Feed on Posts or Comments 25 July 2014

Christianity Thomas on 25 May 2010 12:13 am

Why would Christians behave this way: ‘Atheists’ sign under siege

Why would Christians behave this way?

‘Atheists’ sign under siege

So why do atheists get such a bad rap?

I posed the question to atheists Sharon and Bill Weisman of Glendale. The couple are well-known in the community and involved in a variety of local projects. I hoped they might be able to shed some light on my question, but that wasn’t the case.

“We’re puzzled. We don’t understand the motive,” Sharon Weisman said. “For some reason, religious people don’t have a problem disrespecting atheists.”

Bill Weisman calls it an irony that someone would destroy something their very tax dollars are paying for.

“It’s motivated by hatred, motivated by anger,” he said. Bill also finds it ironic that such an act might be committed by a person whose religion is based on tolerance, acceptance and love.

Christians are delusional – that’s why:

89 Responses to “Why would Christians behave this way: ‘Atheists’ sign under siege”

  1. on 25 May 2010 at 11:20 am 1.Curmudgeon said …

    Where is the proof Christians changed the sign? I believe atheist do it to the sign in order to present themselves as victims.

    Of course atheist are not harmless. They steal crosses on highways, they cry about God on money and they cry about God in a pledge. Americans do not like intolerant people and atheist have presented themselves as such.

  2. on 25 May 2010 at 12:43 pm 2.Corey said …

    God knows that we cannot obey every one of his commandments. That’s why he sent his son to die for us, so we could be forgiven by the spilling of his blood. Humans are not perfect through original sin, so God had to use some sort of alternative (Jesus’ death on the cross) to allow us into heaven.

  3. on 25 May 2010 at 2:13 pm 3.Marcus said …

    @ Corey How convenient. You get given a bunch of commands to follow, then claim you can completely ignore them because god has given you “some sort of alternative to allow us into heaven”. What a load of old bollocks! I don’t think I’ve ever read such a torturous piece of logic.

    You also say that “Humans are not perfect”. Whose fault is that then? As I understand it, christians believe that god created the universe and everything in it. Ergo, he created the devil, the snake and a human failing called ‘giving in to temptation’. So either god didn’t actually create everything or he made a pretty crap job of it. Take your pick.

    Finally, “God knows that we cannot obey every one of his commandments.” What? So why on earth did he bother giving them to us then?

  4. on 25 May 2010 at 3:38 pm 4.Corey said …

    God created good and allowed evil because evil is simply the abscense of good or the conflict between two good things. God wanted to give humans the right to choose between good and the abscense of good, so he didn’t force us to live by his law. The reason he didn’t force us to follow his law here on earth is because that would mean he is enslaving us in only being able to choose one thing, so it wouldn’t be a choice at all; therefore, we chose and still choose to do evil, hence the creation of sin (evil) was by man (adam and eve), not god.

    Because humans have natural sin through adam and eve, we cannot control our sinful nature, so God gives us the chance to repent of our sins so we can still go to heaven. He also gave us his son, whose blood is shed for us, to go to heaven. When God sacrificed his only son for our sins, we were eternally forgiven, but the only way we can get into heaven is if we accept that God and all his ways are true. In one word, FAITH. The ten commandments are more or less a moral code that was designed to show us why we need a savior in the first place. God knew we could never follow his commandments because we were naturally sinful.

    Yes God did create the devil, but that doesn’t mean he created the evil that the devil did.

  5. on 25 May 2010 at 6:18 pm 5.Curmudgeon said …

    “claim you can completely ignore them because god has given you “some sort of alternative to allow us into heaven”.”

    Can you keep them? Who claims humans are suppose to ignore the commandments?

    “You also say that “Humans are not perfect”. Whose fault is that then?”

    It is free will, humans fault. Remington is not responsible when someone uses a 22 to kill another being.

    “God knows that we cannot obey every one of his commandments.” What? So why on earth did he bother giving them to us then?”

    So we would know we are sinners.

  6. on 25 May 2010 at 7:21 pm 6.Corey said …

    The commandments were devised to point out our sins to ourselves. This is such because the commandments are not specific. They categorize our sins to show us what we did. No matter what the sin is, it will always fall under one of the 10 commandments. The alternative that I speak of is Jesus. Jesus is what gets us into heaven. The commandments merely point out the fact that we needed a savior to get us past our sinful nature. I never said that humans can or should ignore them, i simply stated that humans have the choice of ignoring them and no matter in thought, word, or deed, we can never keep the commandments perfectly. We are, by nature, sinful and unclean, it s impossible for us to follow them perfectly.

    The fault belies on adam and eve because they were the ones to choose to do evil, not God. God didn’t create adam and eve as imperfect beings, when they chose to do evil, they chose to be imperfect.

    And as I already stated, God gave us the ten commandments to reveal our imperfections and sinful natures to ourselves, not as a tool to judge us. Our judgement is based solely off of our faith.

  7. on 25 May 2010 at 8:21 pm 7.MrQ said …

    Corey,
    Do I read you right in that you believe in Adam & Eve? A 6000 or so year old earth? Noah’s Ark?

    By default, then, you do not believe in mitochondrial eve? Billions of year old universe?

  8. on 26 May 2010 at 12:07 am 8.Corey said …

    Yes, what is your question(s)?

  9. on 26 May 2010 at 1:49 am 9.MrQ said …

    Corey,

    What about the geologic column? Our apeman-like ancestors? Is that all fake, just god’s test of faith? Fossils, dinosaurs, archeology, anthropology, evolution…..don’t really know where to begin. Do you dismiss all the facts with “ain’t in my bible”?

    I believe I already asked you earlier if your god was all seeing and the rather confusing answer you gave seems to have been “maybe”.
    You mentioned that god can travel back and forth through time, OK. Then you said the future is always changing. So, it would appear that god DOES NOT know the future since it’s always changing?

    With that sort of “airtight” logic I am amazed that you think you have any valid arguments. But, I imagine, it takes faith to hold your mindset and that’s what you own in spades. How does logic function with you? Needs to be in biblical context, doesn’t it?

  10. on 26 May 2010 at 11:05 am 10.Marcus said …

    corey

    I honestly despair. Are statements like “God created good and allowed evil because evil is simply the abscense of good or the conflict between two good things” really the most coherent explanation you people can come up with on the subject? Just try listening to yourself. It’s convoluted, torturous nonsense. Actually, it’s insanity.

  11. on 26 May 2010 at 12:52 pm 11.Corey said …

    Mr.Q, please answer me how scientists can date fossils back to however many billions of years when Carbon 14 dating only allows us to go back a few thousands?

    Dismiss what I said before about god not knowing the future, I am human, I made a mistake in what I said.

    The question isn’t about whether biblical text supports it, it’s whether or not science supports it. There is no hard evidence that scientifically proves God wrong.

    Marcus, how can you possibly say that what I said is false? your snide remarks definitely are not proving what i said to be false.

  12. on 26 May 2010 at 3:55 pm 12.3D said …

    11.Corey said …
    The question isn’t about whether biblical text supports it, it’s whether or not science supports it. There is no hard evidence that scientifically proves God wrong.

    There is no hard evidence that scientifically proves the Tooth Fairy wrong, either.

    So, have you joined the First Universal Church of the Perpetual Tooth Fairy yet? Since you believe in things because they can’t be disproved, you better get started, there’s like a zillion of them.

  13. on 26 May 2010 at 7:15 pm 13.MrQ said …

    Corey,
    “There is no hard evidence that scientifically proves God wrong.”

    I don’t think science is hunting for evidence to prove god wrong. That’s not the way it works. Science is driven by the need to understand why things are the way they are. A hunt for the truth that should be cold, detached from prejudice, and open-ended. It’s a search for answers which likely rocks your “absolute” world view. The results of the scientific method are really quite impressive: medicines, space travel, astronomy, comfortable lives, longer lives, faster internet, etc, etc.

    I am no expert, but I think there is more in the arsenal of dating artefacts and fossils than carbon-14. Don’t trust me, though, look it up.

    So, your Omnimax god. How does the all-seeing part work? I’ll let you start from scratch again. How does god know all- past, present, and future? Does he go into the future at will?

  14. on 26 May 2010 at 8:06 pm 14.Corey said …

    Ok, we don’t understand God enough to know how he sees everything, but we do know that he does. Because God is all-knowing, he can see what happens before it happens. Think of it like this–God is looking at a big, three-paneled flat screen. Each panel has a different time on it. He could very well be looking at your future at the exact same time as my past. This is explained by God being all-powerful. Since he is all-powerful, he can do ANYTHING.

    Now tell me your arguments so we can start this over again, haha.

  15. on 26 May 2010 at 8:20 pm 15.Xenon said …

    ‘The results of the scientific method are really quite impressive: medicines, space travel, astronomy, comfortable lives, longer lives, faster internet, etc, etc.”

    Now see Q this is where you become dishonest. Observational sciences are without disagreement for the most part. Historical sciences are very weak at determining the truth due to the fact we cannot observe what happened 4 billion years. If you cannot see the differences between semiconductor sciences and origins there is not much hope for you.

    Now exactly what sort of evidence would you need to be handed to prove that God does exist? I have never experienced an atheist who could offer up a very astute analysis.

  16. on 26 May 2010 at 8:38 pm 16.MrQ said …

    Corey,
    I say that if god knows the future then the concept of “free will” is moot. God knows if and when everyone prays and god knows, in advance, if he will grant those prayers. God knows how you will behave day in and day out. You, by extension, are acting out your part in a script known ONLY to god. He is looking at his 3 panel television set fully aware of EVERYTHING. God knew of the fallen angel, knew that Adam and Eve would fail, knew of the Holocaust and Rwandan genocide, knew of the impact of AIDS in Africa. Yet fails to do anything to help us out even though he is all powerful (and all loving?) and billions of prayers have been sent his way. Ok, maybe I am asking too much; Maybe god can just do something really simple like grow an arm or leg back for an amputee.

    Free will is ONLY possible if the future is entirely UNKNOWN. If the future is known to god, then you, Corey, are bound to strictly follow the script that he has written for you. However, if you somehow fail to follow the script then the future is unknown to god and he becomes less all seeing. So, what is it? Omniscient or not?

  17. on 26 May 2010 at 8:51 pm 17.MrQ said …

    Xenon,

    Are you another young Earther? What’s this about things happening 4 billion years ago? Corey is gonna be really upset.

    I do see the differences between semiconductors and origins. As a matter of fact, there are a few semiconductors employed on the Hubble Telescope and the data analyzing boxes which are looking into deep space and glimpsing some of those early universe moments. But don’t tell Corey, he thinks we’ve only been around for a few thousand years.

  18. on 26 May 2010 at 9:45 pm 18.Corey said …

    There is a difference between knowing the future and altering it. God knows the future because he is all-knowing, not because he planned it for us. We still live it out and we still make the decisions in our life. God can just see them before they happen.

    Now the reason God does not interfere with all the suffering that the world has to go through is because suffering was designed to strengthen our faith. Christians have faith that after our suffering in this world, God will reward us by eternal life in heaven. Those faithful Christians who can suffer through the sin that man has caused and die while with the faith of God will go to heaven. Those who fall into temptation of making their lives easier by committing sins will receive eternal damnation. Believing that the universe was created by something other than God, or whatever feels comfortable to you is choosing the easy way out. that’s not the way to go.

    As soon as the Hubble telescope figures out what those “early universe moments” really are, they will show that the universe isn’t as old as you think.

  19. on 26 May 2010 at 9:54 pm 19.Xenon said …

    If you do indeed realize the difference between observational and historical science, why is it you atheist continually claim that the religious do not believe in science? It could be expressed, the religious claim “godddidit” when it comes to science? It is a common theme that emits an attitude of superiority in science that is just not genuine.

    It is just another erroneous supposition that makes your opinions for the most part moot.

    You aren’t REALLY one of these atheist are you? Isn’t atheism just a little bit too naive?

  20. on 26 May 2010 at 10:52 pm 20.MrQ said …

    Well, Xenon,

    I acknowledge that we can look into the past whereas you don’t. Hubble is doing it right now. When you state “the fact we cannot observe what happened 4 billion years.” (post#15) shows you have no grasp of what can and cannot be observed with scientific means. This is a direct observation. There are also other techniques for “looking” into the past but they’re not always as direct as the Hubble.

    I see no reason to jump up and say “god sparked the universe” because, at the moment, there is no proof of such. And if I did see god as the spark, I would have a hard time saying “Jesus is my saviour” immediately afterwards. Being skeptical by nature, I would investigate what happened and continue to ask questions.

    As for the scientists who believe in a god, Corey would be well served to investigate their beliefs. Might be enlightening.

  21. on 27 May 2010 at 12:43 am 21.MrQ said …

    For Corey and Xenon, from a caring atheist.

    See what a religious scientist might say about evolution, god, and age of the Earth/Universe.

    From a Baptist:
    http://biologos.org/
    “From all we know about the state of the Earth 3 to 4 billion years ago and what we know about the complexity of the building blocks of life — DNA, RNA, amino acids, sugars — no entirely plausible hypothesis for the spontaneous origin of life has been found.. But this does not mean that divine intervention is the only possible explanation.”

    From a Catholic:
    http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/evol/

    So Xenon, what type of atheist does that make me?

  22. on 27 May 2010 at 1:04 am 22.Observer said …

    Another interesting thread which illustrates the breathtaking ignorance of the theist crowd.

    Corey- You were at a loss as to how something could be dated beyond the limits of Carbon radio-isotopes. Have you not heard of potassium-argon dating? You may have come across it and did not understand what you were reading. It is often abbreviated KAr, or K/Ar dating. This will get you back billions of years; but with the added bonus that Ar is inert, hence chemically stable. This is how continental plate rocks, notably pre-Cambrian shield rocks, are dated.

    As for the theist crowd out here, why are you so averse to learning? I have posted over the past month several references to Prigogine. No one has responded to that. You could order his layperson book with inter-library loan. He pretty much gives a good grounding on complexity in nature. The science community realizes the value of this work. Third-tier scientists like Behe wouldn’t. His ego is too brittle.

  23. on 27 May 2010 at 2:17 am 23.Corey said …

    I will definitely read into the KAr dating. I can honestly say that I have never heard of it, and if it is true that it dates back billions of years, why hasn’t there been a complete overthrowing of science to religion? If KAr was that accurate and that big of a deal, why hasn’t theists acknowledged the fact that they were wrong? Obviously, there are some flaws with KAr dating if this hasn’t happened. Nevertheless, I will still read up and then form my opinions.

  24. on 27 May 2010 at 2:26 am 24.Anonymous said …

    “why hasn’t there been a complete overthrowing of science to religion? If KAr was that accurate and that big of a deal, why hasn’t theists acknowledged the fact that they were wrong?”

    Corey,
    The majority of people may not know about it because the media is too busy covering things like the Lost finale, who won American Idol, what celebrity is cheating on their spouse, etc. People are too busy being entertained rather than trying to educate themselves on actual important topics.

  25. on 27 May 2010 at 3:18 am 25.Corey said …

    Christian believers like myself don’t. Don’t you think that if I knew for sure the world was older than six thousand years that I would tell someone? The word spreads, my friend, and if this was such a big break-through, the world would know.

  26. on 27 May 2010 at 8:50 am 26.Marcus said …

    corey

    “how can you possibly say that what I said is false? your snide remarks definitely are not proving what i said to be false.”

    Firstly, if you go back through this thread I think you’ll find that I’m not trying to prove that what you say is false. I’m just pointing out that what you say doesn’t make any sense. As in none whatsoever. Honestly, just try reading what you posted (ie “Because God is all-knowing, he can see what happens before it happens. Think of it like this–God is looking at a big, three-paneled flat screen. Each panel has a different time on it. He could very well be looking at your future at the exact same time as my past.”). They are some of the most inane, nonsensical arguments I’ve ever read. Seriously, it’s just a jumble of words that don’t actually mean or say anything intelligible.

    Secondly, the burden of proof lies with you, Corey. You are the one claiming to know the mind of this supreme being of yours who created everything and knows everything. You are the one claiming to have a clear understanding of what he thinks. What he wants. What he demands of his creation. What he had in mind when he set his list of rules that he knew we couldn’t keep anyway. So, let’s hear it. What, exactly, is your proof?

  27. on 27 May 2010 at 11:21 am 27.Xenon said …

    “the burden of proof lies with you, Corey. You are the one claiming to know the mind of this supreme being of yours who created everything and knows everything.”

    I would think the burden is on the atheist to prove the universe with all of its complexity come come about by random chance. That is a much greater leap of faith. This is an atheist blog selling a view point. How?

    Corey

    You have not heard a lot about KAr due to the fact it has its flaws just as any dating system. It is not the magic bullet.

  28. on 27 May 2010 at 12:13 pm 28.Marcus said …

    Xenon

    Sorry, you are completely (and disingenuously) wrong. I’m not the one going around making outlandish claims about the existence of a sky fairy that has the power to create life, the universe and everything. I suggest that such an assertion does indeed require evidence if it is to be accepted as truth. And as yet, I have seen nothing other than ludicrously fanciful opinions about what god may or may not be thinking and demanding and what kind of TV screen he watches our lives on. So, I’m waiting. Let me see your proof.

  29. on 27 May 2010 at 12:44 pm 29.Corey said …

    It was simply an example. If there was an all-knowing being, wouldn’t that permit him/her to see everything? yes, it would. So since God is all-knowing, he can see everything all the time and whenever he wants. If that doesn’t make sense, I really don’t know how to explain it. All-knowing means you know everything, whether it’s past, present, or future. What don’t you understand?

  30. on 27 May 2010 at 12:52 pm 30.Marcus said …

    What I really don’t understand is how you can believe all these amazing claims you keep posting without the merest shred of evidence to support them.

    You say “he can see everything all the time and whenever he wants.” Really? How on earth do you know? Seriously. What information do you have that makes you believe this claim is true? I’d be extremely grateful if you could share it.

  31. on 27 May 2010 at 1:34 pm 31.Observer said …

    It is appropriate that the inert Xenon weighs in on Argon. OK. What is the flaw of KAr? Do you have some new insight into nuclear physics such as time variant decay rates?

    Corey- KAr has been around for decades. You wonder why you don’t know about it? That gets back to my comment on the breathtaking ignorance of the theist community. You folk intentionally insulate yourselves from learning on several fronts: First for many your primary source of information is from “clergy”. Look at your history; there is no less reliable source for knowledge about the non-supernatural world. What is worse, even if these folks went to a reputable seminary, forget the sweaty evangelist crowd, the scope of their studies is spectacularly narrow. They typically do not even have college freshman level science requirements. Second, most “believers”, such as yourself, do not seek-out scientific knowledge. Worse, many believers think there is some sort of conspiracy by scientists to suppress the good word. There are other reasons too, but less palatable. Anyway, good luck.

  32. on 27 May 2010 at 2:42 pm 32.Horatio said …

    Buster,

    Are you back spewing your ridiculous rhetoric. Nobody believes there are scientific conspiracies. There are only the obstinate like you who marginalize any scientist who does not follow your worldview. Take a deep breath and wise up mombian dalit.

    As X stated previously, the blog makes the claim that God does not exist. Therefore, you should be capable of providing the necessary framework of reasoning to support such claim. Begin by proving how origins through natural means did take place. That would be a great starting point.

  33. on 27 May 2010 at 4:59 pm 33.Observer said …

    Hor- Thanks for another chuckle. You never disappoint. “Praise Jesus!” but please don’t piss in the aisle.

  34. on 27 May 2010 at 5:35 pm 34.Horatio said …

    No problem, but listen when you work up those testosterone levels to bust another nose, as you come across the bridge of the nose could you practice some primal scream therapy? Maybe a Jack Bauer blast would be in order.

  35. on 27 May 2010 at 7:03 pm 35.Severin said …

    32 Horatio
    “As X stated previously, the blog makes the claim that God does not exist.”

    Where? When?

    You are on the wrong blog!

    Can you point such a claim either in http://whywontgodhealamputees.com or in comments of atheists on this blog?

  36. on 27 May 2010 at 8:02 pm 36.Corey said …

    Severin,

    This whole website is about disproving God through scientific, historic, and logical answers, isn’t it? couldn’t you use logic to realize that’s what this website is about? DUHHH

  37. on 27 May 2010 at 8:11 pm 37.DWH said …

    I regularly do my part to affirm evolution, green sensitivities and the joining of these insights. What I do is to somewhat regularly pick a delightful tree to piss on, believing that by uniting myself with the trees long enough, that natural selection will eventually produce a tree with a human arm flipping the universal sign of discontent towards all of us “higher” life forms.

  38. on 27 May 2010 at 8:19 pm 38.Corey said …

    Severin,

    For the record, here is a line I found in another blog that the owner of the website posted.

    “Any normal, rational person would take this at face value. Jesus, like God, is imaginary.”

    Notice that it says, “Jesus, like God, is imaginary.”

    Also, what kind of atheist CAPITALIZES “God” when he doesn’t even believe in him?

    Maybe this means that you are not a purist atheist, you are a marginalized atheist.

  39. on 27 May 2010 at 9:00 pm 39.Marcus said …

    Corey & Xenon

    Still waiting, guys.

  40. on 27 May 2010 at 10:54 pm 40.Xenon said …

    Corey

    I don’t believe our friends realize godisimiginary.com is the sister blog of this one. It is pretty obvious but there it is. Thanks for pointing out the obvious.

    Now the proof?

  41. on 27 May 2010 at 11:46 pm 41.Marcus said …

    Come on, Corey. Where is the proof?

    Put up or shut up, as the saying goes.

  42. on 28 May 2010 at 12:10 am 42.Xenon said …

    Marcus,

    Maybe it wasn’t obvious. I am asking YOU for the proof since this blog & sister blog claims god is imaginary. C’mon Marcus back-up the rhetoric.

    Piss or get off the pot as the saying goes.

  43. on 28 May 2010 at 12:35 am 43.Marcus said …

    Hi Xenon.

    Ouch! Sorry, did I touch a nerve, my old son?

    Anyway, I didn’t come here to spout off about what I believe, I joined this thread in reply to the complete and utter nonsense that your friend corey was saying.

    I have nothing to prove. And I am not trying to prove anything, I am just challenging the twaddle that you and your fellow xtians keep putting up as ‘truth’.

    Anyway, please be sure to let me know when you are ready to share your irrefutable proof that there is a sky fairy. I would be only to happy to admit defeat when I see the evidence. (Thinks to self: I could be here for a feckin’ eternity.)

  44. on 28 May 2010 at 2:12 am 44.A real-ist said …

    Xenon,
    The proof is that there is no proof of the existence of a God. Reality doesn’t necessarily need a God. So, No proof of a God + no need of a God = No God.

  45. on 28 May 2010 at 3:47 pm 45.Marcus said …

    Xenon & Corey

    Any chance you could share your evidence soon? I’m getting really bored waiting.

  46. on 28 May 2010 at 4:13 pm 46.Xenon said …

    Marcus if you would like to post a statement I made I need to defend. I’ll be glad to provide needed support. Look forward to you prompt reply.

    Meantime, again, can you or will you support the presuppositions of this blog run by your friend Thomas? Namely this – God is imaginary? If you support such a definite statement then there must be some proof to support such an allegation.

    Sorry you have been bored. A life might help outside of clicking a refresh button hoping for a quick reply.
    __________________________________________________
    A-Realist of course you again are wrong. God is needed to put this entire creation together. I can’t support your fantasy of matter exiting forever or complexity come about by chance. LOL, please A-fantasy!

  47. on 28 May 2010 at 5:19 pm 47.A real-ist said …

    Xenon,
    In our world, there is no evidence of an existence of a God. But you claim he exists in another realm. Who is living the fantasy? At least we know matter exists. There is no fantasy about that. God(s) are made up fantasies, because reality points to that. Look up the definition of Faith. It means believing in something that isn’t proven. Faith = Fantasy.

  48. on 28 May 2010 at 7:39 pm 48.Corey said …

    I’m sorry Marcus for taking so long, I do have a busy life that involves other commitments not only to this website.

    The proof is that God, in order to have created the world and universe exactly the way he did, had to be omniscient, omni-benevolent, and omnipotent.

    Without the power to create the energy needed to form the universe, he wouldn’t be all-powerful.

    and YES, this may be circular reasoning, I understand, but there is no other solid explanation for or against and omnimax God.

  49. on 28 May 2010 at 7:48 pm 49.Corey said …

    Real-ist,

    The evidence of the existence of God is kind of obscure, but it comes from the words of the prophets that he informed. The prophets wrote the words of the bible based off of what God told them. God explained to them the destruction of certain cities like Sodom. The bible explains where it is located, the cause of destruction, and how it was destroyed. Archeological findings have discovered that Sodom was found in the exact place the bible mentions and was destroyed by fire and brimstone. There are many more examples of this in the bible. Here is the website of the findings of Sodom and Gomorrah.

    http://www.arkdiscovery.com/sodom_&_gomorrah.htm

  50. on 28 May 2010 at 8:19 pm 50.Xenon said …

    “God(s) are made up fantasies, because reality points to that.”

    You saying so is not proof and reality does not point to God as fantasy. That is simply opinion. The history of theism is long and well developed. In order to perpetuate the idea of atheism as a philosophy of value, you would need to provide evidence that theism is now invalid. You have failed to do so.

    Could you provide a link to your definition of faith? I doubt that is valid.

  51. on 28 May 2010 at 10:54 pm 51.A real-ist said …

    Faith – firm belief in something for which there is no proof

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/faith

    Corey,
    Just because some people decided to make up stories and put it in a book doesn’t make it true. Sodom could have been a real city that got burned down back then and they put a story about it in a book. That doesn’t mean a God told them to write the book.

  52. on 29 May 2010 at 2:37 pm 52.3D said …

    23.Corey said …
    I will definitely read into the KAr dating. I can honestly say that I have never heard of it, and if it is true that it dates back billions of years, why hasn’t there been a complete overthrowing of science to religion? If KAr was that accurate and that big of a deal, why hasn’t theists acknowledged the fact that they were wrong? Obviously, there are some flaws with KAr dating if this hasn’t happened.

    So, you’re going to read into it, already dismissing it as false before you crack the book open. Scientific method!

    Don’t feel bad — that’s a familiar song that’s always at the top of the charts. Christians said there were “some flaws” with the heliocentric view of the solar system too. Christians get very upset when theories have the “flaw” of not agreeing with the Bible.

    At least, nowadays, they don’t torture and kill people for suggesting scientific theories that contradict the Bible, anymore. At least not as much, anyway. Progress!

  53. on 02 Jun 2010 at 12:01 pm 53.old earther said …

    All of you can further open your world of logic by

    1. knowing that not all Christians accept a 6000 year old earth

    2. not all Christians reject scientifc dating methods, muchless the plethora of these methods

    3. being a Christian and also accepting an old universe and earth does not equate to subscribing to macroevolution

    4. some of us know and accept the universe and earth is billions of years old, that mitochondrial eve exists and Y-chromosomal adam as well, and that mtEve is much older than Y chromosomal adam…

    5. some of us old earth creationists are grieved at how foolish the young earth crowd make us look and that they get all the media’s attention

    Check out http://www.reasons.org for some nice, logical fun.

    Peace.

  54. on 04 Jun 2010 at 11:15 am 54.Corey said …

    3D,

    As every other dating system that has been formed, there are definitely flaws with KAr dating. For one thing, scientists have to assume that the world has always been the same. Assuming that the ecosystem has always been accompanied with a constant speed of growth is a very major flaw. KAr is used by the Argon being trapped within the Potassium. They assume, by how fast Argon deteriorates, the age of the fossils they have found. What makes you and scientists think that Argon has deteriorated as such for the entire time earth has been here? Also, God created the world old, he didn’t give the world a growth stage, it was mature when God created it and has been constantly growing and regrowing since. When God created the garden, he didn’t plant the seeds, he created the plants fully matured to support Adam and Eve. What came first, the chicken or the egg?

  55. on 04 Jun 2010 at 11:22 am 55.Corey said …

    Dear Old Earther,

    If you read the bible, and hopefully understand it, you will see that a lot of what you have stated is false. This is an example of a Christian who is too lazy to look for the real conclusion and forms opinions very much like the Atheistic community to make it easier to defend his faith.

    Christianity is not an easy faith to keep, but nevertheless, it is one that every human has.

    for example, mtEve and y chomosomal adam is false on many different stages. It clearly states in Genesis that God created humans, not single-cellular organisms. If you deny this, then you deny the truth and you don’t believe in everything that God is because God is the essense of truth.

  56. on 04 Jun 2010 at 3:38 pm 56.Obsrever said …

    Corey- We had some hope for you. You really do not seem to grasp anything about KAr dating, aside from it conflicting with the Bible, which is entirely correct. This is not meant as an insult, but are you out of high school?

    1. Physical “Laws” are assumed to be constant, as in tomorrow will be the same as today. That is why it is inadvisable to jump from tall buildings today, and if planning otherwise, tomorrow as well.
    2. KAr has nothing to do with ecosystems.
    3. ( I am chuckling as I write this) Ar is not “trapped” in K. It is a decay product. Your statement is out of the Middle Ages.
    4. There is nothing about KAr dating related to the decay of Ar.

    Did you have a sit down with your minister on this? If you did, and came away with your reply, you need a better minister. You also need education. (Not edumucation!)

    And in answer to the age old question: Given what we now know about genetics, the egg came first.

    Try this, you will find it comforting…

    http://www.fixedearth.com/

  57. on 04 Jun 2010 at 4:18 pm 57.Horatio said …

    Oh look Buster is back spouting more of his magnificent understanding of every thing under the yellow sun.

    I know many intelligent individuals and one thing I find is that no individual is an expert in all areas of study – that is until you appeared on the scene.

    May I just state that we are all in great awe of the grasp you have on any subject matter from Mambian Dalits to KAr dating. Bravo! Bravo!

    Corey

    While some of your wording is incorrect, there are assumptions and problems with KAr as with any dating system. It is to complex and technical to go on here but a simple google search will elaborate adequately.

  58. on 04 Jun 2010 at 7:38 pm 58.Corey said …

    Okay, I have a basic understanding of KAr. Maybe its you that doesn’t understand KAr! Here is Horatio’s amazing “google search!!!”

    “argon, being an inert gas, usually does not leech out of a mineral and is easy to measure in small samples. The actual date is comprised of the time it has been formed from molten/heated minerals. This method, therefore, is not very useful when dating the time a human bone has been in the ground, but it does help in giving the time of many of the artifacts that are often times found alongside burial.”

    Since this seems to be the “correct answer” then tell me how they are saying they have found billion year old dinosaur bones when bone cannot hold argon!! All bone has two major layers, solid and spongy. The reason bones cannot hold argon is because of the lack of density in the bone. If the bone cannot hold argon, its not possible for them to date it. If they cannot date it, its not possible for them to say the bone is a billion years old.

    Not only that, because bone is less dense than rock, after reaching a certain depth below the surface of the earth, the bone would be crushed. If my calculations are correct, the bone cannot be billions of years old.

    And for your lack of information on me…No, I am not out of high school, and I don’t use the help of my pastor. I do this on my own free time at my home when I am not involved in school or the three active sports I play. In fact, I hardly have enough time for church every sunday. As far as church attendance goes, I am hardly a Christian at all, but I stand firm in my belief in God and the Bible! My age has nothing to do with my inexperience! So all of you need to stop insulting me, and be grown up about what you say! As far as all the insults that have been strewn across this blog, I could say that I am one of the oldest people on this website, because people like Observer and Horatio cannot hold there tongues to all the nasty remarks that they seem obliged to say. Grow up!!

  59. on 04 Jun 2010 at 8:37 pm 59.Severin said …

    54 Corey
    „What makes you and scientists think that Argon has deteriorated as such for the entire time earth has been here?“

    What makes you think 2+2 makes, always made, an will always make = 4?
    Or, maybe you doubt it too?

    Radioactive elements have CONSTANT speed of deteriorating. It DOES NOT change with time. The time of deterioration is not linear, but it is EXACT, and easy to calculate.
    Some circumsttances may influence the results, but not at such a scale to confuse 6000 years with 6 million or 6 billion years.
    It is VERY sad to see an intelligent young person to be brain-washed in such an extent as you seem to be: you trust old books and money-hungry priests, and neglect science, logic and you own intelligence.

  60. on 04 Jun 2010 at 9:07 pm 60.Corey said …

    A number system is separate from the human condition, it is not influenced by emotion or bias. 2+2 will always equal 4. As for the KAr dating system, your buddy Horatio already confirmed that there are flaws with it as well as the “google search” that he had me look up.

    Beveled surfaces below, within, and above thick strata sequences provide evidence of rapid flood and post-flood erosion. Fossils provide universal evidence of rapid burial, and even agonizing death.

    Rapid burial is necessary to entomb organisms as the first step in fossilization. The abundant marine invertebrate fossils throughout the entire fossil strata demonstrate extraordinary burial conditions.

    Polystrate fossil logs (tree trunks in vertical position running through several sedimentary layers) are common in the fossil layers and are clear evidence of rapid burial.

    Common vertebrate fossils show rigor mortis and postures indicative of asphyxiation—sudden smothering of the animal (e.g., Archaeopteryx and dinosaur fossils in the quarry at Dinosaur National Monument).

  61. on 04 Jun 2010 at 9:07 pm 61.Corey said …

    The earth is covered with layers of sedimentary rock, much of it containing microscopic fossils such as plankton, pollen, and spores.

    The entire record of visible fossils consists mainly of marine invertebrates (animals without a backbone), including clams, jellyfish, and coral. What is surprising is that these ocean creatures are found primarily on the continents and rarely in the deep ocean basins. More clam shells are found on mountain peaks than under the ocean floor.

    From the bottom layers to the top layers, most fossils are marine creatures. The upper levels do have an increasing number of vertebrates, such as fish and amphibians, reptiles, and mammals, but the fossils at the bottom levels are equally as complex as any animal today.

    All fossil types appear suddenly, fully formed and fully functional, without less complex ancestors under them.

    The fossil record is strong evidence for the sudden appearance of life by creation, followed by rapid burial during a global flood.

  62. on 04 Jun 2010 at 9:08 pm 62.Corey said …

    The fossil record reflects the original diversity of life, not an evolving tree of increasing complexity. There are many examples of “living fossils,” where the species is alive today and found deep in the fossil record as well.

    According to evolution models for the fossil record, there are three predictions:

    1. wholesale change of organisms through time
    2. primitive organisms gave rise to complex organisms
    3. gradual derivation of new organisms produced transitional forms.

    However, these predictions are not borne out by the data from the fossil record.

    Trilobites, for instance, appear suddenly in the fossil record without any transitions. There are no fossils between simple single-cell organisms, such as bacteria, and complex invertebrates, such as trilobites.

    Extinct trilobites had as much organized complexity as any of today’s invertebrates. In addition to trilobites, billions of other fossils have been found that suddenly appear, fully formed, such as clams, snails, sponges, and jellyfish. Over 300 different body plans are found without any fossil transitions between them and single-cell organisms.

    Fish have no ancestors or transitional forms to show how invertebrates, with their skeletons on the outside, became vertebrates with their skeletons inside.

    Fossils of a wide variety of flying and crawling insects appear without any transitions. Dragonflies, for example, appear suddenly in the fossil record. The highly complex systems that enable the dragonfly’s aerodynamic abilities have no ancestors in the fossil record.

    In the entire fossil record, there is not a single unequivocal transition form proving a causal relationship between any two species. From the billions of fossils we have discovered, there should be thousands of clear examples if they existed.

    The lack of transitions between species in the fossil record is what would be expected if life was created.

  63. on 04 Jun 2010 at 9:09 pm 63.Corey said …

    Dinosaurs are often portrayed as having lived in a time before man. However, the available evidence shows that man and dinosaur coexisted.

    Legends of dragons are found among most people groups. For example, there are the stories of Bel and the dragon, the Kulta of Australian aborigines, St. George and the dragon, and of course many Chinese legends. Often, the anatomical descriptions given are consistent, even though they come from separate continents and various times. These depictions match what we know from the fossil evidence of certain dinosaurs. Thus, dinosaurs are known directly from their fossils, and indirectly from cave drawings, tapestries, textiles, figurines, carvings, bas reliefs, and many oral and written eyewitness accounts, most of which are quite old.

    The Bible states that “every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind” was created by God on Day Six of the creation week (Genesis 1:25)—including dinosaurs. On this same day, the first man and woman were also created (Genesis 1:26-27). Over 1,600 years later, Genesis 8:15 records that a pair of each land-dwelling animal “wherein is the breath of life”—again including dinosaurs—were taken aboard an ark that would have held over 101,000 square feet of floor space. This ensured that a remnant would be preserved through the worldwide watery destruction that fossilized many pre-Flood dinosaurs.

    The book of Job refers to a creature called behemoth. With a massive size and a tail like a cedar tree, its description matches that of a sauropod dinosaur. God calls it to Job’s attention with the words, “Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee” (Job 40:15). Thus, this statement affirms that both behemoth and man were made on the same day. Ezekiel, James, and Paul refer to the book of Job, authenticating its reliably historical testimony.

    The fact that dinosaur femur soft tissues have been described as “still squishy” and contain recognizable blood cells also confirms the recency of dinosaur fossil deposition. Science continues to demonstrate that dinosaurs did not predate humans, and that dinosaur kinds did not go extinct (if they all have) until after the Flood, which occurred only thousands of years ago.

  64. on 04 Jun 2010 at 9:34 pm 64.Severin said …

    55 Corey
    “If you read the bible, and hopefully understand it,..”

    WHAT is the way to understand the Bible, but the read it?

    What I read there was so disgusting, that I could not read it calmly: my stomach was going up and down all the time. Reading the Bible I felt all the time the same reactions as when I saw murder or rape in a film: total repulsion and disgusting, and sorrow for victims.

    How can ANYONE read about god’s brutalities and lunatic orders about killing children, without feeling repulsion, disgust and sorrow?
    How can ANYONE accept the monster described in the Bible as his „father“?

    Tell me, please, HOW to understand the Bible, but the way it was written?

    If you now start to interpret the Bible for me, then, for the sake of good debate, it is your duty to explain WHY would your interpretations be more valid than mine.
    WHAT is it that makes you right and me wrong?

  65. on 04 Jun 2010 at 9:39 pm 65.Severin said …

    “…your buddy Horatio”

    How did you conclude Horatio was my buddy?
    I never met the man, I do not know his identity, and I never agreed with his comments!

  66. on 04 Jun 2010 at 9:45 pm 66.Severin said …

    57 Horatio
    “I know many intelligent individuals and one thing I find is that no individual is an expert in all areas of study – that is until…..”
    ……….Horatio appeared on the scene!

  67. on 04 Jun 2010 at 9:49 pm 67.Severin said …

    To confirm the latter:
    “Horatio already confirmed that there are flaws with it (KAr method) …..

    An universal expert, horatio! And SOME authority!

  68. on 04 Jun 2010 at 10:03 pm 68.Corey said …

    I was simply making a statement because u and horatio seem to have similar arguments. Besides, that’s not exactly the point. Everything else that I mentioned is. Your already bias against god has caused u to mis interpret the bible. If u really wanna read the right interpretations, look them up. It’s not that hard to do. And make sure you get the NIV interpretations because many atheists like to use the miswording of other bibles to try and prove theism wrong.

  69. on 05 Jun 2010 at 6:48 am 69.Severin said …

    68 Corey
    “Your already bias against god has caused u to mis interpret the bible.“
    You can not have bias against something you don’t believe it exists. I have no bias against Santa!

    You read this blog very uncarefully if you find my arguments similar to Horatio’s ones.

    Haven’t you notice the trap you fell in? WHO wrote the NIV Bible? If it differs from the original Bible, which you implicitly claim by warning me to take THAT version, then WHO authorized the writers and interpreters to make those changes?
    WHY are bibles different? I thought there is ONE word of god, it turns that there are amny of them!
    It turns that you trust PEOPLE who claim the Bible is the word of god. Tere is absolutely no evidences any god wrote or dictated any of versions of Bibles ever.
    If you decided to trust PEOPLE, why don’t you trust people making progress? Why don’t you trust people who enebled you to heal when sick, to people who enabled you to travel by plain instead on horse…BUT chose to trust who wrote such an ugly book, and who changed it many times, according to THEIR needs?
    Was god directly involved in interpreting of the NIV?
    I suggest you to read something about the history of those people history of christianity), to make your decision about trusting them easier.

  70. on 05 Jun 2010 at 7:21 am 70.Severin said …

    68 Corey

    Isaiah 13, verses 15 and 16:
    “15 Whoever is captured will be thrust through;
    all who are caught will fall by the sword.
    16 Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes;
    their houses will be looted and their wives ravished.”

    That was from NIV! You can easyly find those verses (and many similar ones!) yourself.
    How is it possible to “misword” those verses?
    Please, enlighten me about HOW to understand/interpret them? God himself (according to NIV Bible) ordered masacre of children, raping of their mothers and robbing/burning of their homes.
    No way to misunderstand god’s dirct and detailed order!
    Cry and vomit!

  71. on 05 Jun 2010 at 11:06 am 71.Severin said …

    63 Corey
    „Over 1,600 years later, Genesis 8:15 records that a pair of each land-dwelling animal “wherein is the breath of life”—again including dinosaurs—were taken aboard an ark that would have held over 101,000 square feet of floor space. This ensured that a remnant would be preserved through the worldwide watery destruction that fossilized many pre-Flood dinosaurs.“

    Are you kidding us or yourself?

    Please, Corey, do not make people laughing at you!
    Do not make fool of yourself! Do not allow somebody to make you fool!

    101,000 sq feet is a surface having dimensions of 100 feet x 1,010 feet (it is something about 30.5 m x 308.05 m), or, if the boat seems to you too narrow that way, you can take it as 45 m x 208.5 m, or 55 m x 170.6 m, it gives always the same No. of sq feet or sq meters (some 9383.2 sq meters).
    A football playground (European football) is less than 7,500 sq meters or 80,729 sq feet!
    Now put a pair of tiranosaurus rex there (some 40 feet long, each), together with all other animals! They would eat them or masacre them all in matter of minutes.

    Forget the t. rex for a maoment, and put on 100,000 sq feet a pair of each:

    Argentinosaurus (130 feet/110 tons)
    Paralititan (114 feet, 80 tons)
    Diplodocus (92 feet, 60 tons)
    Brachinosaurus (43 feet)
    Sauroposeidon (59 feet)

    Etc, etc, some 1200 species of dinosaurus known today (fossils found).

    Then add SEVERAL TENS OF THOUSANDS of pairs of animals able to mate and have descendants ONLY within their own species: kengoroos, cows, horses, camels, lamas, sheep, goats, gazelles (MANY secies!),…..what about bees? If everything was flooded, HOW did bees survived? You think they were able to keep themselves in the air for 40 days? Ants? Hedgehogs? Rats? Beavers? Monkeys (many species!). Lemurs? Platypus? Koalas? Pigs? Tasmanian devil? Lions, tigers, wolfs, foxes, bears, armadillos, rhinoceros, elephants, hippopotamus, buffalos, polar bears, pandas, …..
    What about birds? You think they were able to fly for 40 days without landing anywhere?

    AND, of course, FOOD for all of them for 40 days!

    All on 100,000 sq feet?

    I think some 10,000,000 sq. Feet would NOT do the job!

    Ooops! I forgot god did not know anything about tasmanian devil and armadillo, coalas and pandas!

    He did not know anything about dinosaurs either!

  72. on 05 Jun 2010 at 11:07 am 72.Severin said …

    63 Corey
    And, of course, god AGAIN planned to spread the life all over the earth BY INCESTOUS MATING, after the flood!

    Didn’t he mention ONE PAIR OF EACH ANIMAL?
    He REPEATED his huge mistake made in Genesis AGAIN!

    My wife’s father, an SIMPLE, ALMOST ILLITERATE PEASANT, DID know that incestous mating among animals leads to degradation!
    My grandfather, who grew rabbits, knew it!

    God di not!

  73. on 05 Jun 2010 at 11:10 am 73.Severin said …

    63 Corey

    Then we have problems with height of water and breathing!

    Ararat is 5,615 m high (16,945 f.).

    If water was higher than Ararat, then all people and animals on Noah’s ark would have extreme problems with breathing! They would probably all die after several days of severe breathing troubles.
    God did not know hat?!
    Or, maybe he provided masks for all the people and animals on the ark?

    What about Mount Everest?
    Was it flooded too (8,884 m/29,029 feet).
    Probably not, because it was not discovered yet!

    Aconcagua could not be flooded, because Christopher Columbus did not discover Americas at biblical times, and god had no idea it axists.

    Please, Corey!

  74. on 05 Jun 2010 at 11:13 am 74.Severin said …

    I appologize to all for making a mess by placing my comments to wrong chapters!

  75. on 05 Jun 2010 at 1:20 pm 75.Severin said …

    63 Corey
    Finally, we have another two BIG problems with the “Big Flood”:

    1.
    To cover the entire earth to the height of the highest peak of Ararat (to forget M. Everest and Aconcagua for a moment!), water should rise in average more than 5,500 meters (5.5 km) from the sea level.

    The “violent rainfall” is defined as when it rains more than 50 mm/h (more than 50 liters per 1 sq meter per 1 hour).

    I will take the “big flood rain” to be 5 x as wiolent as the most violent rainfall ever, as 250 mm/h (which never happened, but we are talking god!).

    So, to cover Ararat, it should have been rained for 5,500,000 milimeters (5,500 meters) divided by 250 mm/h = 22,000 hours or 916.7 days, IF it rained at an impossible intensity of 250 mm/h! Just “a little bit” longer than described in the Bible! God made a mistake of magnitude of 23 TIMES (NOT 23%!).
    It would be the same as if you said you was 40 meters tall, then said: oops, I made a small mistake, I ment 1.8 meters!

    To flood the earth in 40 days, god would need a rain able to fall at intensity of 5,729 mm/h (5.729 meters/h) all 40 days and nights, which is some 114,5 x stronger than “violent rain”, and some 30 x stronger than “biblical rain” I invented for you! It is almost 1 mm per second, or 1 liter per SECOND per sq meter.
    The mistake is similar to one if you said you were 206 meters tall, then said ooops…

    But, EVEN BIGGER PROBLEM exists!

    It is estimated that total quantity of water on earth does not exceed some 1,400,000,000 cubic kilometers.
    You can deny such estimations, but whatever you say, they are VERY accurate. The real quantity of water on earth does NOT differ from this estimation more than + or – 10%, probably even much less than that.
    This estimation includes ALL the water on earth: oceans, seas, rivers, lakes, polar caps, Greenland ice… AND humidity trapped in the air.

    To flood the entire earth to the height of 5,500 m (Ararat), we need some ADDITIONAL 2.8 billion cubic kilometers of water, which is DOUBLE of the total quantity of water present on the entire earth.

    EVERYTHING is VERY WRONG with the BF legend:
    - size of the ark, underestimated for some 1 million times (too little!)
    - number of animals to be saved and room/food for them for 40 days (underestimated for some 100,000 times)
    - incestous mating planned for re-spreading of life over the earth
    - quantity of water available to flood the earth to the height mentioned in Bible (underestimated for 2 times)
    - time necessary to flood the earth to that height, at an ENORMEOUS (probably impossible) raing rate (underestimated for at least 30 times).
    ….
    It just COULD NOT OCCURE the way described in the Bible.

  76. on 05 Jun 2010 at 3:27 pm 76.Corey said …

    The earth is covered with layers of sedimentary rock, much of it containing microscopic fossils such as plankton, pollen, and spores.

    The entire record of visible fossils consists mainly of marine invertebrates (animals without a backbone), including clams, jellyfish, and coral. What is surprising is that these ocean creatures are found primarily on the continents and rarely in the deep ocean basins. More clam shells are found on mountain peaks than under the ocean floor.

    From the bottom layers to the top layers, most fossils are marine creatures. The upper levels do have an increasing number of vertebrates, such as fish and amphibians, reptiles, and mammals, but the fossils at the bottom levels are equally as complex as any animal today.

    All fossil types appear suddenly, fully formed and fully functional, without less complex ancestors under them.

    The fossil record is strong evidence for the sudden appearance of life by creation, followed by rapid burial during a global flood.

    How can it be that scientists have found fossils on mountain peaks if there hadn’t been a major flood? Look at the facts! God is all powerful! He can flood the whole earth if he wanted to because he’s God!! Also, a very logical way to contradict the breathing problems that they should’ve had is this: Water, being more solid than air, would force the air upward as the water rose; therefore, higher altitudes would be more oxygenated than usual, which would allow them to breathe.

    As for incest, God did not put his laws on animals. Animals could mate freely as they wanted. And i believe that I am correct in saying that Noah also brought his wife, children, and his son’s wives to keep the family line from disappearing. There is no incest acknowledgeable during the flood.

    According to the Bible, the Ark had three decks (floors). It is not difficult to show that there was plenty of room for 16,000 animals (the maximum number of animals on the Ark, if the most liberal approach to counting animals is applied), assuming they required approximately the same floor space as animals in typical farm enclosures and laboratories. The vast majority of the creatures (birds, reptiles, and mammals) were small (the largest only a few hundred pounds of body weight). What’s more, many could have been housed in groups, which would have further reduced the required space.

    It is still necessary to take account of the floor spaces required by large animals, such as elephants and rhinos. But even these, collectively, do not require a large area because it is most likely that these animals were young, but not newborns. Even the largest dinosaurs were relatively small when only a few years old.

    And for Isaiah 13, God destroyed the entire city to keep the spread of destruction at a minimum. Babylon was a very sinful city. God’s law were still in full effect among all of these nations because Jesus had not died for everyone’s sins yet. You forgot to mention all the sexual impurities, stealing, lying, killing, etc that went on in that city. Everyone and everything in Babylon was corrupted by sin in one way or another.

  77. on 05 Jun 2010 at 6:32 pm 77.Observer said …

    Poor Corey- You really do not have a handle on anything related to Earth Science. That fossils on mountains seems to imply a flood is frankly quite sad. You need to learn a bit about our planet.

    Here is the best freshman textbook. It is easy and self-contained with minimal requirements in math, physics, and chemistry. It is very long on concepts.

    http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Earth-John-Grotzinger/dp/0716766825/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1275762519&sr=8-1

    You might be able to get a used one. This will be a bit more gentle on your pocketbook. But, as this is a science text, you should not go back more than one edition, remember, this is science so it advances. It is also not an unreasonable investment in yourself.

  78. on 05 Jun 2010 at 6:41 pm 78.Corey said …

    hahaha, those words that I have written are there thanks to the Institute of Creation Research, not my supposed “inexperience.” I am pretty sure they have more of a grasp on the stuff than either of us do. I see that all you and 3d and severin can throw at me are snide remarks. Does this mean you have no more supporting evidence?

  79. on 05 Jun 2010 at 7:13 pm 79.Severin said …

    76 Corey
    „What is surprising is that these ocean creatures are found primarily on the continents and rarely in the deep ocean basins. More clam shells are found on mountain peaks than under the ocean floor.“

    It is surprising only to people who do not know (or DO NOT WANT TO KNOW!) anything about moving and colliding of continets, wrinkled mountains and subduction of tectonic plates . Look at the geographic cards, and notice how perfectly most contours of continent fit toogether.
    Shells, corals and other SEA animal fossils found in high mountains tell us that those areas were sea bottoms in the past. Of course, in the VERY far past, MUCH further than 6000 years.

    You said, correctly, that those fossils were SEA animals. Did they grow in unsalty big flood rain water?

    They all developed during 40 days of flood? Or maybe god let solty rains to drop during the big flood?

  80. on 05 Jun 2010 at 7:21 pm 80.Observer said …

    Corey- I am more qualified academically than anyone at the Institute for Creation Research. I am not more qualified to discuss the Earth than Grotzinger at Caltech, or Siever emeritus (dec. 2004) from Harvard. Hence the reference above- it was extended to you as a (much needed) helping hand. The ICR folks are neither educated, nor particularly intelligent, although I will admit intelligence is difficult to define. You are wasting your time, and hence your life with those clowns. They are parasites.

  81. on 05 Jun 2010 at 7:38 pm 81.Severin said …

    76 Corey
    “How can it be that scientists have found fossils on mountain peaks if there hadn’t been a major flood?”

    Again: how is it possible to find “these ocean creatures” (your words!) residues of a big flood which was ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE TO BE SALTY. If it rained for 40 days, there is no chance it was a salty rain!

    “According to the Bible, the Ark had three decks (floors).”
    I did not realize you were SO bad in math! 3 x 101,000 sq feet is 303,000 sq feet, some 3 football playgrounds. VERY unlikely that Noah was able to build such a big boat, but: PUT 16,000 animals, including dinosaurs, as you claimed in #63, on 3 football playgrounds, AND try to calculate how many food they needed for 40 days, using the most “liberal” method you can imagine. Even if you find enough room for them and their food, yoi would need an army of people to clean the boat of their shit.

    But, excuse me: WHY should anyone be LIBERAL with biblical texts? YOU and your techers claim the Bible is the TRUTH, and nothing “liberal” can be applied on the truth!
    Something Is or IS NOT the truth, and it applies to Bible as to everything alse.
    Either Bible IS the truth, or it IS NOT!
    Shall we start to BARGAIN about the statements in the Bible, to make them fit reality?

  82. on 05 Jun 2010 at 7:49 pm 82.Severin said …

    Corey
    “Water, being more solid than air, would force the air upward as the water rose; therefore, higher altitudes would be more oxygenated than usual, which would allow them to breathe.”

    You are right, I was wrong in that detail. It would most certainly happen that way IF god had enough water for big flood.

  83. on 05 Jun 2010 at 7:53 pm 83.Severin said …

    Corey
    Water is more dense than air, not more “solid”.
    Do not take it as malicious, please.

  84. on 05 Jun 2010 at 7:57 pm 84.Severin said …

    Corey
    “As for incest, God did not put his laws on animals.”

    I did not talk about god’s laws, and I do not cre for them. All his laws I knoW were TERIFYING.

    What I said was: he did not know what every farmer knows about inbreeding. Laws or no laws, inbreeding leads to destruction of species and your god DID NOT KNOW IT.

  85. on 05 Jun 2010 at 8:54 pm 85.Severin said …

    Corey
    “And for Isaiah 13, God destroyed the entire city to keep the spread of destruction at a minimum. Babylon was a very sinful city. God’s law were still in full effect among all of these nations because Jesus had not died for everyone’s sins yet. You forgot to mention all the sexual impurities, stealing, lying, killing, etc that went on in that city. Everyone and everything in Babylon was corrupted by sin in one way or another.”

    I just HAD to copy this whole part to make YOU read it again!
    Do you understand what you wrote?
    YOU are listing EXCUSES for god’s crimes!
    He masacred children, because HIS LAW WAS STILL IN FULL EFFECT…
    Why did he bring such lunatic laws, you did not say!
    What normal person/creature would bring such laws?

    YOU said:”Look at the facts! God is all powerful! He can flood the whole earth if he wanted to because he’s God!!”

    So, when you are looking for excuses for inconsistancies in the Bible, god is powerfull, he is god! He can do ANYTHING!
    When making laws, what becames he? A blod thirsty lunatic maniac!
    In THAT case he is not able to invent methods to discipline the crowd without killing.
    A powerfull god COULD flood the whole earth but could NOT invent less bestial, but still effective punishment methods.
    A „look at the fact“ god, an all mighty and all loving one, SHOULD find something like this: anyone doing „sins“ against his laws, shall feel strong, unbearable pain, duration of which would be in accordance with sin.
    Less cruel, and very effective!
    But your god LIKED the smell of blood, as he liked the smell of burnt meat.

    WHAT are “sins” that deserves children to be mascred for?
    WHAT “sins” of „stealing and lying“ deserve death of innocent children before eyes of their parents?
    WHAT „sexual impurities“ are healed by raping of women (ordered by god)?
    WHAT “sin”, “one way or another” deserves punishment that includes killing of babies before eyes of their parents, masacring of war prisoniers, raping of women, burning of their homes?

    Even if it comes from a god, it is TOO MUCH!

    Shame on you if you are able to find excuses for ANYONE for such crimes, be it a god or not.
    DIRTY!
    Phoey!

  86. on 05 Jun 2010 at 11:45 pm 86.Corey said …

    Severin, did you ever think that those animals died because the water? I guess not. If you read through another one of my posts, you will see that I stated that all deaths were very rapid. Once again, he can’t be a god if he isn’t all-knowing. He knows what every farmer from here to the end of time thinks.

    God created us, he has the right to remove us if we don’t treat his gift of life with respect.

    Look at the facts man!!!

    God raised and destroyed kingdoms like Babylon to bring about his unfailing plan in Christ, as prophecy foretold.

    God has always had a plan, and it has come to pass just as he willed.

    God sometimes let people know details of his plan well in advance

    Take for example Jeremiah’s prophecy that the Babylonian exile would last seventy years, and Isiaiah’s giving the name Cyrus (200 years in advance) to the man who would set the exiles free.

    God raised up kingdoms and destroyed kingdoms, as he did Babylon.

    God also preserved the remnant of his people Israel. He did all these things to achieve his plan regarding Christ.

  87. on 06 Jun 2010 at 7:09 am 87.Severin said …

    Sorry, Corey, “arguments” your teachers repeat through you are far below my level. I am not going to discuss with an organized “Institute of nonsenses and stupidity” via your back.

    Don’t you see your teachers are repeating themselves?
    Don’t you see they just avoid to discuss SOME arguments, and isnsist to repeat other ones?

    I am not asking anything, but YOU better ask THEM to explain to YOU: WHY your/their god did not invent some less cruel and more effective method of punishing/disciplining people for their “sins”?
    WHY he had to masacre babies to discipline them?
    WHAT a bloody god was it?
    He was “allmighty”, but unable to make people to obey him without masacring them and their children.

    ASK your techers WHERE did god find all the water necessary for the BF.
    I guess, the answer will be: he was an allmighty, it was not a problem for him.
    BUT, it was the big problem for him to discipline his believers in a more human way than described in the Bible!

    Ask them how is it possible to find fossils of sea creatures in unsalty water?

    Please do NOT answer me, keep their answers for yourself and THINK, READ, LEARN!

    Finally, ask them WHY did god create dinosaurs? To just kill them all after a few thousands of years?

    If it would not be sad, it would be ridiculous.

  88. on 20 Jun 2010 at 5:12 pm 88.Martin said …

    This blog was just TORTURE, I mean some of you who are debating the existence of god, actually made my head hurt. Your Circular Logic is so obvious, your words, most of them without even needing thought, can so easily be disputed and debunked. OUCH!!!!

    As for this site, it is an atheist site, it is not here to convert you, you are FREE, perhaps by god’s freewill, to leave and not read what is here. This site is about raising consciencness, awareness for the atheist who is seeking a voice, answers in a religious world without them.

    Too often religions, particularly Christianity, are given a “free pass” by society in that we must be respectful and courteous. This “free pass” in turn seems to empower Christians with the “god given right” to bully atheists into reverting back to their belief systems and this bullying is evident throughout this site and through the “rational” rantings of many of those here who proclaim faith. Religion is an emotional topic, it is fraught with fundamentalism, and too often those of faith confuse their fundamentalism with the atheist view that we have a passion that is open to change, when we are given proof.

  89. on 13 Jul 2010 at 11:33 pm 89.TruthSeeker said …

    There was a flood. The Persian Gulf and Black Sea were inland areas like the Dead Sea and Death Valley are today. When the sea level rose, it flooded those 2 areas bringing them to the level they are today. Any primitive person living in that area, (or like minded) would have lost everything including their ‘world.’ So when they told it to their descendants, ‘the entire world’ flooded.
    Perception… and understanding primitive man’s frame of reference. ex. Atlantis may have had ‘advanced technology’ at the time, but in today’s perspective, they were primitive. Ancient Rome was more advanced than ‘Atlantis.’
    Also they believed, “Bad things happened to bad people and good things happened to good people.” Like Adolf Hitler, they believed they were singled out by ‘God’ because they survived a disaster. We all know what a delusional-homicidal-sociopath Hitler was, yet people think it’s different for everyone else.
    The Bible says Disasters are God’s judgements, for God to punish the wicked and test the faithful. Today we call them ‘Natural Disasters’ and provide ‘Humanatarian Aid’ because today we know ‘God’ has nothing to do with either.

Trackback This Post | Subscribe to the comments through RSS Feed

Leave a Reply