Feed on Posts or Comments 30 October 2014

Christianity &Science Thomas on 06 May 2010 12:57 am

What a shoddy piece of work is man

Anyone who looks objectively at the human body, or the human genome, sees thousands of flaws and problems:

What a shoddy piece of work is man:

Whether or not that is so, the human body is certainly no masterpiece of intelligent planning. The eye’s retina, for instance, is wired back to front so that the wiring has to pass back through the screen of light receptors, imposing a blind spot.

Now John Avise, an evolutionary geneticist at the University of California at Irvine, has catalogued the array of clumsy flaws and inefficiencies at the fundamental level of the genome. His paper, published this week in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA1, throws down the gauntlet to advocates of Intelligent design, the pseudo-scientific face of religious creationism. What Intelligent Designer, Avise asks, would make such a botch?

What Intelligent Designer would make such a botch? Indeed.

110 Responses to “What a shoddy piece of work is man”

  1. on 07 May 2010 at 4:52 pm 1.3D said …

    This is another example of how atheism presents a more positive view of the universe than theism.

    If you look at the human body through the lens of evolution, it’s amazing; even with all its flaws, considering the circumstances and hostile environment through which it took shape, it’s a wonderful and efficient machine.

    But if you look at it through the POV that an intelligent creator designed it to be the way it is, then it’s a jumbled up mess. 21st century engineers could build a much more efficient body and reproductive scheme than the creator of the universe came up with. It means the creator is an idiot, or likes watching us deteriorate and fall apart. What a depressing worldview.

  2. on 07 May 2010 at 5:13 pm 2.Lou said …

    “21st century engineers could build a much more efficient body and reproductive scheme than the creator of the universe came up with.”

    Ha ha ha, that is about the funniest thing I have read in a while. Thanks! Man cannot come close to building anything like the human body. We cannot even produce a heart that is as efficient as the one given us by the creator. And where do you get this idea it is not without flaws? It is not suppose to last forever Einstein.

    Outstanding :)

  3. on 12 May 2010 at 6:39 am 3.Crystal said …

    What about the fact that at a certain point in embryonic development we all have a long tail, gills, a coat of fur and are indistinguishable from a house cat or a chicken embryo(among others)? As as a medical student I agree with the author. Do you have any idea how closely we are related not only to monkeys, but mice and pigs? You would be humbled by what you discover if you were inquisitive enough to find out, instead of swallowing the tripe you’ve been fed by your religion. Dismissing the evidence and calling it ‘god’ is simply lazy and an abdication of responsibility to your education about the world and your place in it.

    Lou, I don’t think you quite understand what 3D was talking about. He’s saying that our construction is too shoddy to have been designed. If we had been, we wouldn’t have as many problems and flaws with our bodies. I for one am not impressed with his craftsmanship if we were in fact designed, which I highly doubt.

    As for what we can and can’t accomplish…scientist are on the verge of producing an artificial pancreas to replace insulin pumps.It’s really quite exciting.

  4. on 12 May 2010 at 11:23 pm 4.Anonymous said …

    God created Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve were made perfect in God’s image. Since then, humans have created humans. because of Adam and Eve’s sin, which was the first flaw with the human race, humanity has had imperfections. You may try to argue my statement by saying that God creates every life, but this is false because humans create humans through the law of biogenesis and God only breathes His breath of life into each human being. In other words, God gives each human being a soul. What man has done with itself is the cause of all the world’s problems. We created imperfections through sin which was created by man and not God. Also, my name is Corey and I’m 17, and my religion class and I are planning on refuting every single one of your proofs to why God is imaginary.

  5. on 12 May 2010 at 11:46 pm 5.Anonymous said …

    Hey Corey, do you plan on posting your rebuttals in the forums?

  6. on 13 May 2010 at 12:54 am 6.3D said …

    4.Anonymous said …

    God created Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve were made perfect in God’s image. Since then, humans have created humans. because of Adam and Eve’s sin, which was the first flaw with the human race, humanity has had imperfections. You may try to argue my statement by saying that God creates every life, but this is false because humans create humans through the law of biogenesis and God only breathes His breath of life into each human being.

    I wish theists could all agree on something once in a while. In the other thread, some guy was talking about how humans don’t create life, when they knock someone up. Now, they do.

    Good thing the Bible is so clear and direct, and everyone who believes in it has a direct pipeline to God so there’s no variance in what they believe in, whatsoever!

    In other words, God gives each human being a soul. What man has done with itself is the cause of all the world’s problems. We created imperfections through sin which was created by man and not God.

    Actually no, God did create evil. (At least, that’s what the Bible says….)

    “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” — Isaiah 45:7

    Also, my name is Corey and I’m 17, and my religion class and I are planning on refuting every single one of your proofs to why God is imaginary.

    Good luck! So far you’re 0 for 2, but it’s only the first inning. Keep plugging!

  7. on 13 May 2010 at 1:26 am 7.Anonymous said …

    I am not every Theist. And on many occasion, Theists do disagree with each other, but for the most part, everyone is in the same boat on many subjects. I cannot speak for other Theists, but what I have typed, I know to be true because I study Theism and have formed the best possible answers for such.

    Secondly, God did not purposely create evil. Evil comes with Good. Read this passage that I have found on the internet and maybe you will clearly understand where evil comes from. In the end, humans were the ones who made the choice to do evil, not God.

    At first it might seem that if God created all things, then evil must have been created by God. However, evil is not a “thing” like a rock or electricity. You cannot have a jar of evil. Evil has no existence of its own; it is really the absence of good. For example, holes are real but they only exist in something else. We call the absence of dirt a hole, but it cannot be separated from the dirt. So when God created, it is true that all He created was good. One of the good things God made was creatures who had the freedom to choose good. In order to have a real choice, God had to allow there to be something besides good to choose. So, God allowed these free angels and humans to choose good or reject good (evil). When a bad relationship exists between two good things we call that evil, but it does not become a “thing” that required God to create it.

  8. on 13 May 2010 at 1:28 am 8.Anonymous said …

    and also for the second post, my class and I are planning on creating our own website to prove false the fifty statements on the website godisimaginary.com

  9. on 13 May 2010 at 3:01 am 9.MrQ said …

    Hey, Corey, 17, let’s get the festivities started.
    Is your God an Omnimax deity? That is to say omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent? Knows all (past and present), is able to do anything at will, and is found everywhere?

  10. on 13 May 2010 at 3:25 am 10.Common Sense said …

    “At first it might seem that if God created all things, then evil must have been created by God. However, evil is not a “thing” like a rock or electricity. You cannot have a jar of evil. Evil has no existence of its own; it is really the absence of good……..So when God created, it is true that all He created was good.”

    So what you are saying is that God created “good”, but God can only create “things”, and “evil” is not a thing, but good is? Makes perfect sense.

  11. on 13 May 2010 at 5:16 am 11.A real-ist said …

    “my class and I are planning on creating our own website to prove false the fifty statements on the website godisimaginary.com”

    I can’t wait until this comes out! I could use a good laugh.

  12. on 13 May 2010 at 11:46 am 12.Corey said …

    To mr. Q, yes God is all of those. One thing you forgot to leave out though is that he knows the future as well. God knows when the world will end and therefore knows how the future will play out.

    and to a real-ist:

    you can laugh all you want because in the end that’s all you will be able to do when you have know more points to prove or faulty arguments to try and defend yourself with. Have a nice day.

  13. on 13 May 2010 at 12:09 pm 13.Anonymous said …

    Why did he create humans knowing millions of them would be damned to hell?

  14. on 13 May 2010 at 12:47 pm 14.Corey said …

    He created humans to give them the opportunity to join him in heaven. He also created humans with the right to decide their fate so they wouldn’t be damned to his rule.Remember that God originally created humans to be good, but he didn’t want to enslave them by giving them one choice, so when he created good, he also had to allow them the right to choose to reject good (do evil). And as stated above, he didn’t create evil, evil is something that comes with good. Humans have sealed their own fate by original sin, which was created by humans and not God.

  15. on 13 May 2010 at 1:25 pm 15.MrQ said …

    Corey,
    I see that God also knows the future. Does that mean that he knows the fate that each one of us will befall? If he knows the future, this would appear to be so.

  16. on 13 May 2010 at 3:30 pm 16.Corey said …

    Yes, he does know our future, but once again, God gave us the right to choose our own future, and our future can change according to how we view life and the universe itself. Therefore, the future is always changing, but nevertheless, God sees every change that it makes. for example, a man can not believe in God and God can see that he is heading down the wrong path. If the man changes his path and follows Gods word, then God can also see that change as well.

  17. on 13 May 2010 at 3:40 pm 17.i believe in harrypotter said …

    is this the harry potter fansite?

  18. on 13 May 2010 at 3:43 pm 18.3D said …

    14.Corey said …
    He created humans to give them the opportunity to join him in heaven. He also created humans with the right to decide their fate so they wouldn’t be damned to his rule.

    So now, they can choose to be (a) damned to being tortured in hell, or (b) electing to be damned to his rule. And there’s no (c).

    I guess with God, you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t!

    Remember that God originally created humans to be good, but he didn’t want to enslave them by giving them one choice, so when he created good, he also had to allow them the right to choose to reject good (do evil). And as stated above, he didn’t create evil, evil is something that comes with good.

    And, as I stated above, you are wrong. God created evil. Read your Bible!

    “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” — Isaiah 45:7

    This is going to be an unproductive debate, if you just keep posting the talking points that your pastor told you to say. Try to think for yourself and respond to what your friendly opponents post here! We are not against you, we want you to think! We want Lou and Horatio to think too, but they are too far gone over the cliff.

    So, if God did not create evil, why does the Bible say God created evil? Is the Bible wrong?

  19. on 13 May 2010 at 3:44 pm 19.i believe in harrypotter said …

    no swearing!

  20. on 13 May 2010 at 3:48 pm 20.Twilight4ever said …

    HARRY POTTER IS TOTALLY RIGHT
    NO SWEARING ALLOWED ESAY

  21. on 13 May 2010 at 3:50 pm 21.i believe in harrypotter said …

    I believe that witchcraft is good! poop

  22. on 13 May 2010 at 4:04 pm 22.3D said …

    7.Anonymous (Corey) said …
    I am not every Theist. And on many occasion, Theists do disagree with each other, but for the most part, everyone is in the same boat on many subjects.

    Oh, that’s awesome! Someone should send the memo to the Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland, and the Sunni and Shia in the Middle East. Because they keep blowing each other up. But they probably just didn’t get the e-mail that they are all really in the same boat.

    Secondly, God did not purposely create evil. Evil comes with Good. Read this passage that I have found on the internet and maybe you will clearly understand where evil comes from. In the end, humans were the ones who made the choice to do evil, not God.

    I think it might be better if you read this passage from the BIBLE, where God says he created evil:

    “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” — Isaiah 45:7

    Seems to me that the Bible might be a better source for Christian theological concepts than Guy On The Internet. Am I right?

    At first it might seem that if God created all things, then evil must have been created by God. However, evil is not a “thing” like a rock or electricity. You cannot have a jar of evil. Evil has no existence of its own; it is really the absence of good.

    So good is a ‘thing’ like a rock or electricity? You can have a jar of good?

    For example, holes are real but they only exist in something else. We call the absence of dirt a hole, but it cannot be separated from the dirt. So when God created, it is true that all He created was good.

    Of course, in your previous post, you said that humans created evil. So now, if we put that together with what you’re saying now (God can’t create evil), you’re saying that humans had the power to create something that God didn’t create. Really? Humans can do something that God is powerless to do?

    You must be reading a different Bible than everyone else, because the one I am looking at says:

    “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” — Isaiah 45:7

    Is the Bible wrong? Or do you just believe in God and not the Bible? Which is it?

  23. on 13 May 2010 at 4:10 pm 23.MrQ said …

    Corey,
    You state that your God knows the future and in the same breath you say “the future is always changing, but nevertheless, God sees every change that it makes.”

    So, what is it? Does God know the future or not? You seem to suggest He sees the present moment and the changes in our lives at the moment but God, like all of us, has no idea what will happen in the future. The logic of your argument is not consistent. God either knows the future or he does not. What is it?

  24. on 13 May 2010 at 8:25 pm 24.Corey said …

    What you don’t understand is that God gives humans the right to choose, right? Do you have the right to choose what you want to believe in and how you want to live your life? yes you do. God does not force anyone to live by his rule, that why he gave humans the ability to choose between good and evil. What I mean by God allowing them to choose has nothing to do with hell.

    Concerning being damned to heaven and being damned to hell being the same, they’re only the same in the same way as being electrocuted for wrong doing and being rewarded with an ice cream cone (your favorite flavor of course) for performing a kindness in secret are the same thing. Our choosing happens strictly here on earth. We can choose to follow Gods word and be faithful so we can have eternal life after our death here on earth, or we can choose to stray away from Gods word and sin and face eternal fire after our death. Do not confuse what happens here on earth with what will happen in the afterlife. Once someone gets to heaven, the possibilities are endless. Also, for someone who doesn’t believe in God, why do you put so much emphasis on the bible? just asking…

    The way I infer Isaiah 45:7 is such:

    God only wished to make good, but in doing so he created evil. He never wanted there to be evil but in order to give man the ability to choose, he had to allow it. God didn’t first handedly create evil, it first occurred through lucifer’s rebellion against god’s goodness for selfish reasons. he manipulated 1/3 of heaven’s population of angels.

    To mr. Q:

    Concerning the future, we are only limited by our three spectrums of life; past, present, and future. God has freedom to travel these conditions without limit for every individual all at the same time. His insights into our future do not cause him to manipulate our current affairs unless we ask him to collaborate in our choices. Otherwise, we take our future fate upon ourselves, which is not god’s problem.

  25. on 13 May 2010 at 8:51 pm 25.Anonymous said …

    Are you sure you aren’t god Corey? Or maybe he tells you his secrets through prayer?
    You seem to know quite a lot about him.

  26. on 13 May 2010 at 8:59 pm 26.Corey said …

    you say I think I’m God like that’s a bad thing!

    No, I’m not God, but if you open your fucking eyes to God’s truth, you might realize that everything’s not exactly how you picture it.

  27. on 13 May 2010 at 9:00 pm 27.3D said …

    24.Corey said …
    What you don’t understand is that God gives humans the right to choose, right? Do you have the right to choose what you want to believe in and how you want to live your life? yes you do. God does not force anyone to live by his rule, that why he gave humans the ability to choose between good and evil. What I mean by God allowing them to choose has nothing to do with hell.

    Yes it does. If they choose wrong, they go to hell.

    That’s not really a ‘choice’. It’s coercion. It’s like if someone points a gun at your head, and says ‘give me your wallet or die.’ Would you say the robber is offering you a fair choice?

    Also, for someone who doesn’t believe in God, why do you put so much emphasis on the bible? just asking…

    I don’t put any emphasis on it. I think the Bible is nonsense.

    But you claim to believe in it. So, I’m quoting it, to show you in writing that what you are posting here is contradicted by the Bible.

    And then I’m asking you (without much success so far) where you get your beliefs from; certainly not from the Bible.

    The way I infer Isaiah 45:7 is such:
    God only wished to make good, but in doing so he created evil. He never wanted there to be evil but in order to give man the ability to choose, he had to allow it.

    Oh! I see, thanks for clarifying. So you interpreted that verse as “God made good, and then God made an OOPSIE! and evil happened.”

    That’s one way to look at it, I guess. But then we have to take that interpretation in tandem with your later claim that God knows all future outcomes. So, he knew that the creation of evil would be a necessary consequence of creating good, and still did it; therefore, you have to admit, he knowingly chose to create evil.

    And really, this isn’t a very good argument, because GOD MAKES THE RULES. He could very easily say, “there will be good, and no evil.” Or “there will be evil and no good.” Or, “there will be no evil and no good.” Or, anything he wants.

    He can do anything. He chose to make things the way they are, because he can do anything. So any argument that he was powerless to do something, or ‘he had no choice’ but to do something, is meaningless. Either it’s a bad argument, or you’re admitting God isn’t all powerful.

  28. on 13 May 2010 at 9:37 pm 28.Anonymous said …

    26.Corey said …
    No, I’m not God, but if you open your fucking eyes to God’s truth, you might realize that everything’s not exactly how you picture it.
    Do you really need to use that language?
    I’ve read your statement several times and I still don’t understand what you are trying to say. Could you please explain your statement?

    As 3D said, if God is all powerful and all knowing, then God saw what was going to happen to humans (they were going to disobey him, and then condemned to hell), and saw that he was going to create evil. If God is all powerful he would be able to stop this from happening.

  29. on 13 May 2010 at 9:39 pm 29.Corey said …

    How you interpret good and evil is strictly encased in your bias. Is man good or is man evil? There is only one person who can make that decision and it is God! God made man good and gave them the right to choose good or not choose good. God created a balance of options so is to not manipulate man’s choices.. The outcomes of mens’ choices are not god’s fault.

    And about the ‘man with the gun’ theory, either way the man is going to take your wallet. If you choose the easy way out and give him your wallet, that still permits him the opportunity to shoot you and get away with what he wanted in the first place without you being a witness. also, if he chooses not to shoot you, you’ve allowed him to steal without direct consequence. If you tell him to “screw off!” he is still gonna shoot you and take your wallet, but he has your blood on his hands, and with that, he will most certainly get caught. you, being a christian person per say, will go to heaven for doing the right thing instead of the easy thing. the third option is defend yourself, wound him, ask him why, and if he really needed money to support his family or some such similar case, then willingly give him what he wants. If he is doing it for selfish reasons, then leave him sitting there wondering wtf just happened.

    One thing I don’t understand is that you blatantly admit that god is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent in your argument. If you don’t believe in God, how can you declare something other than you believe in as part of your argument.

  30. on 13 May 2010 at 9:40 pm 30.Corey said …

    How can you prove something you believe not to be true with something you believe not to be true? you don’t make any sense, whatsoever!!!!!!!!!

  31. on 13 May 2010 at 9:51 pm 31.Corey said …

    God tempers his power with his commitment to our free will. God didn’t create us to be his puppets! He allowed us to choose our own fate.

    3D said:

    So now, they can choose to be (a) damned to being tortured in hell, or (b) electing to be damned to his rule. And there’s no (c).
    I guess with God, you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t!

    At the end of each person’s life, it will always come down to two options, and mind you, that’s one more option than most other world views give you. You can choose life through God or you can choose death.

  32. on 13 May 2010 at 10:35 pm 32.Anonymous said …

    You said that your god is an omnimax god.
    We are simply using a reductio ad absurdum argument.
    I suggest you study logic and debate before you attempt to refute the GodIsImaginary proofs.

  33. on 14 May 2010 at 12:48 am 33.Corey said …

    I am not the only one refuting these proofs, but I am simply refuting these arguments in which i don’t believe to better my education in logical arguments. Even if I do lose in some of these arguments, it doesn’t exactly mean I’m wrong, it just means that I am not educated enough to keep up with the big dogs that have been doing this for years. As for right now, I believe that I am doing a great job in keeping up with all of you and I have not seen a statement yet that has made my faith in God waver. Also, I will admit, I have made a few wrong statements that I wish I could’ve taken back, but that just shows that I’m a freshie at all of this. Nevertheless, I won’t give up on fighting for the Theistic view.

  34. on 14 May 2010 at 12:51 am 34.Corey said …

    And for the record, you don’t need logic to refute a proof. All of the proofs in his page can be refuted with reason and biblical knowledge.

  35. on 14 May 2010 at 12:59 am 35.MrQ said …

    Corey,
    “We are only limited by our three spectrums of life; past, present, and future. God has freedom to travel these conditions without limit for every individual all at the same time.”
    So He is a time shifter and knows what my decisions will inevitably be? Or is the future “continually changing”, as you suggested, making it unknowable to us as well as God? I just don’t get it. If God can go into the future, then He knows exactly how I will behave, as well as how everyone else. Either the future is not changing and God knows what’s coming down, or the future is “continually changing” in which case it’s a mystery to God and me.

    “His insights into our future do not cause him to manipulate our current affairs unless we ask him to collaborate in our choices.”
    But he knows if I will pray to Him for guidance because he knows the future, correct? He also knows about the Muslim that is strapping a bomb to his body and the Priest, his earth bound representative, that is about to go down on a young boy. Yet chooses to do NOTHING.
    And that busload of Christians that went off the cliff, they all prayed hard for safe passage home. I know, they’re in a better place now.

    “Otherwise, we take our future fate upon ourselves, which is not god’s problem.”
    Your logic has me quite baffled. I do agree with this last sentence. Ultimately, each of us decides on our course through life and nobody, God nor us, knows the road we will take. Only that it will have an end.

    Corey, if you are 17, then I would suggest if you want to remain true to the faith that you do so without the need of an ark, a burial cloth, or reassurances from those spouting Intelligent Design. It is FAITH after all and does not need to be logical to remain true to you.

  36. on 14 May 2010 at 1:23 am 36.Corey said …

    Like I said in my above statement, I have said some things that I later have come to regret. When I said that, I was speaking more out of anger than anything else. And when I realized that, I talked to my pastor and mentor and the both said the same thing, God can see everything in the future, present, and past. Sorry for my screw up.

    God chooses to do nothing because the armageddon is coming. Not only that, what comes after death is so much better than what earthly pleasure can offer us. Those who are faithful to God will experience his awesomeness in heaven after there death.

    This is where I have to contradict myself. Like I said earlier, God can see anything and everything that will happen in the future; therefore, he can see the road that we are taking and the road that we will take in the future. Also, you contradicted yourself in this same manner because, at first, you were questioning me about whether God could see the future or not, and now you are saying that he can’t see the future until we make our move. But he knows every move that we will make in the future; therefore, he knows where we will end up. Sorry for the inconvenience from my inexperience.

  37. on 14 May 2010 at 1:43 am 37.A real-ist said …

    Corey,
    I laugh when I read your posts. You think you really know that a God is out there and knows the future. How do you know this? Did you speak to him and he told you? Or did other delusional humans tell you? Do you get it from the bible? Have you actually read the whole bible and not just picked out parts to your liking?

    Here is a question for you since you think we have only two choices, to believe and go to heaven or not believe and not go to heaven. What happens to babies who never got a chance to believe and happen to die? What about people who were raised not to believe and not given the chance to believe? Is it their fault and they should be punished?

    “And for the record, you don’t need logic to refute a proof. All of the proofs in his page can be refuted with reason and biblical knowledge.”

    Reason is a type of thought. The word Logic involves the attempt to describe rules by which reason operates, so that orderly reasoning can be taught.

    Biblical knowledge? Explain the beginning when God created light one day, and then the sun the next. Or have you not paid attention to parts like that? By saying someone has biblical knowledge is like saying someone has knowledge of fairy tales and fictional writings. How does that prove anything?

  38. on 14 May 2010 at 1:55 am 38.A real-ist said …

    “Those who are faithful to God will experience his awesomeness in heaven after there death.”

    I can’t wait to see the expression on your face when you realize there is no heaven. Oh, wait, you won’t have an expression because you won’t exist anymore.

    You know what would be really easy is if God appeared in present day for real and everyone saw him for real, then there wouldn’t be any questions to his existence. Everyone would believe and everyone would go to heaven. Why does he need to hide?

    “God chooses to do nothing because the armageddon is coming.”

    Actually, I think the move with Bruce Willis has already been out.

    “What comes after death is so much better than what earthly pleasure can offer us.”

    Maybe only if we get 72 virgins.

    “This is where I have to contradict myself……..Sorry for the inconvenience from my inexperience.”

    Hmmm…..sounds like you are just making things up on the fly to make your belief sound correct. Keep telling yourself those things. The more you tell yourself something the more you think it is true….God is great…..God is great…God is great…..keep repeating that.

  39. on 14 May 2010 at 2:33 am 39.Corey said …

    I can honestly say that no, I haven’t read every single piece of the bible, but I have been taught the most important parts of the bible since I was a little kid.

    Jeremiah 1:5
    “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
    before you were born I set you apart;
    I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

    I will keep searching for a conclusion on babies who die before birth and/or baptism, but so far I have found that many people say that babies who are aborted or die before baptism don’t go to heaven. Personally, I don’t believe in this because God does not have a cruel nature. This bible quote above is partially supporting my view on this. Since God knew us before he formed us, than he must know that by our natural knowledge of him, all we can believe is in him. I have also heard of the opinion that if the unfortunate circumstance comes into play where an infant is killed or dies before baptism, God bases his decision off of the knowledge of the infant, and since all the infant can know is God because of our natural knowledge of God at conception, he allows infants into heaven.

    As for people who were raised not to believe in God, the Bible makes it clear that through nature and conscience each person has some knowledge about God and sin for which he is accountable. Look at how we are confident that God will not hold anyone accountable for any knowledge he did not receive and yet see how Christ is the only way to salvation. With the natural knowledge of God at his/her side, he must know that that there is a God. How do you explain when a baby who doesn’t know any better does something wrong and automatically you can see the look of guilt on his/her face? This is just another fact on how babies are born with natural knowledge of God; therefore, they are born with the knowledge of sin, so they know when they sin.

    Not only does that prove that a person always has knowledge of God, the media now a days will more than likely mention Christianity and its general beliefs. Once a person has become consciously aware of Theism, he then becomes responsible for his own opinion and whatever he chooses to believe in will seal his fate.

  40. on 14 May 2010 at 2:53 am 40.A real-ist said …

    “I will keep searching for a conclusion on babies who die before birth and/or baptism, but so far I have found that many people say that babies who are aborted or die before baptism don’t go to heaven.”

    I was talking about the fact that babies don’t believe in a God, not just ones that die before birth or when water is poured over their head. If babies that are baptized go to heaven, then I guess I am going to heaven if there is one since I was baptized. Babies don’t believe and now I don’t believe.

    “I don’t believe in this because God does not have a cruel nature.”…..”I can honestly say that no, I haven’t read every single piece of the bible, but I have been taught the most important parts of the bible since I was a little kid.”

    This proves that you were brainwashed to believe in and only know the good things the bible mentions about God. Maybe you should do research on all the bad things, for example, all the murders he says to commit or that he commited himslef, according to the bible.

    “How do you explain when a baby who doesn’t know any better does something wrong and automatically you can see the look of guilt on his/her face?”

    Um, that is from observing other people and also from past experiences when someone gets upset at them when they did something bad and they remember it. It is called learning. If you go to college when you graduate high school, I recomend you take a Psycology course.

  41. on 14 May 2010 at 3:05 am 41.DWH said …

    Greetings to all-of-the-above: I happened upon your conversations within the half an hour. Am challenged by the depth of your interactions concerning Theism vs Atheism.

  42. on 14 May 2010 at 3:07 am 42.DWH said …

    Am curious of your academic points of reference, especially considering the intensity of the flow of information between yourselves.

  43. on 14 May 2010 at 3:07 am 43.Corey said …

    Dear DWH,

    What side of the argument will you take? do I have another formidable, thick-skulled atheist on my hands?

  44. on 14 May 2010 at 3:12 am 44.DWH said …

    Thx for engaging me in your chat. Honestly, I have been on many sides of the searching and researching. I have strong opinions about imperical proofs rathan emotionally-charged defenses. That is a beginning for what I think in general.

  45. on 14 May 2010 at 3:15 am 45.DWH said …

    Thx for engaging me in your chat. Honestly, I have been on many sides of the searching and researching. I have strong opinions about imperical proofs rathan emotionally-charged defenses. That is a beginning for what I think in general.

    I seem to have been booted and am attempting to re-involve. Is anyone (other than God)still out ther???

  46. on 14 May 2010 at 3:16 am 46.Corey said …

    Okay, so what exactly is your opinion in this argument, or are you just comment on how our argument is enticing to you?

  47. on 14 May 2010 at 3:18 am 47.DWH said …

    If not, then I will say on good-evening’s for this session and sign in another time. This site seems worth a more thorough look. Good night folks. Good night to God – please shut off the lights when you leave……

  48. on 14 May 2010 at 3:19 am 48.DWH said …

    “Corey” since you are still awake: I will continue…

  49. on 14 May 2010 at 3:20 am 49.DWH said …

    I have become a believer in A Higher Power Whom I choose to call God (with a big “G”), thru the recovery movement – AA, NA most notably.

  50. on 14 May 2010 at 3:23 am 50.DWH said …

    They recommend a 12-Step approach to organizing introspections and outcomes, to spot areas of hindrance to mental health and to provide a receptical, if you will, for noteworthy progress.

  51. on 14 May 2010 at 3:26 am 51.DWH said …

    Today, May 13th, 2010 – I am celebrating the mark of 35 years of uninterupted sobriety from alcohol and narcotics. I have a hard time conceiving of such a platform, due to the discipline of a 24 hour period of concentration.

  52. on 14 May 2010 at 3:27 am 52.DWH said …

    And, I recognise the element of directed contact between God and myself as the focus of recovery on a daily basis.

  53. on 14 May 2010 at 3:27 am 53.Corey said …

    But first let us all know who your fighting for, please, its hard enough trying to “reason,” if you will, with all these atheists at one time.

  54. on 14 May 2010 at 3:27 am 54.A real-ist said …

    DWH, can you please put all your thoughts into one paragraph and not post on every sentence? This is not an instant messeger or chat room, it is a blog.

    “I have become a believer in A Higher Power Whom I choose to call God (with a big “G”), thru the recovery movement”

    Oh, no, not one of those people. Those reovery movements, or born again Christians, are just ways to mess with people’s minds.

  55. on 14 May 2010 at 3:29 am 55.DWH said …

    So, Corey and other readers, that is my simple story of a resolution from prior criminal behaviors and deceptive motivations for my relationships.

  56. on 14 May 2010 at 3:33 am 56.DWH said …

    A-Realist – Thx for redirecting how I was communicating here. First-timer ignorance…
    Will not dominate the screen that way. OOPS.

    I don’t know you well enough to form an opinion of your personal stability, your system of ethics, or your public demeanor. So, I would appreciate that you respect this forum for my part too. Thx.

  57. on 14 May 2010 at 3:48 am 57.DWH said …

    I have made a commitment to work to resist my own human urge to broad-stroke catagorize individuals because I note an initial scent of what they que as being their general beliefs/social preferences. I find this was a waste of energy and have experienced too many times the embarrassment of miscalculating the value of people who I swiftly boxed. I have come to understand why I developed that flawed system of thought – namely that I was quite insecure and unstable within my own self, and thus took pride in bullying people between my ears and sometimes with a reactive kick in their posteriors. My world view was decidedly selfish to the core, and I surrounded my interpretations with justifications aplenty… Right up to the point of my own human collapse. Then I found myself in need of compassion, patience and mentoring by some of the very types of people that I had purposely devalued and fearlessly injured for sport.

  58. on 14 May 2010 at 3:52 am 58.Corey said …

    In other words, you are a Christian/Theist? Dumb it down for me here, help me to understand what your saying in terms I can understand.

  59. on 14 May 2010 at 4:19 am 59.A real-ist said …

    DWH is saying he went from being a bad person to seeking help in becoming a good person. And along the way he thinks he found God. Why does a God have to be involved to turn from a bad person to a good person? Good morals come from human survival and the idea of good morals created the false idea of a God, not the other way around where a God created good morals.

  60. on 14 May 2010 at 4:34 am 60.DWH said …

    I admit that my brain (such as it was – a wasted heap of toxic ash loitering on my many-times broken shoulders) DID REQUIRE a thorough, an uncompromizingly thorough ethical scrubbing. I had to become legally harnessed and sufficiently silenced so that my perspectives could become flexible enough to retain any amount of innovative imput.

    I suppose that cultured folk do not need to be exposed to such an extreme internal restraint and reconditioning. But the only way that MY OWN volitility could be quenched, and the nicer sectors of society be spared further damage, was for me to surrender, to submit my stubborn will, to a cluster of human and divine powers which were collectively greater than myself.

    So then, because I have determined to submit my future to and utilize this SECOND CHANCE at life, society is safer. You must consider that my life of amends has certainly got to be considered more beneficial to you nicer types, than me brutilizing your prodegy, destroying your stuff, and poluting your neighborhoods with my formerly filthy actions. THUS, if my lifestyle gaining conservative stability actually permits you the safe distance to be able to “catagorize” me with all those religious born-again saved sinners, then I can live with that gross insinuation. AND you can live more peacefully in your bed tonight because I am now ON THE OTHER SIDE of a spiritual existence.

    A systematically skilled intellectual type of person would welcome how much MY BELIEFS engage me to serenity. And that person would wisely compliment how entirely my spiritual enlightment definitely prevents me from dysfunctionally overreacting to one thumbing their pompus nose, mocking my life choices as beneath rationality. Simply, the more spiritual I become, the less you have to ever look over your shoulder.

    I am now your compatriot in all things curious. I now respect your right to even cheapen my status as casually as you can flick a sticky green nasal waste off the end of your finger, not giving a care on whom your waste lands. Nowadays I would defend you against other types who would seek to constrict your free expressions, no matter how blind-mindedly your sense of intellectual arrival causes you to feel entitled to run ripshod over other people who are different than you.

    See, I have developed some mighty well-hewn ways to non-violently dispense my reactions to you chiding my hard-won sense of integrity…..

    Having redirected your disrespectful comments into the gutten of bias, I am going to excuse myself from your table, as I know that I am a guest here, and recline in my bed. I will venture here again.

  61. on 14 May 2010 at 4:54 am 61.A real-ist said …

    DWH, I am glad that you have become a nice person and don’t do bad things anymore.

    To everyone else, this is a perfect example of how religion was created and used throughout history as a control method. It kept bad people from harming good people. It is sad though that it takes believing in a higher power for one to decide to not do bad things anymore. Why can’t people just do it as a kind gesture to society? DWH claims that his belief in a higher power is the only thing holding him back from hurting others again. I hope that just wanting to be a positive contributer to society can be what keeps soemone from being a bad person, not a ball and chain.

  62. on 14 May 2010 at 5:07 am 62.Corey said …

    DWH is a personal friend of mine. Not only does God empower him to do kind thoughtful things for humanity, his sanity and ability to accept the past and live his future free of regret. His family and friends and those he cares for inspire him to be come a better person morally so he can be there during there low times. He just raises the gift that God gave to him on the pedestal because without God he wouldn’t been able to do any of the other kind things. God also strengthens his faith every day so he can find the might to think a little more outwardly about the people he cares for and think a little less selfishly so he doesn’t abuse God’s gift.

  63. on 14 May 2010 at 5:13 am 63.Corey said …

    Good morals do not come from human survival. When you say it like that you seem to be applying that survival is like ‘dog eat dog’, perhaps? If so, tell me how you can get good morals out of one human killing another for personal gain or pleasure? I think bad morals created a false idea of God because believers back then could’t see how an all loving God could allow evil to exist. This is most definitely the reason why these calamities have been written to try and falsify God. Your theories are bullshit and you have no right to try and explain someone you don’t even know to the rest of the world!

  64. on 14 May 2010 at 5:20 am 64.DWH said …

    WOW Corey: Didn’t realize that you were still online. Appreciate you saying those things. Evidently our fellow contributor A real-ist has not significant exposure to my kind of formerly depraved manner of living. Addiction and compulsive types of personality disorders are not readily responsive to woulda-coulda-shoulda “moral maxims” which I am very glad that he represents. In my prefered world, A real-ist would be lauded and respected as a productive citizen, a stablizing influence. His type of idealism (ala real-ism) woudl also insure a need for police, fire and healthcare personel to facilitate social restraint towards people like me who welcome this kind of casual approach as his. My forner fellows and Isee them as an easy mark for manipulation and ill-prepared for our violence, would eat them for breakfast and move on to other nice citizens…

  65. on 14 May 2010 at 11:54 am 65.A real-ist said …

    “Good morals do not come from human survival. When you say it like that you seem to be applying that survival is like ‘dog eat dog’, perhaps? If so, tell me how you can get good morals out of one human killing another for personal gain or pleasure?”

    You are implying that survival means killing each other. That is part of the problem with your thinking. If we all killed each other like that, we wouldn’t be surviving, now would we? To live in a good moral society we would have to survive by not killing each other. Killing others for personal gain or pleasure are the bad morals, which hurt our chance for survival because we would be killing each other off.

  66. on 14 May 2010 at 12:23 pm 66.Severin said …

    63 Corey
    “Good morals do not come from human survival.“

    Where is it comming from?
    The ONLY source of our knowledge about christian god and christian morals is the Bible. It was declared by church(es) to be the „word of god“ we have to apply and to obey. No other source of christian morals is known.

    PLEASE, do read the Bible, do not delay it!
    Try to read it in continuity (untill you star to vomit, but please continue!).
    How will you justify your god doing such stupid and terrible things as:
    -He based the existance and development of the human race on INCEST. There were no other people to make new children but brothers and sisters, except maybe parents and their children. Nature developed a lot of mechanisms to avoid incestous mating, because successors from such relations are getting physically and mentally retarded. Incestual mating leads to degradation and finally to disappearance of species. God did not know it.
    -God himself ordered many masacres of whole populations, including children in cradles („…put children from crdles on sabers…“)
    -He directly ordered killing of women, but not all of them! He ordered the victors to take virgins for themselves (sexual slavery!)
    -He was so perverted, that he ordered even killing of the enemy’s cattle!
    -He, of course, did not forget „benefits“ of robbing. He directly ordered victors to grab valuable goods from conquered towns.
    -He ordered stoning of non virgin brides
    -He ordered stoning of people working on holyday and desobediant children
    -He gave instructions to fathers how to sell their daughters to slavory, to make such a trade “honest” and “benefitial” to poor young ladies
    -He gave instructions to owners how to punish their slaves without killing them (he never said a word AGAINST slavery!)
    -Etc, etc, etc, read yourself!

  67. on 14 May 2010 at 12:56 pm 67.Corey said …

    Good morals come from good lifestyle. Think of it like this…If humans did not have a conscience, or any way of distinguishing between right and wrong, then we would live our lives only for our own personal gain because “dog eat dog” is based off of one’s own survival insticts. God, being the one who has given us our conscience and ability to choose between good and the abscense of good is the one who gives us our spiritual morals, which reflect here on earth; not to mention the fact that our natural knowledge of God shows that we are by nature sinful and unclean. Our natural knowledge of God and sin show that The Bible isn’t the only source of morality; we ourselves should be a source of morality because God “wrote the ten commandments on our heart.”

    Also, if you are so eager to use the bible to prove me and every other theist wrong, why don’t you quote the bible. all of these statements you have given above do not give a valid argument to how our god is immoral. Show me where he says these things and surely I can explain to you the true meaning of what God means, because obviously, you don’t understand God or morality at all besides your own human insticts, which have been diluted with the lies of modern day society and the media. I don’t understand of how you can speak of immorality when you don’t even understand the essence of morals in the first place.

  68. on 14 May 2010 at 1:01 pm 68.Severin said …

    63 Corey
    After you find in the Bible the a.m. horrors and stupidities (and stop vomiting), PLEASE do not come to me/us with Jesus!

    IF he existed, and IF he was a god, he should hang on his cross for eternity for his crimes.

    What crimes, you might ask?

    The VERY SAME I listed above!

    Was Jesus god, or not?

    He belongs to trinity, 3 in 1, doesn’t he?
    There were NO 3 gods, but only ONE god, part of which was Jesus. INDIVISIBLE PART, I was taughtsome time ago!

    So WHERE WAS JESUS when his “father” terrorized the world and commited enormeous crimes?
    Was he on holyday? He WAS THERE, HE WAS GOD HIMSELF, and he KNEW what was going on, even before he was borne as human. HE ordered all the crimes personally! Jesus = god! Or is he? How could the „parts“ of the trinity share responsibility?

    What an ugly, sick, perverted story:
    God kills and robs, imposes terrible „laws“ to humans (kill your child if he/she hits you, stone the bride on her father’s treshold if she is not a virgin…), orders masacres…then, suddenly, he sends A PART OF HIMSELF to be crucified FOR SALVATION OF HUMAN RACE!
    Morbid! Twisted! Sick! Lunatic! What a twisted mind could make up such a story?
    And what a twisted mind can accept it, and find moral guidance in it?

    PLEASE do not poison your young and capable mind with such ugly, totally illogical stories! Leave some room there for real learning!

  69. on 14 May 2010 at 1:13 pm 69.Severin said …

    Corey

    What made me first doubt in Bible, when I was about 9 or 10, were god’s detailed instructions about burned offerings people have to prepare for him (Bible!).

    Can you imagine an allmighty god full of love and goodness, an elevated being, a being deserving all our respect, sniffing burned meat and enjoying it?

    Of course, primitive writes of the Bible forgot that some 2000 years after them, curious childen will ask: did god have a nose?
    Why did he not enjoy smell of roses? Or of cakes?

  70. on 14 May 2010 at 1:20 pm 70.Corey said …

    Jesus was, is, and always will be God!!

    Until YOU can find some valid evidence retaining to the bible that says that God has done all of these things, YOU have no valid argument. Simply giving us YOUR reasons for why YOU believe there is no God is not God enough. PERSONAL OPINION cannot disprove any theories, YOU need hard evidence!

  71. on 14 May 2010 at 2:16 pm 71.Anonymous said …

    A. Citations directly from bible, telling us that the Bible IS god’s word. Please see espaecially 2 Peter 1:20-21

    2 Timothy 3:16
    All scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness.

    1 Thessalonians 2:13
    And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God.

    2 Peter 1:20-21
    Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

    Psalm 19:7
    The law of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul.

  72. on 14 May 2010 at 2:18 pm 72.Anonymous said …

    Sorry, I (Severin) was 71 Anonimous, forgott to write it

  73. on 14 May 2010 at 2:23 pm 73.Severin said …

    B. Several direct citation of „perfect“, „soul reviving“ god’s words from the Bible

    Exodus Chapter 21, verse 1:
    Now these are the ordinances which you shall set before them. When you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master’s and he shall go out alone. But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for life.

    Exodus Chapter 21, verse 20:
    If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

    Leviticus Chapter 25, verse 44:
    Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves…..

    Leviticus Chapter 1
    The Lord called to Moses and spoke to him from the Tent of Meeting. He said, “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘When any of you brings an offering to the Lord , bring as your offering an animal from either the herd or the flock…….
    …. He is to wash the inner parts and the legs with water, and the priest is to burn all of it on the altar. It is a burnt offering, an offering made by fire, an aroma pleasing to the Lord .

    Isaiah chapter 13
    Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children.

    Numbers chapter 31
    ….. Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

    Next we turned and went up along the road toward Bashan, and Og king of Bashan with his whole army marched out to meet us in battle at Edrei. The LORD said to me, “Do not be afraid of him, for I have handed him over to you with his whole army and his land. Do to him what you did to Sihon king of the Amorites, who reigned in Heshbon.” So the LORD our God also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan and all his army. We struck them down, leaving no survivors. At that time we took all his cities. There was not one of the sixty cities that we did not take from them—the whole region of Argob, Og’s kingdom in Bashan. All these cities were fortified with high walls and with gates and bars, and there were also a great many unwalled villages. We completely destroyed them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every city—men, women and children. But all the livestock and the plunder from their cities we carried off for ourselves

  74. on 14 May 2010 at 2:38 pm 74.Severin said …

    Corey
    So:
    a: Bible is god’s word, no doubt. It is written there.
    b: Just see what god is telling in the Bible, and vomit, but DO NOT DOUBT GOD DID SAY IT, the Bible does not allow a trace of doubt in it (see “a”)!
    c: The Bible is the ONLY source of christianity
    d: If Jesus = god, those are his words and deeds too. He was quite a different guy before his “offer another cheek” bullshits.
    However, he could not resist his real nature, and called to join him “only those who hate their parents…” (etc, this is not a direct citation, but do not be lazy and find it for yourself)

    Do not be lazy! Bible is astounding literature, why don’t you just read it?

  75. on 14 May 2010 at 3:47 pm 75.3D said …

    74.Severin said …
    Do not be lazy! Bible is astounding literature, why don’t you just read it?

    Severin: I believe Corey is an example of a phenomenon that has taken root in the last 20 or 30 years — youth pastors encourage kids to read selected portions of the Bible, not read it cover to cover. And then they paste those parts together in a misleading collage of gooey theological concepts like the ones Corey has posted here. They sound good, but they contradict what the Bible actually says (and contradict common sense too, but that’s less and less of a problem as society at large loses the ability to follow logic, year by year).

    It’s like Christianity 2.0. Edit out anything that isn’t New-Age-y lukewarm ‘spiritual’ BS, like the stoning and burning parts. Just say a bunch of vague pointless maxims about God and you’re a Christian!

  76. on 14 May 2010 at 5:10 pm 76.DWH said …

    Presuming that I have found the most current talking points, I would like to engage you all at this table. Time limits today will cause me to be brief and type only a few contributions.

  77. on 14 May 2010 at 5:13 pm 77.DWH said …

    The current time here in my cyberworld is 1:12pm EST on Friday, March 14th. Since I am new to this blog (only beginning to type here late yesterday evening), I may need some air traffic control suggestions in order to be responding to your most recent dialogues. Thx in advance for helping me to orient here at this table.

  78. on 14 May 2010 at 5:29 pm 78.DWH said …

    I must say that I do enjoy the eevey-ivee-over so throw the ball (of information) over the roof of the garage. I want my mind to be exercised and examined to review my convictions. The Theist vs Athiest orientation of this blog will help me to tone myself, and hopefully contribute meaningful challenges as well.

  79. on 14 May 2010 at 5:52 pm 79.DWH said …

    I posit that imperical faith-based truth & the scientific method are not emenies. Only the introduction of assundry tribes of loyalty have infected this cooperative relationship. I deeply respect the integral of test/retest/re-retest, followed by multiple conditioned exposures to validate the universal applications, to prove as-it-were the “accuracy of theories” with improbable variables.

    Reliability and viability are the core values of these experimental actions, during which trends are exposed to risk, developing statistics which eventually perform beyond reproach, or are reconsidered to firm those pesky liquid variables.

    I believe at the radix of all of these (seemingly conflicting) efforts are the hopes and dedication of each tribe’s preferences. Unfortunately, subsets of the common hope become the rabbit trails which take on a comperative life of their own. Walls of defenses against aggressive exposure, and the fretting about bean-counting, become the focus rather than the incorporation of balance. The tension of seeking intellectual security cause all sides to radiate intolerance under the guise of seeking to influence test subjects toward harmony of outcomes. Please note: not necessarily UNIFORM outcomes, because certain variables divert by design precious energies during the flux of the experimental period.

  80. on 16 May 2010 at 6:09 am 80.Severin said …

    70 Corey
    “Until YOU can find some valid evidence retaining to the bible that says that God has done all of these things, YOU have no valid argument.”

    I gave you many evidences, and you can find more in the Bible if you read it.

    Now – what?
    It is not a good debate manner to require evidences, then to neglect them when you get them, BUT to continue debate just as nothing had happened.
    It disturbs you credibility.

    Although very young, I don’t think you would like to be taken as a demagogue.

  81. on 18 May 2010 at 3:41 pm 81.Corey said …

    Okay, what your not understanding is that you say God did all of these things, yet you give no physical or biblical proof of it happening. Maybe your right, I don’t get where you are coming from, but please give examples from the bible and as for recent incidents, give examples of how God is involved in them. and please, stop insulting my intelligence because you are not an all-knowing God either.

  82. on 19 May 2010 at 12:39 am 82.Severin said …

    81 Corey
    “…stop insulting my intelligence because you are not an all-knowing God either.”
    Dear Corey, I am NOT trying to insult you, trust me!

    And, of course, I am NOT god, because I think god exists.
    But if I was biblical god, I would hang myself instantly for what I did to human race. Unlike Biblical god, I am responsible, and could not bring the load of so many crimes on my conscience, so I would probably hang myself.
    “….you say God did all of these things, yet you give no physical or biblical proof of it happening.”
    I did NOT say god “did all those things”! BIBLE does! What I offered you were direct citations from the Bible to prove WHAT BIBLE (=GOD HIMSELF) is telling us! I did not put a word of my own there!
    So if Bible says it is the word of god, and it is written IN THE BIBLE that god ordered to masacre children (read it yourself!), it was not what I claimed, but Bible did.
    “…but please give examples from the bible..”
    I gave you many! What further examples from the Bible you need? More mascres? You will find them easyly if you only read Bible.
    “…and as for recent incidents, give examples of how God is involved in them.”
    I never said god vas involved in any incidents, recent or past. BIBLE claims he was, and YOU trust it.
    As you declared yourself as believer, I thought maybe it might be interesting to you to discover the real nature of god you believe in.
    I do not think ANYTHIN is “god’s will”. If he existed, and if it was his will to be involved in recent “incidents” (tsunami, Haiti…) he should be punished for his lunatic cruelty.
    I think all events are coincidences. Some of them are caused by nature itself, other are caused by humans, and humans ONLY are responsible for them (wars, hunger, refugees, masacres).
    “…, I don’t get where you are coming from… “
    WHY is it important? Do you have prejuditions? Do you trust more someone coming from one place than someone else coming from another place?
    Try dealing arguments, NOT origins.

  83. on 19 May 2010 at 12:41 am 83.Severin said …

    “And, of course, I am NOT god, because I think god exists.”

    Of course, it should stay here: … I do NOT think god exists.

  84. on 19 May 2010 at 6:30 pm 84.Severin said …

    “Do you have prejuditions?”
    Sorry: Do you have prejudices?

  85. on 19 May 2010 at 8:11 pm 85.Corey said …

    Well, if you could, please give me the bible verses that you are quoting from so I can go read them, and maybe give you and myself a better understanding of them. Also, what do you mean by prejudices? Explain so I can tell you.

  86. on 19 May 2010 at 10:34 pm 86.Severin said …

    Corey,
    I can now guess what might confuse you in my comments.
    I wrote for example: “Bible is god’s word, no doubt.”

    I did not mean that I do not doubt it. I ment that writers of the Bible wanted to persuade readers of the Bible that god himself dictated the book. They (writers) did not want readers to have any doubt that the Bible was the word of god himself.
    To “fix” such a believe in reader’s mind, they repeated it many times, not always using the same words. So you have in the Bible several claims which are deliberately put there to fix your belief that Bible was what god himself wanted to say to you
    I cited several such verses, and I repeat them here (only the titles):
    2 Timothy 3:16
    1 Thessalonians 2:13
    2 Peter 1:20-21
    Psalm 19:7
    The essence of those and other similar verses is: Do not doubt in Bible because Bible is word of god! God DID say (or send message) what was written in Bible.

    Now if you understood that the Bible was declared to be a word of god, and it was repeatedly said that you must not doubt it (2 Peter 20-21: “ …you MUST understand …”), I wanted to show you WHAT were god’s words, according to Bible.
    I illustrated it citing:
    Exodus Chapter 21, verse 1
    Leviticus Chapter 25, verse 44
    Leviticus Chapter 1
    Isaiah chapter 13
    Numbers chapter 31

    You do not need to trust me, check yourself: Bible is full of such things!

    The only conclusion I can get:
    a) Bible is declared to be a sacred, inviolable word of god. Bible itself claims it, and makes efforts to persuade you to trust it by repeating it many times
    b) Bible cites god himself, or people who (according to Bible) had direct contact with him, people to which god directly transferred his orders. You can see what god (according to Bible) said in the a.m. citations. You can of course find them in the Bible, and many others similar to those cited.
    c) If the a.m. citations are words of god, as Bible claims, and if he ever existed, he was a selfish, jalous, twisted, lunatic monster.
    What else to say for a creature which orders children in cradles to be “put on sabres”?

  87. on 19 May 2010 at 11:44 pm 87.Severin said …

    85 Corey
    “A prejudice is a prejudgment: i.e. a preconceived belief, opinion, or judgment made without ascertaining the facts of a case.” (cited from dictionary).

    In this specific case I had feeling (I guess wrong!) that your question about my origin has something to do with prjudices.
    I heard many times in my life people saying:
    “Gypsies steal”
    “Jews care only for money”
    “Italians eat cats”
    “Muslims stink”
    “Black people are lazy”
    Etc
    Such generalizations are ugly prejudices.

    I honestly tell you that I had in mind when you asked me where I am coming from that you might be interested in my origin to make a prejudiced picture of me.

    I was obviously wrong, and I appologize.

    I live in a small East European country south-east from Austria, I am old (67), I have university degree in chemistry, my grandies were active catholics, my parents were both atheists…..
    AND (for the 100th time, because I was all the time criticized for my bad English on these pages): sorry, I can not better! I learnt English relatively recently from books (self-taught), but I do hope you understand me well.

  88. on 20 May 2010 at 2:42 am 88.Corey said …

    I understand you completely well. I only come on here for a constructive argument to better my knowledge in what I believe and also challenge myself at what i have learned. I do believe in God, my friend. I can truthfully say that if you allow god to show you the brighter side of his word, and you peacefully follow him, You will see he great he really is. And I have nothing against you language, typing, or any such nonsense. I only wish to have a polite argument with you and others to get everyone else thinking about their believes and double check yourselves to see if its not just arrogance that blinds you.

    First, about the writers of the bible…God said that he sent his word directly to them through prophecies, teaching, and such, right? yes. Unfortunately, the only proof of that is the bible. But there is no proof that argues it false. And yes, the bible does repeat itself quite frequently, but on an overall scale, God is not a hard person to understand; therefore, there isn’t many points to make. But God not only teaches us about his son and himself and his prophets, he teaches us how to peacefully life their lives so that they can join him in heaven.

    In Exodus 21, God speaks of a servant. I suppose you are reverting to slavery…? The term servant as used back then is not how it is used in today’s society. God mentions payment of the servant, which shows its not slavery, and the servant shows love to its masters, which shows a good relationship.

    Isaiah 13 is about Babylon being destroyed, correct? As I read this, it reminded me of the judgement of the world in a microcosm. think of babylon as the entire earth…God made a judgement upon babylon and his judgement was to condemn them for the great crimes that they had committed (sin). Back then, Jesus’ death on the cross hadn’t happened yet; therefore God showed no mercy upon those who broke his law a countless number of times without repentance or asking for forgiveness. Back then God’s law was the code of moral and spiritual standards back then, not government and police or such. Whoever disobeyed God’s law, gave god the right to punish them how he saw fit because they had broken his law and he was the enforcer.

    Numbers 31 is basically the same thing. The Midianites did not believe in God and committed so much sin that God made a judgement on them that they would be better off the world instead of corrupting its children.

    That is the correct interpretation of those passages.

  89. on 21 May 2010 at 2:24 am 89.Corey said …

    How come our argument stopped?

  90. on 21 May 2010 at 7:34 pm 90.Severin said …

    88 Corey
    “if you allow god to show you the brighter side of his word, and you peacefully follow him, You will see he great he really is.“

    I do allow him! Why wouldn’t I? He, however, never showed any will to do anything about me.

    What I DO NOT ALLOW is people speaking „in name of god(s)“ to influence my mind.
    WHY should I trust them?
    I understood there should be only one god, but I see hundreds of religions all around. Christianity is divided to many separated religions, not to speak about non-christian religions.
    They FIGHT ech other! Untill recently those struggles were pretty bloody, not only symbolical. Some of them are extremely bloody even today.
    What can I learn from a religion trying to convict me (in 21th century!) god made man from dirt, and FIGHT against other religions which are saying EXACTLY the same BS?
    Why are CHRISTIAN religion fighting each other? They all recognize the Bible, it is the same book all the time. They ALL recognize Jesus.
    Why are MUSLIM religions fighting each other? Etc.

    And you expect me to trust them! No, thanks!
    If god decides to tell me something, I will become a believer that very second, because I recognize the value of evidences. I am totally open minded.

    The value of „evidences“ all religion offer to prove their gods exist and are the right ones, is zero. What woould you say if a scientist told you/us that the whole universe we know is located inside the upper part of the lower part of a leg of a giant ant, living in still bigger universe, and said: yes, it is the truth, you have to trust me!? Evidences? What evidences, you have to TRUST what I say!
    You would laugh, of course!
    Then another scientist comes to you and says: No, our universe is located inside of the lower part of the upper part of ant’s leg! The guy who told you oposite is a swindler!

    That is EXACTLY what religions are doing!

  91. on 21 May 2010 at 7:49 pm 91.Severin said …

    Corey
    “Unfortunately, the only proof of that is the bible.”

    Yes, VERY inconveniant!
    But you made mistake calling the book “proof”.
    It is exactly the same if I called Odyssey a proof mermates (Cyclops) exist (because they are mantioned in the book as FACT!).
    Why would Homer be less reliable “witness” than prophets?
    Or, why would Mo be less reliable than Jesus? Mo claimed a horse with wings existed. WHY is it less reliable than talking snake (Genesis), burning bush, angels coming to speak to people…
    Or, why would a christian priest be more or less reliable than other christian priests? Just WHY?

  92. on 21 May 2010 at 7:58 pm 92.Severin said …

    Corey
    “God showed no mercy upon those who broke his law a countless number of times without repentance or asking for forgiveness.”

    Why the all-loving god did not show SOME mercy? That was my point!
    Did you read god’s laws?
    Do not work on sabath, punishment: public stoning.
    You must be virgin in the first night of your marriage. If you are not, punishment: stoning on the treshold of your father’s home.
    You maust worship ME, not other gods. If you do not, I will distroy the whole town of yours and kill even children in cradles, and cattle you have (but I will allow virgin young ladies to be taken as slaves).

    Were those NORMAL laws? If they were, WHY do we not obey them today? Bible DID NOT change! God NEVER wthdrew his laws!
    Something stinks here!

  93. on 21 May 2010 at 8:10 pm 93.Severin said …

    Corey
    “That is the correct interpretation of those passages.”

    Why Bible needs interpreters? Was god an imbecil if he did not know what and how to say, but left to each hilbilly ti interpert HIS WORDS according to his taste?
    (I do not think you are a hilbilly, it is figurative)

    THAT is why we have so many christian religions: same book, many interpretations! How can I know who is right and who is not?
    WHY would one interpretation of a VERY SILLY (cruel, inconsistent, immoral, illogical, from todays point of view) be better tha another? Whome to trust?

    I trust my common sense and my education, and people much more educated and more intelligent than myself: even if you take Bible as LITERATURE, it is not “some book”. If you take it as god’s truth, it is – sorry! – a BS.

  94. on 21 May 2010 at 11:36 pm 94.Corey said …

    If science has not proven the existence of such creatures, then either they don’t exist, or they exist at the very bottom of the ocean where we cannot get to them. Since creatures like “flying horses” and “cyclops” were/are land and air creatures, they cannot exist under water. So this proves that these mythical creatures don’t exist.

    Yes, I did call the bible proof because I believe in God and I believe in his word. This may not apply to you, but I was saying that in my perspective. Let’s say it like this: “the bible is the only thing that says the prophets got their knowledge from God.”

    “Do not work on sabath, punishment: public stoning.
    You must be virgin in the first night of your marriage. If you are not, punishment: stoning on the treshold of your father’s home.
    You maust worship ME, not other gods. If you do not, I will distroy the whole town of yours and kill even children in cradles, and cattle you have (but I will allow virgin young ladies to be taken as slaves).”

    Please give me the stories and/or passages from the bible that tell me what you have stated. I am not exactly sure what passages and/or stories they are from.

    As for many different Christian religions…The devil has done the work of sin and has confused all of us to believe in different things. I cannot personally vouch for what is the true religion, but I will say that I am Lutheran. Lutherans go by what the bible says and we do our best not to form our own conclusions or assume things from what we read. We base our beliefs solely off what the bible says and that’s it.

    There are many ways to interpret what God says in the bible, and some atheists and other non-believers have become very good at using the wrong interpretations to make God look like a bad person. In truth, only God and the prophets can interpret what God has said correctly. I interpret the meaning of what God says based off of the belief that God is not cruel and he is an all-loving God. You must agree, being that a God did create the universe, that he is an omni-max being. if this is true, then you must agree that God would be all-loving. Since this is so, I interpret the bible to the best of my knowledge of what an all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful God would have meant.

    True, God hasn’t withdrawn the laws that he set upon us. The truth is, we are such a sinful people that we cannot naturally obey his laws, but because Jesus died for our sins, all God can see in us is his son, therefore, he loves every single one of us.

  95. on 22 May 2010 at 8:52 am 95.Severin said …

    94 Corey
    “If science has not proven the existence of such creatures, then either they don’t exist, or they exist at the very bottom of the ocean where we cannot get to them.”
    Or they happyly live on the surface of a planet (or, probably: planets), send the sms messages to ech other, but are sooooooo far form us that we can not detect them with our technology. Neither they can detect us.

    Light (and radio waves) need some 4 years to reach the star closest to our sun (Alpha Centaury).

    It is VERY PROBABLE primitive life to occure in our negborhood (microorganisms, deep in oceans or on surface, as well), but VERY UNPROBABLE intelligent life to occure so close to us.
    IF it exists (which I personally do not doubt), there are no real chances to know it. If the nearest intelligent life is only 2 million light yeras far form us(yes, it is “ONLY” compared to how huge universe is), and we accidentally discovered their signals, then we KNOW those signals traveled to us 2 million years. HOW to talk to the? To say “hello” and wait for 4 milion years for their answer?

    Have you any idea about how REALY big is the universe?

    Some 130 billion galaxies detected, some 200 billion of stars each, and – of course – trillions of planets!
    Diameter of some 130 billion LIGHT YEARS!

    Now, if life occured on earth by natural causes, it is quite IMPOSSIBLE that some of trillions of planets happyly orbiting their suns in the BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG universe did not happen to have conditions similar to earth and to bear life.

    If GOD created universe, did he created life ONLY on earth?
    WHY? What was so special on the earth, AMONG OTHER TRILLIONS OF PLANETS, to attract god to create life ONLY here?

    Or, do populations of other planets god created life on have also their own Jesuses, Noahs…?

  96. on 22 May 2010 at 9:02 am 96.Severin said …

    Corey
    “Please give me the stories and/or passages from the bible that tell me what you have stated. I am not exactly sure what passages and/or stories they are from.”

    Sorry, our communication is somehow disfunctional.

    I CLEARLY listed several biblical verses which represent DIRECT GOD’S LAWS AND GOD’S ORDERS TO PEOPLE.
    I will repeat:
    Exodus Chapter 21, verse 1
    Leviticus Chapter 25, verse 44
    Leviticus Chapter 1
    Isaiah chapter 13
    Numbers chapter 31

    Of course, there are many other verses like those listed.
    If you did find those segments in the Bible WHAT is unclear?
    Those ARE god’s words (orders, laws…). Not mine or yours!

  97. on 22 May 2010 at 9:06 am 97.Severin said …

    Corey
    “I interpret the meaning of what God says based off of the belief that God is not cruel and he is an all-loving God.”
    How can you believe god was not cruel, after reading his orders in the bible, which YOU TRUST.
    Isn’t it a paradox? I doubt you are unintelligent to support paradoxes.

  98. on 22 May 2010 at 10:05 am 98.Severin said …

    Corey
    Then, beside the question why god chose earth to put life on it, among trillions of other planets in the universe, or he, maybe, put life on some other planets and let people there to have their own Bibles, Jesuses…, there is another intriguing question:

    Why did god choose Jews as “chosen nation” and why did he choose Jesus to be a Jew?
    Jews were at that time, compared to the whole population of earth, as small as they are today. They never represented mor than some 0.02% of total population of earth (it is an aproximation, but according to some data not far from fact).
    At biblical times, China was tremendously big already, had at least 10,000 times population of Judea, and had its own gods for 5000 years (so they SINNED against the “real” god!They were mislead!). Africa was populated with some hundreds of milion of people, and already had its civilisations which also SINNED aginst the “real” god, having a procession of their own ones.
    Europe was populated with many tribes, not as civilised as China and Africa, BUT there were Roman and Greece cultures, with MUCH bigger population than Judea, and all of them SINNED against the “real” god, having hundrds of thir own ones.
    What about American civilisations, with population many times bigger than Judean, with highly developed civilisations and with their own religions.

    So WHY would god choose a small (negligibly small compared to the rest of the world!) nation to “heal” it rom sins? WHY ONLY Jews desrved to get “salvation”?

    Why did god just neglect hundreds of millions of other people around the world? WHY did he not “enlighten” them too with this new religion, but let them risk to deserve hell for their sins? Moreover: he let them NEVER know his “grace”, “love”, his “laws”, he refused to give them his “truth”, they never had chances to meet Jesus’es love and his teachings…
    WHY was som 0.02% of human race SO important to the “all-loving god”, that he just neglected the mayority of human race?

  99. on 30 May 2010 at 2:55 am 99.Abi Abreu said …

    If God said all this false teachings would be true,then why do u denie his superiority?palsm said that God planned our life from the day were born and the day we die.does this by any means mean that he wants the wrong done to us to happen to us?NO.U people as in those who are to self-centered and proud to accept that there Is something greater than u that u cant understand that there is, are the true ‘jerks’.he did not steal pigs,instead he loves humans so much that hed rather kill the pigs than have the demon kill one of us!He is jealous for U.all the sick ways u live your life,he loves u enough to shake u till realize that he does!He loves like a hurricane,we are but trees!he could destroy us at any moment in time.But think about this,if he is real,and he hasnt killed me yet,could that mean he actually loves me?and to love someone the lover has to be real.so my case i bring to the court,i have spoken foul against u,does that not so love?for in this life u who speak out against God because u dont understand, are my eniemes,but i love you.proving that so does God.his plan for you was to hear this.no he wont decide what ull do with this knowlege,but u will,for God loved us so he gave us such a dangerous gift as free will,to love him back.what u will u do,o lost sheep?the arms of Godd are warm.it will heat up ur pain filled lives.either way i love u all. God forgets no one.did he forget u?no.if no one else,i came to tell u the real good news.God is real,has made a way for all of us,but people like u who reject it,well,what place do you have in God’s kingdom?So ask urself,which side are u on?my e-mail is abipurpleheart@gmail.com.God will answer all ur questions anytime.But on his time,not urs,for he is a higher being.but u rush him.pray and wait.for u have to obey all of Gods word.So if u pray but not wait,what good will come to you?Amen.

  100. on 24 Jun 2010 at 10:17 pm 100.Abi Abreu said …

    you guys are logically and deeply mal-knowlegable.you claim your degrees and scince,saying we make excuses for our God,but you make no sense in your ways.you destroy your cities and fellow homosepiaens with little if any remorse.if we dindt defend God, He’d defend Himself.and we would not bow to your uninformed insults.you pick on the kind hearted and abuse good people,so when you hear God is a loving God,you act as if you are better than him.BUT, he is the Holy God,and your smallest sin is your greatest offence to Him.he is not only the God of inunderstandable love, But He is also the Judge of your soul.your knowlege is like worthless molded bread, and he shall destroy you for speaking out against him and insulting Him with your disgusting bread.my only consent to you is that you pray for God to revel himself to you.you dont have to believe him,however its impending that you do.Repent (which by definition means to turn away from) of your sinful ways, and understand that Jesus somehow still loves you.because if i were Him,i know i wouldn;t.but i suggest you accept His selfless offer,while its still there…

  101. on 25 Jun 2010 at 10:18 am 101.Severin said …

    99 Abi Abreu
    “palsm said that God planned our life from the day were born and the day we die.”

    Then why are you praying to god?
    Is god going to change his plans because of your, or anyone’s prayers?

  102. on 25 Jun 2010 at 10:25 am 102.Severin said …

    100 Abi
    “and he shall destroy you for speaking out against him and insulting Him”

    Wasn’t it what he planned with me (us)?
    Doesn’t he have plan for me from the time I was borne to my death?

    He planned me to be like this! It is not my fault!

    I am not going to tease god by trying to change his plans.

  103. on 11 Jul 2010 at 4:01 pm 103.TruthSeeker said …

    2 Timothy 3:16
    1 Thessalonians 2:13
    2 Peter 1:20-21
    Psalm 19:7

    Is the same thing as:
    Hap*py (ha*pee) adj. 1. happy. I am happy.

    If someone doesn’t know what happy means… this means nothing. As is the same for someone who does not believe in the bible.

    94 Corey:
    “Do not work on sabath, punishment: public stoning.”
    Have you ever heard of the 10 Commandments? I guess not. Every commandment (except 1) has a penalty assosiciated with it.
    Read Lev 15 (second half) : Menstration: 1. An involuntary biological function considered to be an act of willful defiance against the Lord God! After being an outcast for a week the woman must bathe and put on clean clothes for her priest to “examine” her for monthly flow. Where else would “monthly flow” evidence be on someone who has just bathed? Lift your skirt while priest man plays gynecologist! Then your 2 sacrifices can be done, 1 for thanking God for allowing you to rejoin society, the second to be forgiven of your “sin.”
    Since it’s an involuntary action God put upon women, why is ‘it’ a sin? Since God determines whether a woman becomes pregnant or not, why is ‘it’ a sin? Punishing women for a decision God made yet brainwashing them to believe it is thier act of defiance and needs to be forgiven? but so heinous it cannot be till the 8th day, so if she dies in the interm, she burns forever in hell?
    Read Lev 12. Sins of having babies, 2 & 1/2 months before can be forgiven of sin of giving birth to a female.
    Duet 22:13-29 Of buying defective (non-virgin) wives, and the punishments to women who are raped. If married, she’s stoned for commiting adultry. If unmarried, she must spend the rest of her life as his sex slave.

    After actually reading the bible on my own, like they were asking you to, instead of only reading what your priest tells you to read and accept his interpretations. This doesn’t even scratch the surface of the rapant sexism in the bible. In fact these are so dark most won’t even touch them in preference to the ‘lighter’ ones.
    The “Law” was written by a sexist, racist, delusional-egomaniac* goat herder!
    * What else would someone be for claiming that THEY were the most humble person on the whole planet and that THEY were the only person worthy to have God talk to him? Kinda the opposite of ‘humble’ isn’t it?

  104. on 05 Dec 2010 at 10:14 pm 104.john said …

    Are bodies were perfect untill sin entered this world. It wasn’t his fault it was ours. Each strand of our dna is 6 feet long. Scientists say that they found a missing link from some skull that looks like a fish. Although it wasn’t GOD’s fault that we sinned he gave his only son. Would you give your son for someone else? I wouldn’t. God is all loving. He loves gay people and every sort of person. But he does not approve of their lifestyle. I feel bad for atheists who desperateley try to estinguish everybody elses beleifs. I give one simple message to atheists and everybody else who tries to pull us christians away from God, WE WILL NOT GIVE UP.

  105. on 26 Jan 2012 at 4:50 am 105.Abi Abreu said …

    Your insulting God by not believing in him.if i say,”you do not exsit,severin”,you’d be offened.id be mocking all your deeds and accomplishments.in this way,you mock God,and are choosing to not follow the plan he has made for you,which are plans of good (Jer.)God gave us a chose,so your choosing to not believing God.we as his servents cant force you,but we must inform you there are eternal consequences for your mommentary unbelif.for we will all see God on judgement day,but then id be to late.

  106. on 26 Jan 2012 at 7:49 am 106.Lou (DFW) said …

    105.Abi Abreu said …

    “Your [sic] insulting God by not believing in him.”

    If that was actually true, then your god would be pathetic. He would have a narcissistic personality disorder

    Why would a “god” require that I believe in him?

    Ridiculous!

  107. on 28 Jan 2012 at 6:00 am 107.Anonymous said …

    The nonsense believers come up with in order to sustain their delusion is amazing!

    So, we have an omnipotent god who needs mere humans to worry about his feelings? Pathetic.

    The same god is supposedly going to be upset at people not believing in him even though he knows that it’s his own fault for not providing proof? Self-destructive or what?

    Really. Do you believers disengage your brains before you commit these stupid arguments to the web? Any god who is going to be upset because I don’t believe in him is worthless. But then, gods don’t exist and people who believe in them are delusional.

  108. on 28 Jan 2012 at 1:47 pm 108.Frankness said …

    One of many reasons I believe in God is the massive effort that takes place to eradicate God from society. Lets face it, that is not happening for Zeus, FSM or elves.

    Nietzsche tried with many others, they are dead and God lives. Sites like this attempt to claim they desire to convert theist but doing so ridicule and anger. Anyone with even a below-average IQ knows that is not how one is converted. No, sites like this are developed to battle against that which they hate. Do we battle against the imaginary? No, atheist fear they are wrong and thus their emphatic obsession with God.

  109. on 28 Jan 2012 at 2:11 pm 109.Lou (DFW) said …

    108.Frankness said …

    “One of many reasons I believe in God is the massive effort that takes place to eradicate God from society.”

    Many, many more people believe in bigfoot than are allegedly trying to “eradicate God from society.” Therefore, do you believe in bigfoot, too?

    “Anyone with even a below-average IQ knows that is not how one is converted.”

    And knows that there is no evidence for god.

    “No, sites like this are developed to battle against that which they hate. Do we battle against the imaginary?”

    No, “we battle” against real, delusional people such as yourself who attempt to force their false beliefs upon those of us with an above-average IQ.

    “No, atheist fear they are wrong and thus their emphatic obsession with God.”

    I have no such fear. You are lying about atheists again, Hor, I mean Frankness.

    Now that your irrational, illogical tirade is over, please provide some real evidence for your imaginary god other than “that is not happening for Zeus.”

  110. on 28 Jan 2012 at 4:36 pm 110.Anonymous said …

    Frankness, otherwise known as the Horatio.

    You spend an inordinate amount of time trying to bad mouth people who keep asking you to show proof that this magical man in the sky exists.

    Why is that? Why don’t you just show it’s true? Rhetorical, really, as we know it’s all make believe.

    Why is it so important to you that other people believe in your 2000 year old goat-herder superstition? It’s obvious to anyone who thinks about that gods don’t exist.

    No one cares if you want to believe that sky daddy cares about you. It’s idiotic, true, but people believe in crap like The secret too. The thing is, once you start expecting others to take you seriously, or to believe that Jesus was real, that’s when it goes from a quaint and ancient oddity, to a serious mental illnesses.

    Really. Provide this proof that you claim, or deal with the fact that it’s all make believe and take steps to get in touch with reality.

Trackback This Post | Subscribe to the comments through RSS Feed

Leave a Reply