are writing on it. What is more, the source was the AAAS. Hell, even you could become a member of the AAAS for around a hundred bucks. Incidentally, it is loaded with lobbyists, many of whom are Republican filth.

    Martin is referring to the Royal Society and the National Academy. They are the real deal. They are the best and the brightest. Some of them are also quite old, as the appointment is for life, and probably losing it like poor old Flew did.

  73. on 22 Jun 2010 at 6:27 am 73.Severin said …

    72 Observer
    “70 Mike the Mathematician last I checked, 215/235 was around, actually, exactly, 94 2/3 %.”

    Check your math, Observer!
    94 2/3 % to the rest of 5 1/3% is approximately 95:5, or more precisely 94.66:5.33

    I am not talking reliability of data, only math.

  74. on 22 Jun 2010 at 6:35 am 74.Severin said …

    On the other hand, although I avoid to discuss situation in countries I do not live in, I agree that people are AFRAID to openly expose thier opinions about religion(s), being afraid of consequences.

    Consequences are not as dangerous as they were at times of Inquisition, but to say you are an atheist in the society in which BIG % of members believe in biblical BS and believe earth is 6000 years old, MIGHT be dangerous, if such people have power.

    Unfortunately, they HAVE power, and can influence your future, so I do not blame scientist or anyone else for hiding their real opinion.

  75. on 22 Jun 2010 at 11:00 am 75.Horatio said …

    Buster,

    Yawn, Observer your bore me. Wouldn’t about 95% be the equivalent of %94.66%? Learn basic math skills.

    Enough with you biased uneducated opinions. Pew Research is quite respected and the results actually mirrors studies done for DECADES and another performed at Ohio St. You lose, again. You are banished back to Mambia!

    Be gone!

  76. on 22 Jun 2010 at 12:38 pm 76.Observer said …

    Dear all- Where I come from, the symbol “/” is used for division. Hence, the 95/5 made no sense to me in the context. The notation I would be familiar with, and is standard in the English speaking world, is “95:5″, or “95 to 5 against ‘faeries in the skye’” .

    As for the actual number, 213/225, it is exactly 94 2/3%. This number is of infinite precision. What arithmetic am I supposed to check Severin?

    Again, Mike the Mathematician’s reference was off a blog on the Pew site, loosely referencing a survey of a AAAS sourced sample. Even the luminary Hor could swing a AAAS membership for a bit of spare change, so it is hard to know what they are doing. There could even be engineers in the mix. What Martin was referring to was members of the National Academy of Science, and the Royal Society. Those folks are the real deal, not lobbyists. Of course, those august societies are not immune to a few crackpots either.

  77. on 22 Jun 2010 at 5:15 pm 77.Severin said …

    “What arithmetic am I supposed to check Severin?”

    Sorry, I misunderstood something! My fault!

  78. on 22 Jun 2010 at 9:36 pm 78.Martin said …

    “People do not look to scientist to answer if there is a God.”

    No, Faith-Heads look to a flawed bible, the likes of Jerry Falwell and Oral Roberts, and “faith” to find god. No thanks, I’ll stick to science for my understanding of the natural universe, thank you.

    It’s funny when people say something I say doesn’t piss them off, then they attack me. I am having the time of my life, thank you to all, both who agree with me and those of you who don’t, you guys really make me laugh.

  79. on 22 Jun 2010 at 9:43 pm 79.Martin said …

    Horatio,

    You do know that many, many of the studies done by Christians are biased, right? How can they not be, as one Christian said to me once, “Even if you find positive proof that there is NO god, I will not believe it, I will retain my faith because it comforts me to believe.”

    enough said

  80. on 22 Jun 2010 at 9:49 pm 80.martin said …

    Observer,

    When I see a link from Pisser, I’ll consider the source. I happen to know Pew is very reputable even if the numbers don’t come out to how you would like. Don’t become a pisser on me, membership has privileges and it in no means demeans the work.

  81. on 22 Jun 2010 at 9:50 pm 81.Mike said …

    Oops, that was Mike above not Pisser. My Fault.

  82. on 22 Jun 2010 at 10:30 pm 82.Martin said …

    http://pewforum.org/Science-and-Bioethics/Scientists-and-Belief.aspx

    Mike, Mike, Mike, YOU dare cite a Religous web-site as your PROOF. You are sooo funny. Pew Forum? Really? That’s it??? Wow, cutting deep, man.

    I am quoting from a study done by Elizabeth Cornwell and Michael Stirrat, who used a Likert-type seven-point scale. As a math guy, surely you are aware of this methodology. Just with the Fellows of the Royal Society; only 3.3 percent of the Fellows actually chose the statement that there is definately a personal god; while 78.8 indicated on the other end of the scale that there was NO evidence for belief in a god. The rest of the numbers added up the 95 – 5 ratio of non-believers to believers. I didn’t do the study, I only saw the results, but I am fairly confident in the results.

    Just as I am confident in the Larson and Witham study from 1998 in which only 7 percent of those polled in the National Academy of Science indicated that there was a belief in a personal god.

    Now, don’t get me started on the recent national study done on the effectiveness of prayer, that was done by a Religious Group, which showed that prayer does NOTHING for people who are sick, but in fact, found that the control group who KNEW they were being prayed for actually had MORE complications than those who did not know they were being prayed for and those who were not being prayed for. It was a double-blind study, you know about double-blind studies don’t you Mike.?

  83. on 22 Jun 2010 at 10:39 pm 83.Martin said …

    Since some of you like the WikiAnswers site, here is a link for you Mike…

    http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Approximately_what_percentage_of_recognized_scientists_DO_NOT_believe_in_Creation

    Happy Now???

    That is not where I first learned of the two studies, mind you, I actually first heard of them prior to their publication during a conversation with some of my colleagues at the University of South Carolina, where I was a member of the faculty for nearly 23 years.

  84. on 22 Jun 2010 at 10:44 pm 84.Martin said …

    Hey Mike, you may call me whatever you like, I do find if rather flattering that you used MY name. Careful there, Sport, someone might think you had a Freud moment.

    You do know that posting under someone else’s name in an attempt to discredit them is just, well, typical, for a child. Good move there, slick.

    Of course the more you use a name with a negative connotation, the more simple minded you appear, the more obvious it is for people to discredit you, and the more you prove my against those of you with faith. Smile, and peace. Keep up the excellent work.

  85. on 22 Jun 2010 at 10:52 pm 85.Martin said …

    You know Mike, for an observer, you sure have a lot to say.. maybe you should sit in the back of the class and keep quiet while the big boys talk among themselves about things with REAL significance, not the Pew site and the Discovery Channel. What’s next Disney and the History International Channel? Or, perhaps the Weather Channel will run a special on “god in the hurricane.”

  86. on 22 Jun 2010 at 10:56 pm 86.Martin said …

    I’ll be away for a couple of days, so you Faith-Heads have fun while I am away. I actually have to present a real research paper at Syracuse University on Thursday. Thanks to those who allow logic to pierce the fog of religion, and see the real light. Keep up the fight. As Richard Dawkins said to me recently, “the reason we do what we do, is because so many in America are afraid to admit that they are atheist. And, while organizing atheists is difficult, mainly because they are so independent in thought and reason, imagine the noise that atheists could make if they just spoke in one voice.”

  87. on 22 Jun 2010 at 10:58 pm 87.Martin said …

    “Don’t become a pisser on me, membership has privileges and it in no means demeans the work.”

    Isn’t that quote from a credit card company?

  88. on 23 Jun 2010 at 1:27 am 88.Horatio said …

    Martin never seen anyone post so much and say so little.

    Still no data for your claimed percentages, eh? figures. You did claim wiki was not allowed, right? 1998!!!

    Please come back, the funny is intoxicating!

  89. on 23 Jun 2010 at 1:27 am 89.Observer said …

    Martin- Sadly your prolific contributions to this blog come at the expense of the distinction I was trying to make between the Pew blog in Mike the Mathematician’s link, and the click through from the blog to the actual study report, which did not directly cite the results in the blog.

    I did not dismiss anything from Pew out of hand. The Pew Forum on Religion has a pro-religion bias. Check-out Luis E. Lugo. What is more, they have been supporting, and now propagating the “faith-based initiatives” undermining civil social programs and receiving indirect government funding. Since the 1980s, the AAAS has become increasingly more accommodating to the new plutocracy via coziness with the K Street initiative mob. One needs to always be mindful of one’s sources.

  90. on 23 Jun 2010 at 1:29 am 90.Observer said …

    Hor- Quit being the buffoon tool, and check out the citations/sources.

    Mike the Mathematician- What would your fellow mathematicians call you?

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