Feed on Posts or Comments 29 May 2017

Christianity Thomas on 08 Jun 2010 12:51 am

Thank God – The coming evangelical collapse

Let us hope this is true:

The coming evangelical collapse

We are on the verge – within 10 years – of a major collapse of evangelical Christianity. This breakdown will follow the deterioration of the mainline Protestant world and it will fundamentally alter the religious and cultural environment in the West.

Within two generations, evangelicalism will be a house deserted of half its occupants. (Between 25 and 35 percent of Americans today are Evangelicals.) In the “Protestant” 20th century, Evangelicals flourished. But they will soon be living in a very secular and religiously antagonistic 21st century.

This collapse will herald the arrival of an anti-Christian chapter of the post-Christian West. Intolerance of Christianity will rise to levels many of us have not believed possible in our lifetimes, and public policy will become hostile toward evangelical Christianity, seeing it as the opponent of the common good.

104 Responses to “Thank God – The coming evangelical collapse”

  1. on 08 Jun 2010 at 4:43 pm 1.Observer said …

    Michael Spencer was an interesting fellow. After reading this piece, I am not any more convinced evangelicalism will collapse around its own vacuity and idiocy than McDonald’s will collapse around the analogous delectability and nutritional value of its menu. I do believe he correctly forecasts the persistence and likely growth of the jabbering-pissing-in-the-aisles Christians I cherish, as well as the horrifying growth of the greatest enemy of human progress to date, the Roman Catholic Church. (Of course, the new crop of priests seem to be taking up the banner of the 70s-mid80s Latin American rank-and-file clergy so this could be a welcome turn of events.)

    What is most interesting is how Spencer never could reconcile his schizophrenic world-view: Self-described Christian, and right-wing Libertarian. Ultimately, this must be attributed to the deeply flawed education he received in the intellectual sewers, that is Southern Baptist Seminaries, where he studied.

  2. on 09 Jun 2010 at 6:38 pm 2.Horatio said …

    Buster is back and displaying more hatred and anger. The BP must be up!
    And he once again whalers in the sewers of his various ad hominem fallacies. None worth responding to I might add.

    Evangelicals as a group of denominations may be declining I do agree. However, more individuals would rather be part of churches that do not tie into the denominational arms thus the growth in community churches and non-denominational churches. This is a trend that will see more growth in the coming years.

  3. on 09 Jun 2010 at 6:44 pm 3.Observer said …

    HOR- “The BP must be up!” What?

    Just providing a bit of clearheaded perspective on a wasted life.

  4. on 10 Jun 2010 at 1:48 pm 4.GODS HELPER48561 said …

    god is great everything he has done and will do is great so before you go make up a website bout 50 resons why god is fake think again cuz ur lucky that god loves otherwise ud be struck down by lightning rite when you born so to the man or women who created this website keep in mind that I’m 13 and ready to fight for my religion and I’ll be pposting till you block me and don’t worry I’ll spread good word bout ur site to many christians hail the almighty god he will over power evil and throw you down like rain from the sky during a vast hurricane hitting ur direction and y not believe I mean you already read the bible to know all of this right or are you a cheap phony who just hates religion and feeds on the facts around you bout god and uses it against him and why havnt you wiped that mud out of ur eyes to see that god is rite in front of you but he loves you to much to turn visiable cuz he is so perfect so great and how he is so unsinfull and so great that if you saw him ud be on your knees praying for forrgiveness as you pass away from looking at his perfect images why ur eyes burn to hell cuz you can’t see the light god wants you to go near and how ur to far so owner of this site hope you see this cuz you need a change of thought then ul see that he’s there and we need to get there but it’s cuz unbelivers like you that push us away from it and at least try to pray to god but mean it with full heart cuz if you don’t well don’t expect an awnser and you probly never do this but one thing I always know is it’s never to hard to try cuz you might never get another chance and I fell uncomfertable now on this website but I’ll be back even if you block me there’s many ways to differrent internet connections you possed non believers

  5. on 10 Jun 2010 at 3:41 pm 5.MrQ said …

    Wow,
    Looks like a Jesus Boot Camp graduate is posting their deep thoughts. Don’t worry god’s lil’ helper, I doubt anyone will block your missives on this site. Maybe you’ll convert a few of the unwashed infidel heathens with your infallible logic and wisdom.

  6. on 10 Jun 2010 at 8:43 pm 6.Marcus said …

    godsleper48561

    Do you think god might be able to help you with punctuation? And maybe spelling? Next time you go to church why not pray that he gives you an instant, basic grasp of the English language. Being all-powerful, I’m sure he wouldn’t mind obliging. You deluded fuckwit.

  7. on 17 Jun 2010 at 2:07 pm 7.Martin said …

    Gods Helper, I see that you have the ability to write a lot of words down. Your rant makes as much sense as this sentence.

    Musta beeta loopy dante until the day when argol beesta goes to nada doopy

    Lot of words, NO sense. Without reason and thought, nothing you write will be taken seriously. Sorry.

  8. on 17 Jun 2010 at 2:09 pm 8.Martin said …

    If any of you want to really see the virulence that “Christians” can spew, go to Richard Dawkins’ site and read some of the letters people have written to him. WOW is all I could say. The language and the structure is aweful. For a good laugh, please go there.

  9. on 17 Jun 2010 at 2:21 pm 9.Horatio said …

    Martin & Q

    GH is not a real christian, he is a troll who post here to make the Christians look bad. It is so obvious every time he posts. I use to think Severin was the same animal. You may not know that so I cut you some slack.

    As for angry Christians, go to any religious site, AIG, Ankerberg, Focus on the family and check out the angry rants of the atheist. They are nastier and meaner.

    Marcus.

    Will you be correcting Severin’s grammar now? Watch out, Mr Q doesn’t approve. Mr Q. where are you for the rescue?

  10. on 20 Jun 2010 at 3:16 am 10.Believer said …

    Why don’t you all take a look at your hands and try to explain why your fingerprints are unlike anyone else in the world. Explain this phenomenon? There are so many reasons to believe in God rather than not. How foolish to think the Creator of the universe owes you more proof than what is already around you.

    God created all things and is all knowing unlike you so deal with your lack of understanding. Does this make some sense? You cannot understand His existance and therefore faith must be put into action on your part. I suggest you start believing! What do you have to lose here? A life that is empty and void filled with arguments just because you don’t understand in your limited mind. Or a life worth believing in something that you can’t see and is the source of all things.

  11. on 20 Jun 2010 at 9:43 am 11.Severin said …

    9 Horatio
    “I use to think Severin was the same animal.”

    Are you, microbe, able to “use to think”? I never realized microbes have a proper organ for that.

    “Will you be correcting Severin’s grammar now?”
    I excused for my bad English many times, and explained I was self-thaught, and learnt some English relatively recently, in my 50, by myself.
    As I can see, everybody understands what I say in spite of that fact. I do hope it is not on the level of “Me Tarzan you Jane”.

    GH is probably an American, and it is right to criticise HIS English (not from me, of course, but I do not understand him more than 50%).
    I would be terrified if I wrote or spoke MY language that way – something like slang, or what?

  12. on 20 Jun 2010 at 3:51 pm 12.Martin said …

    “I suggest you start believing! What do you have to lose here?”

    First two thoughts. Did you know that ALL microprocessors possess their very own “fingerprint” which happens to occur by chance, not design. Is this an argument that mankind is now god, since we create the microchips? Or, perhaps not. Using the human body as an argument for the existence of god is a shaky argument at best. Our DNA is prone to faults, our vision is among the poorest of all living creatures, we are fairly weak by most animal standards, our teeth do not replicate, nor do our limbs, and while being bipedal has it’s advantages, it has created an aweful design for giving birth. Humans have the greatest dificulty giving birth of any species in the animal kingdom, and even with our medical advances, the human animal STILL has one of the highest mortality rates for both its young and its females, at the time of birth.

    One would think that if we are part of “intelligent” design, our designer would have more pride in his work that the human body. I know if I designed a product for the marketplace with as many flaws as the human body has, there would be a recall by now. Surely, I would be working on upgrades to my design by now.

    Now, the argument that I quoted above, is fraught with trouble. Why not believe, what do I have to lose? I’ll tell you, if I were to suddenly revert to the totalitarian Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or any number of other religions, I would be giving up an aweful LOT. For starters, I would lose my mind, my true free will, and my self-respect. I’m sure there are greater arguments from men who are far more intelligent than I am, but that is my reason.

  13. on 20 Jun 2010 at 3:59 pm 13.Martin said …

    Horatio, I agree that atheists can be quite demonstrative in their language, BUT, there is ONE huge difference. Atheists do not claim to follow a god who teaches that this kind of behavior is wrong. I was a Christian for decades, and if I had used that language in talking about my belief system, I would have been ashamed. Now, don’t get me wrong, I do not condone that language from anyone for any reason, except perhaps in a heated battle. But, certainly NEVER from a Christian attempting to protect his religious belief system.

    So, to sum it up, I agree with you there are bad folks all around. As to attempting to correct anyone’s grammar, I usually do not, unless it is totally absurd. Severin, I knew was not from the US the first time I read a post from him. And, IF he attempted to write a five paragraph rant against relgion without punctuation, I would indeed be critical of it, yes.

  14. on 20 Jun 2010 at 4:28 pm 14.Martin said …

    Believer, I posted this statement on another blog, but thought it was good enough to post here as well. So it is attributed to me.

    “I have a confession, I do believe that we have a creator, just not a deity. I believe that we were created over the course of time, by forces that are natural not supernatural. That’s all I’m saying. I do not believe that our creator is a sentient being, but is the process from billions of years of combinations of natural events.

    This explaination of how I came into being does not worry me or make my existence any less phenomenal or precious. I saw the birth of two children and a grandson, and I am in awe of nature and all that beauty has to offer. I do not need to assign this to a being greater than myself, I do not need a god or a father figure. I am a moral being because I chose to be, not because of fear of punishment or the reward of an afterlife. To me, LIFE is my reward, the love I have for my wife and children, for my planet, for my fellow man, for the beauty of everything, simply is enough for me.”

    I am confused as to why the above statement threatens so many Christians. It is as if you are offended in some way that I reject your faith, and embrace my own view of the cosmos. I struggle every day with trying to understand this animosity that so many with faith seem to have toward me. Richard Dawkins, in his book “The God Delusion” explains it so well in his foreword when he says that atheists and theists somehow have been convinced that religion and faith deserves to be treated with kid gloves, with a level of politeness and kindness. I say that those of faith should return the same to those of us without faith. Then, and only then, can the debate be held on a common ground.

  15. on 20 Jun 2010 at 9:50 pm 15.state of ..? said …

    ” Atheists do not claim to follow a god who teaches that this kind of behavior is wrong. ”

    Martin, allow me to ask you.. do you think it is right to curse at a mere kid?, as Marcus did(if true that he is 13years of age). The act of a man, regardless of religion/belief system, is indeed barbaric.

  16. on 21 Jun 2010 at 12:11 am 16.Martin said …

    State of? I agree that there is not place for cursing a child, certainly not, but I was privy to the funeral of a 16 year old who was a homosexual and died of AIDS, and there were Christians outside the church with signs that claimed his death was an act of god, that he deserved to die…. I ask you, is this correct behavior for Christians? See, I see that as wrong because MY morals come from a sense of right and wrong based on common sense, NOT on some fallacious intepretation of a 2000 year old book.

  17. on 23 Jun 2010 at 6:35 pm 17.Andrew said …

    In physics there is no place for God as physics examines surrounding reality and God does not belong to it.

  18. on 24 Jun 2010 at 1:36 am 18.Biff said …

    “MY morals come from a sense of right and wrong based on common sense”

    So you would be Ok with EVERYONE using their own determination for morals? So if someone believes homosexuals are evil and immoral that would be OK then? Maybe that is THEIR common sense?

    Your system is flawed and badly

  19. on 25 Jun 2010 at 10:36 am 19.Severin said …

    18 Biff
    “Your system is flawed and badly”

    Don’t we have laws? And much better ones than any biblical law!
    Laws are not my or your system, they are a system accepted by majority, and everyone has to obey them
    .
    In the Bible, god says: “Thou shalt not kill”, but on the other place he orders people to kill other people, including their own sons and daughters, to masacre babies….
    Shall we obey THAT laws?
    HOW can biblical laws be relvant for us?
    WHAT moral rules can we find in the Bible?

    Example how the allmighty god sacrifices his own son to please HIMSELF?
    Is THAT the morals someone expects me to accept and to follow?

  20. on 25 Jun 2010 at 1:08 pm 20.Lou said …

    Yep, the Sharia law is common sense for many Muslims therefore it must be OK. Killing Jews was just common sense for the Nazis, therefore THAT was OK.

    I see in America they are arresting Christians for passing out Gospel pamphlets where Muslims congregate. The stealing of Constitutional rights when someone’s common sense dictates that it is OK is now acceptable.

    Situational ethics NEVER works.

  21. on 25 Jun 2010 at 4:42 pm 21.Observer said …

    Something for Lou, Biff, and other theists out there…

    http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/24/the-anosognosics-dilemma-somethings-wrong-but-youll-never-know-what-it-is-part-5/

    This may or not make sense to you. Likely, you will try to twist it so to turn it around to point at us folks really trying to get the answers to the real world.

  22. on 25 Jun 2010 at 5:37 pm 22.Severin said …

    20 Lou
    “Yep, the Sharia law is common sense for many Muslims therefore it must be OK.”

    1. I did not say it.
    2. What is the difference between sharia and biblical laws?

  23. on 25 Jun 2010 at 10:14 pm 23.Lou said …

    Yes biff, everyone is for common sense morality as long as everyone follows their morality. You are right it does not work. There must be the ultimate law giver or it becomes mass chaos. However, that is what some would want. Out politburo is insuring that no crisis goes wasted.

  24. on 26 Jun 2010 at 6:14 am 24.Severin said …

    23 Lou
    “There must be the ultimate law giver or it becomes mass chaos.”

    WHICH law? Elighten us!

  25. on 26 Jun 2010 at 6:37 am 25.Severin said …

    23 Lou
    “There must be the ultimate law giver or it becomes mass chaos.“

    Is god your ultimate „law giver“?
    Is it perhaps the biblical god (or Zeus or Allah?)?
    Is the Bible his „law“?
    Do we have to follow the Biblical laws not to get “mass chaos”?

    In that case we have to kill each woman we find non-virgin in the first night of marriage, by stoning her on her father’s treshold.
    In that case we have to stone each person working on holyday.
    We have to kill desobediant children.
    We are free to SELL our daughters to strangers, to overcome financial crisis.
    Etc, etc…

    WHAT is the difference between biblical laws and sharia laws?
    Why don’t you tell us, instead of writing empty unargumented claims?

  26. on 26 Jun 2010 at 4:08 pm 26.Biff said …

    Lou,

    You should read O’s link. Actually, for once it is quite good. It just goes to show how illogical the atheist beliefs really are. When an individual can see the obvious design in creation and still deny the creator it is fascinating. It keeps the whole cluelessness, self-deception and denial paradigm in tact as found in the NY Times Op-ed.

    To go with creation/creator you can add law/law-giver.

  27. on 26 Jun 2010 at 7:17 pm 27.Martin said …

    “It just goes to show how illogical the atheist beliefs really are. When an individual can see the obvious design in creation and still deny the creator it is fascinating. It keeps the whole cluelessness, self-deception and denial paradigm in tact as found in the NY Times Op-ed.”

    REALLY? There is design in creation? Where, name me one thing that shows design, beyond natural selection. Remember, natural selection is a four billion year process, potentially, so miniscule changes each thousand years, is possible.

    I await your answer… one example is all I ask.

  28. on 26 Jun 2010 at 7:20 pm 28.Martin said …

    So, what you folks are saying is that without god there is no morals? No laws?? Funny thing is that MOST of what is in the old testament is now considered, at the very least immoral, and in some cases completely illegal. So where did this ultimate lawgiver come from and what exactly did he/she give us??? Certainly NOT the laws of the old testament, and PLEASE don’t use the ten commandment argument, lame, sorry.

  29. on 26 Jun 2010 at 7:27 pm 29.Martin said …

    “MY morals come from a sense of right and wrong based on common sense”

    So you would be Ok with EVERYONE using their own determination for morals? So if someone believes homosexuals are evil and immoral that would be OK then? Maybe that is THEIR common sense?

    Your system is flawed and badly”

    Understand there is a BIG difference between MORAL and Laws. EVERYONE uses his or her own determination for morals, because morals can not be legislated. Morally, you are fine to think that homosexuals are immoral, that is a belief system, NOT a legal system.. So it’s fine if you want to think homosexuals are immoral, but is is fine too for homosexuals to think that you are an idiot and a fool. It’s called an opinion, and as long as you do not impede on another’s RIGHTS, you can have whatever morals YOU want. God did not give you those morals, more than likely you got them from your parents or your pastor. IF you want to call it common sense, then that’s your right.

    MY system is actually far less flawed than yours is. In my system, I make moral decisions based on what I see as right and wrong, what makes sense. YOU on the other hand make your MORAL decisions based on a belief system that comes from ancient times, and hasn’t been updated in 2000+ years ago. Not that is PROGRESS..NOT!

  30. on 26 Jun 2010 at 7:29 pm 30.Martin said …

    “Yes biff, everyone is for common sense morality as long as everyone follows their morality. You are right it does not work. There must be the ultimate law giver or it becomes mass chaos. However, that is what some would want. Out politburo is insuring that no crisis goes wasted.”

    Again, LOU, you like most believers, mistake the difference between moral laws and the legal system. MOST of what you are against, Morally, isn’t against the laws of the land. Atheists do not seek chaos, in fact most of us are pretty intelligent and scientific, and see the benefits in keeping chaos out of the equation of life. Wrong again, my friend.

  31. on 29 Nov 2010 at 10:41 pm 31.MYSELF said …

    Are humans not an evolving creature? Our minds change like the wind and weather, and we continue to create more grand things than we did the day before! So perhaps evangelism wil collapse. Who is to say? I really doubt any of us have the clairvoyance enough to say that for certain. The first one that has ESP has every right to yell at me about that one.

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  83. on 18 May 2017 at 3:00 am 83.The Messenger said …

    This article talks about how destructive and intolerant Christianity is, yet it completely ignores the fact that the destructiveness and intolerance of Atheism is far worse.

    I would like to make it clear that I am not placing blame on all atheists, I am simply proving that overall Judeo Christian religions have been more beneficial to human kind than atheism.

    In just one century Atheists managed to wipe out more people than any religious conflict in history, mostly with the governments that they founded. Here is a list of said governments and the death tolls:

    1. The Soviets Union: 1,053,829 people died in the Gulags, as well as 56 to 62 million more with 34 to 49 million directly linked to Stalin whose Atheism was basically his religion.

    2. The Third Reich: Over 11 million people died in the Holocaust, 6 million of them being Jews and the other 5 million consisting of Black people, Catholics (Claus von Stauffenberg, as well as countless priests, nuns, and lay men whom were caught trying to either hide Jews or kill Hitler.), free Masons, Homosexuals, Jehovah’s Witness members, and German citizens whom tried to rebel against Hitler and his fellow atheists.

    I could on for days and probally weeks about the massive death toll atheism has caused and is still causing, but there is something else I feel I should address first concerning Christians.

    1. Christians did not start the practice of slavery, many of us fought and millions gave their lives in order to bring an end to it. In fact the earliest Christians, known as the Church Fathers, spoke against slavery. For example, Augustine of Hippo spent a significant portion of his life as a bishop traveling far and wide preaching that slavery is a sin and should be opposed. And St Patrick Bishop of Ireland used Church money to free countless people throughout Ireland.

    2. Christians did not start the practice of Racism, but many of us such as the honored Martin Luther King Jr fought peacefully to bring and end to it, and many of us are still fighting today.

    3. Christians managed to wipe out the practice of human sacrifice and cannibalism throughout Europe as well as North and south America.

    Lastly I would like to point out that judging all Christians a one group is illogical due to the fact that their are many different types of Christians with many different ideas.

  84. on 18 May 2017 at 3:22 pm 84.freddies_dead said …

    83.The Messenger said …

    This article talks about how destructive and intolerant Christianity is, yet it completely ignores the fact that the destructiveness and intolerance of Atheism is far worse.

    To what destructiveness and intolerance is messy referring? Atheism is the rejection of theistic belief. There isn’t any dogma to be destructive or intolerant with.

    I would like to make it clear that I am not placing blame on all atheists, I am simply proving that overall Judeo Christian religions have been more beneficial to human kind than atheism.

    Just how is messy quantifying this let alone proving it?

    In just one century Atheists managed to wipe out more people than any religious conflict in history, mostly with the governments that they founded. Here is a list of said governments and the death tolls:

    I’m just going to point out right now that messy has never and will never demonstrate how atheism is actually the driver behind the atrocities he likes to lay at atheism’s door. The people who died weren’t killed in the name of atheism, but for a variety of other ideological and political reasons, but this is inconvenient to messy’s argument so he ignores it at all costs.

    1. The Soviets Union: 1,053,829 people died in the Gulags, as well as 56 to 62 million more with 34 to 49 million directly linked to Stalin whose Atheism was basically his religion.

    Stalin saw himself as God. He killed in the name of the absolute power of Communism. Yes communism is atheistic, but it isn’t atheism that drives communists to kill.

    2. The Third Reich: Over 11 million people died in the Holocaust, 6 million of them being Jews and the other 5 million consisting of Black people, Catholics (Claus von Stauffenberg, as well as countless priests, nuns, and lay men whom were caught trying to either hide Jews or kill Hitler.), free Masons, Homosexuals, Jehovah’s Witness members, and German citizens whom tried to rebel against Hitler and his fellow atheists.

    Quite simply Hitler wasn’t an atheist, neither was the Third Reich or the vast majority of Germans who carried out Hitler’s orders. Hitler himself was a Catholic who used religion to justify his actions.

    I could on for days and probally weeks about the massive death toll atheism has caused and is still causing,

    Except messy would need to first demonstrate that atheism was to blame, something they’ve never managed to do.

    but there is something else I feel I should address first concerning Christians.

    1. Christians did not start the practice of slavery,

    No, they just incorporated it into their culture it and codified it in the Bible.

    many of us fought and millions gave their lives in order to bring an end to it.

    Many people of other faiths and indeed no faith did the same, please check your Christian exceptionalism at the door.

    In fact the earliest Christians, known as the Church Fathers, spoke against slavery.

    In direct contradiction of the Christian Gods instructions regarding the treatment of slaves, lol? No they didn’t.

    For example, Augustine of Hippo spent a significant portion of his life as a bishop traveling far and wide preaching that slavery is a sin and should be opposed.

    Not quite correct. Augustine felt that slavery was inevitable – the product of sin, not a sin in and of itself. “The prime cause, then, of slavery is sin, which brings man under the dominion of his fellow — that which does not happen save by the judgment of God, with whom is no unrighteousness, and who knows how to award fit punishments to every variety of offence.”
    St Augustine, The City of God, 19:15

    And St Patrick Bishop of Ireland used Church money to free countless people throughout Ireland.

    This is probably bullshit. Research at Cambridge by Dr. Roy Flechner casts doubt on the traditional story of St. Patrick
    being taken as a slave to Ireland as a teenager before escaping back to Britain www dot cam dot ac dot uk slash research slash news slash was-st-patrick-a-slave-trading-roman-official-who-fled-to-ireland

    “According to Flechner, once Patrick was faced with the obligation to become a Decurion following the void left by his father, he preferred to emigrate overseas. Ireland would have been a natural choice, given its proximity and links with western Britain.

    Patrick’s writings reveal that his contemporaries accused him of going to Ireland for financial gain. By his own account, he was a wealthy man when he returned to Ireland after his alleged escape from captivity. Although he never says what his wealth consisted of, it must have been movable wealth of a kind that he could transport across the Irish sea to Ireland.

    Ireland did not have a monetary economy at this early stage, so exchanging his family land in Britain for money would have been pointless. Slaves, however, were a highly valued commodity and Patrick mentions that his family owned slaves, which was common for aristocratic families in Britain at this time.

    Slaves were also relatively easy to transport, and in the historical context it makes sense that Patrick would have converted his family wealth to slaves or taken the family slaves with him…

    … It may seem strange that a Christian cleric of Patrick’s stature would own slaves, but in late antiquity and the early middle ages the church was a major slave owner – we have early medieval Irish legal texts that regulate the ownership of slaves by the church, says Flechner.

    The only objections to slavery known in this period and the early middle ages were cases in which Christian slaves were owned by non-Christian masters. Patrick is known to have attempted to free enslaved captives, but these were Christians whom Patrick had converted himself, and who were sold to Pictish masters.

    The traditional story that Patrick was kidnapped from Britain, forced to work as a slave, but managed to escape and reclaim his status, is likely to be fiction: the only way out of slavery in this period was to be released by manumission or redeemed, and Patrick never says he was redeemed. The traditional legend was instigated by Patrick himself in the texts he wrote, because this is how he wanted to be remembered.”

    2. Christians did not start the practice of Racism,

    No, it was just something else they adopted and incorporated into Christianity from earlier religions.

    but many of us such as the honored Martin Luther King Jr fought peacefully to bring and end to it, and many of us are still fighting today.

    Once again messy tries to claim Christian exceptionalism, as if people of other religions and no religion haven’t also fought for equality.

    3. Christians managed to wipe out the practice of human sacrifice and cannibalism throughout Europe as well as North and south America.

    Except for the Christian Crusaders who ate the flesh of Muslim soldiers after the seige and capture of Ma’arra (there were multiple, independent, first hand accounts of that little party). Not to mention the thriving trade in medicinal cannablism which lasted long after the Christianisation of Europe. As usual the facts disagree with messy’s grandiose claims.

    Lastly I would like to point out that judging all Christians a one group is illogical due to the fact that their are many different types of Christians with many different ideas.

    To be fair I’m not just judging *all Christians* as a group. I lump all of the other irrational theists in there too. Any illogical looney who insists that their God is real and not just a product of their imagination. In fact the fact that there are so many different brands of Christians is just more evidence that the Christian god does not exist. You’d think an all knowing, all powerful god would have no problem presenting itself in such a way that everyone gets the exact same message with no room for different interpretations, but apparently not. Instead you get all these different versions of the Christian god who just happen to act in just the way those doing the interpreting imagine He would behave.

  85. on 18 May 2017 at 11:23 pm 85.Johnny Theriault said …

    You are my breathing in, I own few web logs and rarely run out from post :). “He who controls the past commands the future. He who commands the future conquers the past.” by George Orwell.

  86. on 19 May 2017 at 1:21 am 86.The Messenger said …

    Part 1 of my response to Fred.

    “To what destructiveness and intolerance is messy referring? Atheism is the rejection of theistic belief. There isn’t any dogma to be destructive or intolerant with.”

    The destructiveness and intolerance that I was referring to was listed partially in the next paragraphs when I discussed the atrocities that atheists committed under atheistic governments.

    And further more I would like to make it clear that atheism does have one dogma, which is as you have stated the “rejection of theistic belief”.

    Although that dogma does not teach anyone to be “destructive or intolerant” it almost always leads to it. The reason that Atheism causes those things to happen is because when you remove “belief in GOD” that leads people to believe in a new GOD, which is themselves.

    As you have stated in your own words that “Stalin saw himself as God” and that “He killed in the name of the absolute power of Communism”. Because Stalin saw himself as GOD he believed that he and he alone was the sole authority and ultimate authority on morality, and therefore saw nothing wrong with killing all of the people that I listed: The Soviets Union: 1,053,829 people died in the Gulags, as well as 56 to 62 million more with 34 to 49 million directly linked to Stalin.

    The point I am trying to make is that in the absence of GOD man makes himself into GOD, and this happens to many Atheists, especially those with a large amount of political power, as we have seen in the twentieth century and we continue to see in this century.
    Here is a list of some the Atheists that decided to become GODs because they didn’t believe that there was a GOD, and when they did this innocent people suffered the consequences.
    1. Stalin, and every other dictator that Soviet Russia has ever had.
    2. Vladimir Lenin.
    3. Mussolini.
    4. Fidel Castro.
    5. Hitler.
    6. Joseph Goebbels
    7. Kim Jong-un and every other member of his family.
    8. Tojo.
    9. Mao Zedong.
    10. Mao Zedong.
    11. Hua Guofeng.
    12. Hu Yaobang.
    “Quite simply Hitler wasn’t an atheist, neither was the Third Reich or the vast majority of Germans who carried out Hitler’s orders. Hitler himself was a Catholic who used religion to justify his actions.”
    First and foremost, Hitler was not a catholic in his adult life. Although he was raised as a catholic he completely abandoned the church and the religion when he joined the Nazi party. As evidence that Hitler was not a catholic, I will list many of the crimes that Hitler committed against Catholics, as well as documented evidence that pope pius xii himself was involved with the German resistance (which was lead and run by Christians, including the catholic Claus von Stauffenberg and his brother whom gave their lives trying to kill the Hitler) which tried multiple times to kill Hitler.
    1. The destruction of catholic churches throughout Europe, but mainly in Poland.
    Ian Kershaw; Hitler a Biography; 2008 p.661.
    2. The murder of thousands of priests, including those whom were sent to concentration camps.
    Ian Kershaw; Hitler a Biography; 2008 p.661.
    3. The torture and murder of Catholic Priest Antoni Zawistowski, along with over 2,720 other members of catholic clergy in Dachau, the first Nazi concentration camp.
    Encyclopædia Britannica: Dachau, by Michael Berenbaum.
    Paul Berben; Dachau: The Official History 1933-1945.
    The Priests of Dachau by Ronald Rychlak.
    4. According to SS General Karl Wolff, while he was testifying at the Nuremberg Trials, stated that he was ordered, in person by Hitler, to kidnap the pope.
    John Hooper. 2005, January 17. “Hitler plot to kidnap the pope revealed”. The Guardian.
    5. Colonel Erwin von Lahousen, during the Nuremberg Trials, stated under oath that the Reich Main Security Office had been ordered by Hitler to make a plot to punish the Italian people by kidnapping the Pope and killing him.
    Zenit. June 16, 2009. “More Proof of Hitler’s Plot to Kill Pius XII Archived April 21, 2010, at the Wayback Machine.”.

    In conclusion, Hitler was not a catholic when he was leading Germany. He was a deadly enemy of all Catholics, including the foundation of the Catholic Church its self, the office of the Pope.

  87. on 19 May 2017 at 3:57 am 87.The Messenger said …

    Part 2 of my response to Fred. There will be a part 3.

    “Quite simply Hitler wasn’t an atheist, neither was the Third Reich or the vast majority of Germans who carried out Hitler’s orders. “
    Unless you can show actual documented proof that your “vast majority” of Hitler followers kept their faith while following him then I can’t believe your claim.
    On the other hand am able to prove that the majority of those who were in the German resistance were Christian, including their honored leader Claus von Stauffenberg.

    Also there is recorded evidence of correspondence and cooperation between the Pope and the German resistance. The communications between one another were made possible the devote catholic Josef Müller.

    “In direct contradiction of the Christian Gods instructions regarding the treatment of slaves, lol? No they didn’t.”

    Actually they did, and also I can tell that you are referring to the Old Testament laws which were done away with in the New Testament. Also I am not sure where you are getting your interpretation of scripture from, as I have been in the catholic church my entire life and have never heard a single member of the clergy ever support the practice of slavery.
    Furthermore, I would like to point out that even the Orthodox Jews, whom still follow the Old Testament books which you are referencing from, do not own any slaves in today’s world.

    “Not quite correct. Augustine felt that slavery was inevitable – the product of sin, not a sin in and of itself. “The prime cause, then, of slavery is sin, which brings man under the dominion of his fellow — that which does not happen save by the judgment of God, with whom is no unrighteousness, and who knows how to award fit punishments to every variety of offence.””
    “St Augustine, The City of God, 19:15”

    This quote that you have referenced does not contain a denial of the fact that slavery is sin. It does however demonstrate that Augustine, as I stated, “opposed slavery”.
    Furthermore, it is historical fact that St. Augustine led many of the clergy members under his direct authority to free slaves “as an act of piety”.
    Augustine, “Of the Work of Monks”, p. 25, Vol. 3, Nicene & Post-Nicene Fathers, Eerdman’s, Reprinted 1986.
    Also Augustine wrote a very passionate letter to the Emperor of Hippo, urging him to make laws that would stop the selling of slaves, and he put a specific emphasis on stopping the selling of children.
    The Saints, Pauline Books & Media, Daughters of St. Paul, Editions du Signe (1998), p. 72.

    “This is probably bullshit. Research at Cambridge by Dr. Roy Flechner casts doubt on the traditional story of St. Patrick being taken as a slave to Ireland as a teenager before escaping back to Britain.”

    I noticed that you used the words “probably” and “doubt” to describe your so called PROOF that “the traditional story of St. Patrick” “is bullshit”. This shows that you lack certainty and confidence, as does “Dr. Roy Flechner”, in your belief that “the traditional story of St. Patrick” is false.
    Also I wonder how “Dr. Roy Flechner” calculated that “the traditional story of St. Patrick” is “probably” wrong.
    Also you only list one scholar, “Dr. Roy Flechner”, that supports your position, while I can do the same thing. Lets agree that there are scholars that believe in the “the traditional story of St. Patrick”, and there are those who do not. Unless we can get them all, or at least an overwhelming majority, to agree to one side of this issue, the listing of scholars becomes pointless because for every scholar that speaks in favor of your belief I can list another that sides with my beilief.

    “According to Flechner, once Patrick was faced with the obligation to become a Decurion following the void left by his father, he preferred to emigrate overseas. Ireland would have been a natural choice, given its proximity and links with western Britain.”

    This is false due the fact that that Patrick did not return to Ireland until he was given the position of bishop. Also Ireland had few links between Britain due to the massive amount of cultural differences, as well as the fact that Ireland was still populated mostly by people who practiced a form of paganism that was views as so vile that the roman pagans had made it illegal to practice in Britain.

    “The traditional story that Patrick was kidnapped from Britain, forced to work as a slave, but managed to escape and reclaim his status, is likely to be fiction: the only way out of slavery in this period was to be released by manumission or redeemed, and Patrick never says he was redeemed. The traditional legend was instigated by Patrick himself in the texts he wrote, because this is how he wanted to be remembered.””

    Once again you have displayed a significant amount of doubt in your own agruement by stating that “The traditional story” “is likely to be fiction”. By doing that you have once again shown your own uncertainty.
    First I would like to know if this is your own determination or is this what “Dr. Roy Flechner” determined.
    Also instead of stating facts, you provided your own personal and certainly false assumption that “Patrick himself in the texts he wrote, because this is how he wanted to be remembered.”.
    Furthermore you stated that the only way out of slavery in this period “was to be released by manumission or redeemed”, yet you overlook the third and most obvious way of being freed, which is escaping, which is exactly what Patrick did.
    “Confession of St. Patrick, Part 17”. Christian Classics Ethereal Library at Calvin College. Retrieved 11 March 2010.

    “Ireland did not have a monetary economy at this early stage, so exchanging his family land in Britain for money would have been pointless. Slaves, however, were a highly valued commodity and Patrick mentions that his family owned slaves, which was common for aristocratic families in Britain at this time.”

    Notice that you did not state that Patrick owned slaves, you stated that “his family owned slaves”. Also it would have been completely impossible for Patrick to use any of his “money”, much less the “money that his family” had, due to the fact that he was cut off from them when he was kidnapped in his youth and forced into slavery overseas.
    “Confession of St Patrick” written by St Patrick himself, which is a firsthand account written by the Bishop himself.

    “No, it was just something else they adopted and incorporated into Christianity from earlier religions.”
    Once again you make the mistake of speaking about Christianity as if it were one united belief system, when in reality there are many different types of Christianity, many of which are false.
    If you are going to criticize individual Christians for racism then go ahead, in fact I would happily help you. But if you are going to accuse Christianity, as a whole, of being a racist belief system then you must prove that each and every one of the thousands of denominations that exist are all teaching racism.
    Generalizing so many different belief systems is not logical, because they all teach different things.

  88. on 19 May 2017 at 2:42 pm 88.The Messenger said …

    This is the third and final installment of my response to Fred.

    “To what destructiveness and intolerance is messy referring? Atheism is the rejection of theistic belief. There isn’t any dogma to be destructive or intolerant with.”

    The destructiveness and intolerance that I was referring to was listed partially in the next paragraphs, when I discussed the atrocities that atheists committed under atheistic governments.

    And further more I would like to make it clear that atheism does have one dogma, which is as you have stated the “rejection of theistic belief”.

    Although that dogma does not teach anyone to be “destructive or intolerant” it almost always leads to it. The reason that Atheism causes those things to happen is because when you remove “belief in GOD” that leads people to believe in a new GOD, which is themselves.

    As you have stated in your own words that “Stalin saw himself as God” and that “He killed in the name of the absolute power of Communism”. Because Stalin saw himself as GOD he believed that he and he alone was the sole authority and ultimate authority on morality, and therefore saw nothing wrong with killing all of the people that I listed: The Soviets Union: 1,053,829 people died in the Gulags, as well as 56 to 62 million more with 34 to 49 million directly linked to Stalin.

    The point I am trying to make is that in the absence of GOD man makes himself into GOD, and this happens to many Atheists, especially those with a large amount of political power, as we have seen in the twentieth century and we continue to see in this century.
    Here is a list of some the Atheists that decided to become GODs because they didn’t believe that there was a GOD, and when they did this innocent people suffered the consequences.
    1. Stalin, and every other dictator that Soviet Russia has ever had.
    2. Vladimir Lenin.
    3. Mussolini.
    4. Fidel Castro.
    5. Hitler.
    6. Joseph Goebbels
    7. Kim Jong-un and every other member of his family.
    8. Tojo.
    9. Mao Zedong.
    10. Mao Zedong.
    11. Hua Guofeng.
    12. Hu Yaobang.
    “Quite simply Hitler wasn’t an atheist, neither was the Third Reich or the vast majority of Germans who carried out Hitler’s orders. Hitler himself was a Catholic who used religion to justify his actions.”
    First and foremost, Hitler was not a catholic in his adult life. Although he was raised as a catholic he completely abandoned the church and the religion when he joined the Nazi party. As evidence that Hitler was not a catholic, I will list many of the crimes that Hitler committed against Catholics, as well as documented evidence that pope pius xii himself was involved with the German resistance (which was lead and run by Christians, including the catholic Claus von Stauffenberg and his brother whom gave their lives trying to kill the Hitler) which tried multiple times to kill Hitler.
    1. The destruction of catholic churches throughout Europe, but mainly in Poland.
    Ian Kershaw; Hitler a Biography; 2008 p.661.
    2. The murder of thousands of priests, including those whom were sent to concentration camps.
    Ian Kershaw; Hitler a Biography; 2008 p.661.
    3. The torture and murder of Catholic Priest Antoni Zawistowski, along with over 2,720 other members of catholic clergy in Dachau, the first Nazi concentration camp.
    Encyclopædia Britannica: Dachau, by Michael Berenbaum.
    Paul Berben; Dachau: The Official History 1933-1945.
    The Priests of Dachau by Ronald Rychlak.
    4. According to SS General Karl Wolff, while he was testifying at the Nuremberg Trials, stated that he was ordered, in person by Hitler, to kidnap the pope.
    John Hooper. 2005, January 17. “Hitler plot to kidnap the pope revealed”. The Guardian.
    5. Colonel Erwin von Lahousen, during the Nuremberg Trials, stated under oath that the Reich Main Security Office had been ordered by Hitler to make a plot to punish the Italian people by kidnapping the Pope and killing him.
    Zenit. June 16, 2009. “More Proof of Hitler’s Plot to Kill Pius XII Archived April 21, 2010, at the Wayback Machine.”.

    In conclusion, Hitler was not a catholic when he was leading Germany. He was a deadly enemy of all Catholics, including the foundation of the Catholic Church its self, the office of the Pope.

    “Quite simply Hitler wasn’t an atheist, neither was the Third Reich or the vast majority of Germans who carried out Hitler’s orders. “
    Unless you can show actual documented proof that your “vast majority” of Hitler followers kept their faith while following him, then I can’t believe your claim.
    On the other hand I am able to prove that the vast majority of those who were in the German resistance were Christian, including their honored leader Claus von Stauffenberg.

    Also there is recorded evidence of correspondence and cooperation between the Pope and the German resistance. Before the German resistance attempted to kill Hitler, with a plane bomb, they contacted the pope and asked him for his support of the operation, which he gave. The communications between The German resistance and the Vatican were made possible a man named Josef Müller, who was himself a devote catholic, and spy for the Vatican, and was tortured and nearly died assisting the German resistance.
    Joachim Fest; Plotting Hitler’s Death: The German Resistance to Hitler, 1933–1945; Weidenfeld & Nicolson 1996 p. 131
    John Toland; Hitler; Wordsworth Editions; 1997 Edn; p. 760.
    William L. Shirer; The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich; Secker & Warburg; London; 1960; pp. 648–49
    Ronald Rychlak, Cornwell’s Errors: Reviewing Hitler’s Pope.

    “In direct contradiction of the Christian Gods instructions regarding the treatment of slaves, lol? No they didn’t.”

    Actually they did, and also I can tell that you are referring to the Old Testament laws which were done away with in the New Testament. Also I am not sure where you are getting your interpretation of scripture from, as I have been in the catholic church my entire life and have never heard a single member of the clergy ever support the practice of slavery.
    Furthermore, I would like to point out that even the Orthodox Jews, whom still follow the Old Testament books which you are referencing from, do not own any slaves in today’s world.

    “Not quite correct. Augustine felt that slavery was inevitable – the product of sin, not a sin in and of itself. “The prime cause, then, of slavery is sin, which brings man under the dominion of his fellow — that which does not happen save by the judgment of God, with whom is no unrighteousness, and who knows how to award fit punishments to every variety of offence.””
    “St Augustine, The City of God, 19:15”

    The quote that you have referenced does not contain a denial of the fact that slavery is sin. It does however demonstrate that Augustine, as I stated, “opposed slavery”.
    Furthermore, it is historical fact that St. Augustine led many of the clergy members under his direct authority to free slaves “as an act of piety”.
    Augustine, “Of the Work of Monks”, p. 25, Vol. 3, Nicene & Post-Nicene Fathers, Eerdman’s, Reprinted 1986.
    St. Augustine wrote a very passionate letter to the Emperor of Hippo, urging him to make laws that would stop the selling of slaves, and he put a specific emphasis on stopping the selling of children.
    The Saints, Pauline Books & Media, Daughters of St. Paul, Editions du Signe (1998), p. 72.

    “This is probably bullshit. Research at Cambridge by Dr. Roy Flechner casts doubt on the traditional story of St. Patrick being taken as a slave to Ireland as a teenager before escaping back to Britain.”

    I noticed that you used the words “probably” and “doubt” to describe your so called PROOF that “the traditional story of St. Patrick” “is bullshit”. This shows that you lack certainty and confidence, as does “Dr. Roy Flechner”, in your belief that “the traditional story of St. Patrick” is false.
    Also I wonder how “Dr. Roy Flechner” calculated that “the traditional story of St. Patrick” is “probably” wrong.
    Also you only list one scholar, “Dr. Roy Flechner”, that supports your position, while I can do the same thing. Lets agree that there are scholars that believe in the “the traditional story of St. Patrick”, and there are those who do not. Unless we can get them all, or at least an overwhelming majority, to agree to one side of this issue, the listing of scholars becomes pointless. It is pointless because for every scholar that speaks in favor of your belief I can list another that sides with my beilief.

    “According to Flechner, once Patrick was faced with the obligation to become a Decurion following the void left by his father, he preferred to emigrate overseas. Ireland would have been a natural choice, given its proximity and links with western Britain.”

    This is false due the fact that that Patrick did not return to Ireland until he was given the position of bishop. Also Ireland had few links between Britain due to the massive amount of cultural differences, as well as the fact that Ireland was still populated mostly by people who practiced a form of paganism that was viewed as so vile that the roman pagans had made it illegal to practice in Britain.
    Confession of St. Patrick. Christian Classics Ethereal Library at Calvin College. Retrieved 11 March 2010.

    “The traditional story that Patrick was kidnapped from Britain, forced to work as a slave, but managed to escape and reclaim his status, is likely to be fiction: the only way out of slavery in this period was to be released by manumission or redeemed, and Patrick never says he was redeemed. The traditional legend was instigated by Patrick himself in the texts he wrote, because this is how he wanted to be remembered.””

    Once again you have displayed a significant amount of doubt in your own agruement by stating that “The traditional story” “is likely to be fiction”. By doing that you have once again shown your own uncertainty.
    First I would like to know if this is your own determination or is this what “Dr. Roy Flechner” determined.
    Also instead of stating facts, you provided what appears to be a personal, and certainly false assumption, that “The traditional legend was instigated by Patrick himself in the texts he wrote, because this is how he wanted to be remembered.”. Your assumption must be viewed as false because of the simple fact that you have no proof to back up your claim about Patrick’s motive for writing .
    Furthermore, you stated that the only way out of slavery in this period “was to be released by manumission or redeemed”, yet you overlook the third and most obvious way of being freed, which is escaping, which is exactly what Patrick did.
    “Confession of St. Patrick, Part 17”. Christian Classics Ethereal Library at Calvin College. Retrieved 11 March 2010.

    “Ireland did not have a monetary economy at this early stage, so exchanging his family land in Britain for money would have been pointless. Slaves, however, were a highly valued commodity and Patrick mentions that his family owned slaves, which was common for aristocratic families in Britain at this time.”

    Notice that you did not state that Patrick owned slaves, you stated that “his family owned slaves”. Also it would have been completely impossible for Patrick to use any of his “money”, much less the “money that his family” had, due to the fact that he was cut off from them when he was kidnapped in his youth and forced into slavery overseas.
    “Confession of St Patrick” written by St Patrick himself, which is a firsthand account written by the Bishop himself.

    “No, it was just something else they adopted and incorporated into Christianity from earlier religions.”
    Once again you make the mistake of speaking about Christianity as if it were one united belief system, when in reality there are many different types of Christianity, many of which are false.
    If you are going to criticize individual Christians for racism then go ahead, in fact I would happily help you.
    But if you are going to accuse Christianity, as a whole, of being a racist belief system then you must prove that each and every one of the thousands of denominations that exist are all teaching racism.
    Generalizing so many different belief systems is not logical, because they all teach different things.

    “Except for the Christian Crusaders who ate the flesh of Muslim soldiers after the seige and capture of Ma’arra (there were multiple, independent, first hand accounts of that little party). Not to mention the thriving trade in medicinal cannablism which lasted long after the Christianisation of Europe. As usual the facts disagree with messy’s grandiose claims.”

    First of all you did not list any sources to back up these claims, which already makes your credibility look even more questionable than it already does.
    Secondly, this does show that I made a mistake in how I worded my claim. Instead of typing “Christians managed to wipe out the practice of human sacrifice and cannibalism throughout Europe as well as North and south America”, I should have typed “Christians managed to wipe out the vast majority of human sacrifice and cannibalism throughout Europe, as well as in north and south America.
    Thirdly, this does not prove that Christianity teaches cannibalism. The only thing that this shows is that there were some Catholic Christians, hundreds of years ago, that betrayed the Catholic Church by violating the Catholic anticannibalism teachings. Although I will admit that in some rare cases, where people are in situations like that of the tragic Donner Party, if you have absolutely no other way to stay alive, then people are allowed to “eat” the flesh of man. This however does not give anyone the right to murder those around them for food, because that is still considered murder which is viewed as a “grave sin”.

    “To be fair I’m not just judging *all Christians* as a group. I lump all of the other irrational theists in there too. Any illogical looney who insists that their God is real and not just a product of their imagination. In fact the fact that there are so many different brands of Christians is just more evidence that the Christian god does not exist. You’d think an all knowing, all powerful god would have no problem presenting itself in such a way that everyone gets the exact same message with no room for different interpretations, but apparently not. Instead you get all these different versions of the Christian god who just happen to act in just the way those doing the interpreting imagine He would behave.””

    If you are going to call us “illogical looney”s then you have to present a reasonable and well documented argument to prove your belief.
    And I agree that many Christians are illogical and looney and I would happily help you criticizes them.
    But your position assumes that all forms of Christianity are false, and you group their belief systems in with other belief systems that are completely different from theirs. Doing that is not logical at all by any standard.
    If I used your same method of “lumping” all theist together and criticizing them as one group, and used that same method to criticize all atheists as one group, then I would be just as illogical as you.
    No offence.

  89. on 20 May 2017 at 3:55 am 89.The Messenger said …

    I like alternative facts, just like Trump supporters. It is true as long as I feel it is true. No actual evidence needed. The only evidence is what I want to believe based on what I was brainwashed on.

  90. on 20 May 2017 at 4:34 am 90.The Messenger said …

    To whomever posted the “89.The Messenger comment”, this is just sad.
    Instead of having a logical, civil, mature, and informed debate with me you have stooped to the level of a TROLL.

    Your Trollish ways only succeed in making your position in this argument look even more ridiculous.

  91. on 20 May 2017 at 4:48 am 91.The Messenger said …

    To all who are on this site, if there is fault in the arguments that I have made, in my recent comments, then please show me those faults and disprove my claims using logic and well documented proof. I welcome it.

    But, if you resort to childish trolling and the utilization of unreliable sources and false assumptions of any kind then I will call you out on it.

    Please let us all act like mature and have logical discussion. That all I am asking for.

  92. on 20 May 2017 at 4:53 am 92.The Messenger said …

    To all who are on this site, if there is fault in the arguments that I have made, in my recent comments, then please show me those faults and disprove my claims using logic and well documented proof. I welcome it.

    But, if you resort to childish trolling and the utilization of unreliable sources and false assumptions of any kind then I will call you out on it.
    Please let us all act mature and have logical and reasonable discussion. That is all I am asking for.

  93. on 21 May 2017 at 4:19 am 93.Kayce Boas said …

    You actually make it seem so easy with your presentation but I find this topic to be actually something that I think I would never understand. It seems too complicated and very broad for me. I’m looking forward for your next post, I will try to get the hang of it!

  94. on 21 May 2017 at 8:46 pm 94.The Messenger said …

    I need to call myself out, because the bible isn’t a reliable source or documented proof of a god. The reality of the supernatural is also a false assumption. The troll living under the bridge is just as real.

  95. on 22 May 2017 at 3:31 am 95.The Messenger said …

    To whomever (I think that’s ether Alex or Fred) posted comment “94.The Messenger”, why don’t you provide documented evidence to support your claims?

    And furthermore you still have yet to issue a single counter argument to my previous comments.

    Your trolling is actually amusing to me!!
    Keep it coming :)

  96. on 22 May 2017 at 3:36 am 96.The Messenger said …

    Furthermore, I would like to point out that I didn’t even use a single bible verse or quote in my previous argument.

    Also, how do you know that the “reality of the supernatural” is a “false assumption”? You provided no evidence to back up that claim.

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  98. on 23 May 2017 at 1:08 am 98.The Messenger said …

    There is no evidence of evidence of evidence…….

  99. on 23 May 2017 at 1:42 am 99.The Messenger said …

    …….of evidence………

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