Feed on Posts or Comments 23 December 2014

Christianity &Islam &Judaism &Science Thomas on 26 Apr 2010 12:40 am

Go ahead, explain it

If you are religious, offer your explanation. If you are rational, offer yours:

If this post ends in 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 or 9, then God doesn’t exist…

96 Responses to “Go ahead, explain it”

  1. on 26 Apr 2010 at 9:01 pm 1.asdasd said …

    It’s called a coincidence. Or a fake.

  2. on 27 Apr 2010 at 6:57 am 2.Luna said …

    God loves you so much. You are His beloved child who He treasures above everything else. He loves you so much that sent His Son, Jesus, to die a unimaginably horrible death so that you could could live in Heaven and have everlasting life. When you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, your sin is taken away forever, and through Jesus, you are able to have a direct relationship with God. Jesus is the key to Heaven. When you die and walk to gates of Heaven, hand in hand with Jesus, the gates will be wide open for you. God wants you to be free and not be forced to love Him in the incredibly passionate way He loves you. He gives you the choice to accept Jesus as your Savior and receive eternal life, or reject Jesus and drown in your own sin, dooming you to eternal death. God wants so much to be with you forever in Heaven. He never wants bad things to happen to you. He cannot stand to see you in pain. When you are hurting, He is hurting like you could not imagine. His heart breaks for you every time you turn away from Him because He misses you so much. He will never turn away from you. You can reject Him a trillion times, but He will still love you a trillion times more. When you come back to Him, He is not angry or disappointed in you. He is so overjoyed that He races toward you with tears in His eyes and His arms wide open so that He can sweep you off your feet and hold you. No matter what you have done, God is always ready to forgive you because He is your Father who loves you unconditionally. All he wants is a loving relationship with you, and He will never ever give up seeking your affection. He wants to pour His awesome grace and love over you like a waterfall. God loves you with such a burning passion in His heart, that the fire will remain blazing inside of Him for all eternity. His amazing love and every piece of His heart is yours forever.

    With great respect, from a daughter of God to her brothers and sisters: please, give His beautiful love a chance.

  3. on 27 Apr 2010 at 7:43 am 3.Marcus said …

    @ Luna

    Wow, you certainly seem to know an awful lot about god and what he wants and how he feels. I mean, the depth of your knowledge is truly astonishing.

    Here’s one bit I particularly enjoyed:

    “When you come back to Him, He is not angry or disappointed in you. He is so overjoyed that He races toward you with tears in His eyes and His arms wide open so that He can sweep you off your feet and hold you.”

    Just one teeny-weeny little thing. You know that all this is true how, exactly?

  4. on 27 Apr 2010 at 11:53 am 4.A real-ist said …

    Sounds like Luna(tic) is describing her ideal boyfriend. Keep dreaming, Luna!

  5. on 27 Apr 2010 at 3:28 pm 5.Malfeasant said …

    a graphic such as this would be easy to fake- but not necessary.
    for the most part, people don’t understand probability. A sequence of events can be exceedingly improbable- but that is quite different from impossible. in general, the odds while flipping a coin are 50% that the coin will land heads, 50% tails. but that’s long term. short term, improbable things can happen, that’s the danger of too small of a sample size. you could flip a coin 5 times in a row, and it is fully possible it could come up heads every time. 20 times would be more improbable, but still within the realm of possibility for an ordinary person to observe. then there’s the possibility of the coin landing on its edge. so improbable that rounding error makes it indistinguishable from 0. still, i know someone who claims to have witnessed it firsthand. whether i believe him or not is another matter.
    there are so many of us on this planet, that every so often, something improbable is bound to happen, and occasionally someone will be there to observe and record it. the more improbable, the more attention it is likely to attract. if the more probable occurrence had happened instead, i.e. nothing unusual, who would have noticed?

  6. on 27 Apr 2010 at 4:18 pm 6.aeriph said …

    @Malfeasant

    I agree. There’s not much more to say about the 4chan thread than “coincidence”. Threads like that are fairly popular on 4chan so obviously once in a while this is going to happen.

    Am I right in thinking the probability of them predicting the thread number 4 times in a row is 1 in 10000?

  7. on 05 May 2010 at 1:55 pm 7.Elizabeth Grace Wright said …

    I was forced to go to church during my entire up bringing, but never believed in God–I just didn’t and couldn’t. But over the last year something changed. The following arguments will present my case as to why I have found belief.

    *Life, nor fossilization has ever provided example of one species altering itself into another kind. A bird may evolve, adapting to have a larger or smaller beak, but that bird didn’t come from mammal, and will never become a flower.

    *Evolutionists claim that a series of by chance events stemmed existence as we know it. First, an explosion created the planets, by chance earth had gravitational force and water sustaining life, then bacterial worms evolved into all diverse forms of life currently found on earth, and then only one life form (man) gained dominion over all other creatures, having feelings, a conscience, and free will. It takes more belief to think that all of this occurred by chance than believing in any form of a creator. Because man is so destructive to the earth and its other inhabitants, don’t you think other creatures would have gained the ability to go beyond their programmed actions and overtake man?

    *If everything evolved, why all the beautiful colors? Wouldn’t all of the dominant dark colors, over time, take precedence? Wouldn’t things look a bit more mutated? Wouldn’t survival of the fittest imply that only the strongest type of animal or flower or tree would survive over time? Why the diversity?

    *How does evolution claim the need and the creation of eyes?

    *Evolutionists claim that Dinosaurs became extinct millions of years before humans evolved, yet almost every ancient culture,without access to fossil excavation or stories of these creatures, drew exact depictions of nearly every dinosaur that modern civilizations have come to know through fossils. How had these people, all over the world seen dinosaurs if they no longer existed? Both dinosaur remains and footprints, as well as human bones, hand and footprints have been found within Cretaceous stone.

    *Because of the population growth rate, it’s nearly impossible that the earth be as old as described by evolutionists.

    *Isn’t it ironic that the oldest plant found on earth is exactly the age that the Bible describes the earth as.

    *The Bible has been ridiculed since its existence, yet found within it there has been no source of historical error (but divine accuracy), and no contradictions (but a thousand or more precise predictions).

    *The truth is being masked by those that wish us not to find it. You don’t have to go to church, or pray, or refer to yourself as one with a religious title to believe. All it takes is the want and the allowance of being open to the truth.

  8. on 05 May 2010 at 5:21 pm 8.Observer said …

    #5 Elizabeth- You are even a disgrace to your fellow morons. Your insipid disregard for the meaning of language, either dishonest representation of facts or withering stupidity literally nauseates me.

    Pt. 1 Archeopteryx is a clear transition fossil. Cetacean fossils, with the upward movement of nostrils is another. Evolution does not predict a mammal will change into a flower, nor a bird into a mammal.

    Pt. 2 This is nonsense worthy of a Jehovah’s Witness, but has so much dishonesty and misrepresentation it seems more likely an Asian take on Christianity.

    Pt 3. Diversity? This is precisely what evolution predicts. This was even clear to Darwin.

    pt 4. Eyes being valuable? It is appropriate you find the value of eyes confusing since you choose to forgo all the evidence for evolution that exists in front of your own eyes. Think ( this is probably a stretch for you ) about the science you do not read for starters. I for one, and every other chordate predator I can think of who doesn’t live in dirt or a cave ( such as you Dim Lizzy ), finds their eyes very useful.

    pt 5. Imbecile- I didn’t see any ichthyosaurs, painted on the walls of Lascaux, or for that matter, any other dinosaurs. Where do you get this nonsense? The famous footprint in the K rocks is a scour mark or something akin to it. When you pan away from the selected “print” you see it in a jumble of other divots and digs. Also, that print assumes there were some reasonably competent cobblers working in dino-times. There has never been human bones recovered from K rocks.

    pt 6. Population growth rate disproving the age of the earth? Are you serious? Now creationists are claiming to construct global ecological models able to accurately forecast population trajectories for thousands of years? At best, this is a case of not even knowing, hell, having a clue, of what you don’t know.

    pt 7. What precisely is the age the Bible purports the earth to be? What is the oldest plant found on earth? What irony?

    pt 8. This is pure nonsense. By the fifth day Genesis f*cks-up the account of how birds came before land animals.

    pt 9. You are merely making the argument that ignorance is bliss. Enjoy.

  9. on 05 May 2010 at 5:22 pm 9.Observer said …

    Make the previous #7, not #5.

  10. on 06 May 2010 at 7:33 am 10.Luna said …

    Dear Marcus,
    In the past, I lived a life running away from God, and I tell you the truth, it was a waste of my life. I had no reason to live and nothing to look forward to. When I finally gave God a chance, He gave me hope. At the moment He picked me up and held me, letting His beautiful love surround me. He set me free from my old life and gave my new life. I thought my life would never have any meaning or value, but I was wrong. I realized that I have the choice to experience eternal life and unfailing love without any requirements on my part. I chose to have faith in God, and He gave me purpose. When I took that leap of faith, God healed me. I felt in my soul that I was changing. Even though I did not know what He was doing, I knew in my heart that it was right. For those who choose God, there is meaning in their lives because they have something to look forward to. They will not be just another speck of life on the time line of the universe. Their life will be more than just a microscopic event that occurred to one day be forgotten. They are to live in Heaven even after their time on Earth ends.

    Dear A real-ist,
    I am actually rather clueless and inexperienced when it comes to boys and romance, but I know much about God’s love because I have a strong relationship with Him. His perfect love is more than enough for me.

    I agree with what Elizabeth Grace Wright said. It is a much greater leap of faith to believe that the universe, Earth, and all life just happened than to believe that we were created by God.

  11. on 06 May 2010 at 10:57 am 11.severin said …

    ” It is a much greater leap of faith to believe that the universe, Earth, and all life just happened than to believe that we were created by God.”

    How did god “happened”?

  12. on 06 May 2010 at 5:00 pm 12.japanther said …

    oh the stupid. it burns. Lizzie the Lezzie and Loona can’t answer one question: Why wont god heal amputee unicorns? Unicorns are mentioned as real creatures throughout the bible, and clearly you beleive every word… where are the unicorns?

    And yes that is a photoshopped picture, it was made to troll atheists. This same exact picture has been altered to be against jews, pro rape, pro child porn, etc. The only thing that needed to be changed is the text. TOO EASY. Also, I have seen variations of it like ‘this post will end in 01 02 03… etc’. Successful trolls are successful. Just like how I was trolled by responding to the godbotherers. And I was trolled by this picture by saying “STFU ITS A SHOOP”. That’s what they wanted. But at least now you all know the explanation for this stuff. un4chanatly, we are all doomed to repeat this cycle.

    o u, anon :3

  13. on 07 May 2010 at 3:06 am 13.A real-ist said …

    Luna(tic) says:
    “Dear A real-ist,
    I am actually rather clueless and inexperienced when it comes to boys and romance, but I know much about God’s love because I have a strong relationship with Him. His perfect love is more than enough for me.”

    Sounds like boys and romance are not the only thing you are clueless about. You think you know of a God that has love and that you can have a strong relationship with, but it is just your imagination. Just because it gives you a good feeling, doesn’t make it real. I can dream all day about fucking anyone I choose, but it doesn’t mean it is happening. It is called day dreaming. When you think you are talking to or hearing God, it is just yourself. It is your mind playing tricks on you. I used to be there earlier in my life as well and woke up to reality. I think I would rather live my life knowing what is real than living in a pretend world.

  14. on 07 May 2010 at 7:27 am 14.Luna said …

    Dear severin,
    I am sorry but I do not understand your question.

    Dear japanther,
    I have never read about unicorns in the Bible. Please show me where in the Bible it mentions unicorns.

    Dear A real-ist,
    I have a relationship with my father, mother, siblings, and friends. They are not just in my imagination, and neither is God. He makes things happen in the world around me that let me know He is by my side. I may not be able to see Him with my eyes, but I see Him perfectly in my heart. It is not just a good feeling. God works so gracefully in my life, and gets me through the day no matter how chaotic it has been. I would not be able to live without God to lead me. I know that dreams are not reality. When I pray to God, He gives me what I asked for or whatever it is that I need. He always provides for me. That is not just a dream. God does not speak to me in my mind. He makes things happen throughout my day to lead me. He speaks to me in songs, writing, and through people’s words or actions. He encourages me to speak to those who turn away from Him. He comforts me whenever I am lost or hurting. My relationship with God is very real.
    I was crying in my room earlier, and on the radio, a woman quoted Psalm 34:4. “I sought the Lord, and He answered me; He delivered me from all my fears.” God took my pain away and stopped my tears from falling. He spoke into my life, not my mind.

  15. on 07 May 2010 at 11:32 am 15.Xenon said …

    Luna,

    Good for you. I’m sorry you come here and politely share and have to deal with a lot of slights and ad hominem attacks. I have heard the same sentiments from many other wonderful christian people and have no doubt about what you have experienced.

  16. on 07 May 2010 at 11:48 am 16.A real-ist said …

    “I have a relationship with my father, mother, siblings, and friends. They are not just in my imagination, and neither is God.”

    I never said having a relationship with your father, mother, siblings, and friends was your imagination. I am sure that is real. But God IS your imagination.

    “He speaks to me in songs, writing, and through people’s words or actions.”

    Humans wrote those, not God. Using your emotions or relating to those is just your human mind at work, nothing more.

  17. on 07 May 2010 at 5:28 pm 17.3D said …

    14.Luna said …
    Dear severin,
    I am sorry but I do not understand your question.

    Maybe I can be of some assistance.

    Originally, you wrote:
    “It is a much greater leap of faith to believe that the universe, Earth, and all life just happened than to believe that we were created by God.”

    (Which is not true, anyway… very few atheists believe the universe “just happened”, rather that there is a cause for the universe’s origin that we have not discovered yet. Or, that cause and effect was altered in a way we don’t completely understand at the beginning of time so that the way we understand it is irrelevant. So, you are mischaracterizing the position.)

    Anyway, then Severin asked, if you think it’s a leap of faith to believe that the universe “just happened”, then how did God “happen”? Who created God? You are criticizing the atheist for not having an answer to the question of how everything started, but you have left yourself with the same question. You just inserted God as an intermediary step before getting to the real beginning.

    I hope that explanation helped you understand the problem with your argument! And thanks for posting your insights here.

  18. on 07 May 2010 at 6:32 pm 18.Horatio said …

    Luna,

    Nobody can follow Severin. It just means you are normal. We all pretty much ignore his post since he rambles, they are aimless and he makes up numbers.

  19. on 07 May 2010 at 7:35 pm 19.3D said …

    18.Horatio said …
    “Luna, Nobody can follow Severin. It just means you are normal.”

    I understood him pretty easily. It was just one simple sentence.

    Maybe the problem is with you?

  20. on 07 May 2010 at 10:32 pm 20.East Coast said …

    I’m not sure how I ended up here either, but I’m glad to see some supporters for Luna- count me in!

    I would like to ask someone who vehemently attacks God what their alternative is. A giant ball of cytoplasm exploded and created everything we know in the universe? Where’s YOUR proof? Why would I trust my soul to man-created instruments and interpretations? You can’t control the next moment of your life, but demand that everything that ever happened to humanity must have been rationable and provable. If it’s one thing I knew before truly embarking on my walk with Christ, it’s that people simply cannot fix themselves or the world. They can only rely on God and His goodness. Everything in the world that’s bad, man brought on himself and it will remain that way until the Lord comes back and claims His own.

    I also know from studying the Bible that faith is a gift. God reveals Himself to people when they are truly seeking Him. I would challenge anyone who would put this much work into a website working against God to try for one day, for one hour to believe. Ask God to prove His existence, but ask it earnestly and He will not disappoint you. I challenge you to try God out, even for a moment, and be honest with yourself about the results.

    I pray that you can hear God’s voice and know He’s always there.

  21. on 08 May 2010 at 1:54 am 21.A real-ist said …

    East Coast,
    Where’s YOUR proof that God exists?

    It annoys me that the burden of proof is on us. It should be: ‘You came up with the idea. Why do you believe it?’ I could tell you i’ve got superpowers. But i can’t go up to people saying ‘Prove I can’t fly.’ They’d go: ‘What do you mean? ‘prove you can’t fly?’ Prove you can!!

    “I also know from studying the Bible that faith is a gift.”

    Wow, you must not have studied the bible too hard or maybe you just skipped to the good parts. Did you read about all the murders God demands and committed? Did you read about the talking snakes, someone living in a whale, and the story of the ark that traveled all over the world and grabbed 2 of every species while in the meantime they didn’t eat each other and then the ark put them all back where they came from? Or have you read the very beginning when it talks about God creating the earth where he created light one day and then the sun the next? To conclude all of this, the bible is a book of made up myths by humans…nothing more.

    “I would challenge anyone who would put this much work into a website working against God to try for one day, for one hour to believe. Ask God to prove His existence, but ask it earnestly and He will not disappoint you. I challenge you to try God out, even for a moment, and be honest with yourself about the results.”

    Does being a Christian from my childhood until almost halfway through college count? Sounds like God disappointed me when I tried talking to him all those years. Kind of strange he never answered back. Probably because he doesn’t exist.

  22. on 08 May 2010 at 4:33 am 22.Severin said …

    14 Luna
    “I am sorry but I do not understand your question.”

    I am doing many errors in my English, as it is not my native language, and I am self-tought, sorry.

    So:I understood that you said you did not believe universe and life just happened, but were created by god.

    Now tell us how did god “just happen”. If he created something, he had to exist before he did it (or not, or what?).
    Either he “just happened” or someone creted him, …?

    And of course, enlighten us WHY would god do such a thing like creating universe?

  23. on 08 May 2010 at 8:01 am 23.Severin said …

    18 Horatio
    “… and he (Severin) makes up numbers.”

    Then:
    206 Horatio (Sam Harris 2)
    “3000 new Christians a day in China. Not much of a shift away from religion!”

    Chinese communist government is issuing top secret bulletins on dayly basis for their Communist Party Committee.

    Horatio gets his copy every day.

    Or, maybe the figure was just made up?
    Do you think we are all idiots, and you can just say what you please (and when you need a made up argument to support your bullshits), and we will all just jump on it and swallow it?

    Now you are caught in your own “makings up” (lies).

  24. on 08 May 2010 at 7:53 pm 24.japanther said …

    Dear Looney,

    Among the many translations that include mentions of Unicorns, the one I grew up with was the King James Version. I was recently re-recommended it by an army chaplain as the best english version. He is a Bob Jones graduate, and is fluent in Greek and Hebrew. Anyways, forgive the fallacy of appealing to authority. From Answers in Genises:

    “In addition to Job 39:9–10, the unicorn is mentioned in Numbers 23:22, 24:8; Deuteronomy 33:17; Psalm 22:21, 29:6, 92:10; Isaiah 34:7. Back”

    LINK: http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v2/n1/unicorns-in-bible

    This of course is just one of many obviously mythical creatures mentioned as real animals. Such as Giants, Dragons, talking snakes, talking burning bushes, whatever you want to consider the Behemoth from Jonah (loch ness monster?)…

  25. on 08 May 2010 at 10:08 pm 25.3D said …

    20.East Coast said …
    I would like to ask someone who vehemently attacks God what their alternative is.

    Atheists don’t vehemently attack God. No one here is attacking God because you can’t attack what isn’t there. It would be like vehemently attacking unicorns.

    (Oh wait… bad example, you think those are real too. How about Santa Claus?)

    A giant ball of cytoplasm exploded and created everything we know in the universe? Where’s YOUR proof?

    I don’t know of one person who argues that a giant ball of cytoplasm exploded and created everything we know in the universe. That’s a strawman argument. If you’re looking for evidence in favor of the Big Bang Theory, it’s all over the Internet. Google.

    More importantly though, you’re inadvertently underscoring a fundamental problem often run into by theists. They reject scientific arguments because they *supposedly* lack proof, but then they willingly accept stories about talking snaked and people being made out of clay. Why? Because you are predisposed to accept what your parents and/or pastors taught you, and you make a special exception to lower the burden of proof in those cases, when you would, rightly, apply it in every other case.

    Why would I trust my soul to man-created instruments and interpretations? You can’t control the next moment of your life, but demand that everything that ever happened to humanity must have been rationable and provable.

    Do you drive a car? If you have gotten in the car 500 times, turned the key 500 times, the car started 500 times and started moving 500 times, do you still expect the car to sprout wings and turn into a dragon on turn #501?

    No, you don’t. But this is how your thinking with the Bible operates. You know the way the world works, and you know that if someone claimed to see a burning bush that they are insane, same as I do. But you have convinced yourself that this used to happen in the olden times, when no one was around with a flip cam to record it. Why? Because you’re delusional, and because, most likely, you were indoctrinated at a young age and can’t let go of that occult programming.

    Verifiable repeatable evidence. We have a much better handle on how the universe now than the dumb mooks who wrote the Bible did, because of the scientific method; therefore our interpretation of the universe makes more sense. It’s still not perfect and still evolving, but it’s light years ahead of where it was.

    Case in point: far fewer burnings alive, stonings, and society-approved slavery.

    Join us here in the 21st Century!

    I would challenge anyone who would put this much work into a website working against God to try for one day, for one hour to believe. Ask God to prove His existence, but ask it earnestly and He will not disappoint you. I challenge you to try God out, even for a moment, and be honest with yourself about the results.

    Also, you can hit yourself in the head 400 times with a block of wood and convince yourself that stars and colors are there, too. That doesn’t mean it’s real, but it is very convincing!

    Nor is it a good approach to life to sit down and convince yourself that the most pleasant story you can come up with is the best one (i.e., “God is real, except the horrible things in the Bible which didn’t really happen because it’s a metaphor/out of context”). Solutions arrived at by honest inquiry and scientific experiment are the best, even if they give you uncomfortable or undesired answers.

  26. on 08 May 2010 at 11:32 pm 26.Merlin said …

    “They reject scientific arguments because they *supposedly* lack proof”

    Give me one, just one, scientific theory that disproves God. Man has believed in a deity as far back as we can determine. In order for man to stop believing, you must present evidence that disproves a need for God. The Big Bang, none of the 100 models, can disprove the need for God successfully. That is your only hurdle to have a world free of this deity you so fight against.

  27. on 08 May 2010 at 11:49 pm 27.A real-ist said …

    “Give me one, just one, scientific theory that disproves God.”

    How about the theory that no one has ever truly, really seen, heard, smelt, or felt God. Isn’t that theory good enough? The probably of a God existing while taking that into consideration is the only theory needed. And the bible and people talking to imaginary friends are not real examples of seeing, hearing, smelling, or feeling God.

    Again: It annoys me that the burden of proof is on us. It should be: ‘You came up with the idea. Why do you believe it?’ I could tell you i’ve got superpowers. But i can’t go up to people saying ‘Prove I can’t fly.’ They’d go: ‘What do you mean? ‘prove you can’t fly?’ Prove you can!!

    “Man has believed in a deity as far back as we can determine.”

    The only thing that proves is man didn’t have enough knowledge to base true reality on. Besides, man has also not believed in a deity as far back as we can determine as well, those men just hid in the weeds since they didn’t want to be killed by the believers. Another example is that man also believed the earth was flat for a very long time. Do they still think that? No.

  28. on 09 May 2010 at 12:06 am 28.3D said …

    “Give me one, just one, scientific theory that disproves God.”
    How about the theory that no one has ever truly, really seen, heard, smelt, or felt God. Isn’t that theory good enough? The probably of a God existing while taking that into consideration is the only theory needed. And the bible and people talking to imaginary friends are not real examples of seeing, hearing, smelling, or feeling God.

    Also, he plucked one sentence out of my comment, re-framed it, and argued against something I didn’t say.

    I wasn’t talking about theists rejecting disproofs of God, I was talking about theists rejecting theories about evolution, the Big Bang, the age of the universe, etc. Anything that contradicts what the Bible says.

    They reject these theories, supposedly, because there isn’t enough proof, even though there are reams upon reams of evidence for each theory and they are widely accepted in the scientific community. But when you hold the same standard of proof to their “man was made out of Play-Doh” theory, suddenly they aren’t interested in any burden of scientific proof anymore.

  29. on 09 May 2010 at 1:19 am 29.Merlin said …

    “How about the theory that no one has ever truly, really seen, heard, smelt, or felt God. Isn’t that theory good enough?”

    No, you also do not know that be true.

    “It annoys me that the burden of proof is on us. It should be: ‘You came up with the idea.”

    I didn’t come up with the idea. Maybe the idea has been with us SOOOO long because it is valid. Your theories on origins does not jive on its own and all other theories point to the complexity requiring design. Your hypothesis for atheism is on thin ice.

    “man also believed the earth was flat for a very long time. Do they still think that?”

    The Bible actually speaks of a round earth and we have proof for this theory. You can let it go now.

    “theists rejecting theories about evolution, the Big Bang, the age of the universe, etc.”

    I saw on another thread theist are non-religious. Are they now religious on this thread? Let us just take the BB theory. Which model do you support?

  30. on 09 May 2010 at 3:15 am 30.3D said …

    29.Merlin said …
    “How about the theory that no one has ever truly, really seen, heard, smelt, or felt God. Isn’t that theory good enough?”
    No, you also do not know that be true.
    “It annoys me that the burden of proof is on us. It should be: ‘You came up with the idea.”
    I didn’t come up with the idea. Maybe the idea has been with us SOOOO long because it is valid.

    Islam has also been with us SOOOO long. Egyptian mythology was around quite a while too. And Zeus and company.

    They can’t all be right.

    Your theories on origins does not jive on its own and all other theories point to the complexity requiring design.

    God is pretty complex, I’d imagine. Who designed him? Super-God?

  31. on 09 May 2010 at 7:07 am 31.Severin said …

    26 Merlin
    „The Big Bang, none of the 100 models, can disprove the need for God successfully.“
    The most important thing for you personally is to clear in your mind:
    Was universe „created“ as described in the Bible, OR a god (some god) caused the BB?
    There is no room for both theories in the mind of any person on this earth, with a grain of brain in his/her head.
    Those theories are not compatible, they can NOT exists together, except in a lunatic or retarded mind.
    God caused the BB, THEN (after some 3.5 billion years) he came to earth to create the planet itself, light, plants, man from mud, woman from his rib, talking snakes, talking bushes, then ordered people to burn meat as offerings for him.
    Is THAT what you believe?

    Although absolutely unacceptable for me, I have no problems if someone believes the BB was god’s deed. One who believes such a thing, will, or their successores will, accept science sooner or later, and leave „misterious forces“ as causes of everything.
    Such a belief is PERSONAL PROBLEM, MUCH LESS DANGEROUS FOR SOCIETY THAN EXISTING RELIGIONS.

    The point is that such a believe ABSOLUTELY EXCLUDES BIBLICAL GOD, and all possible gods invented by humans by biblical model.

    The „BB god“ DID NOT leave any words! He DID NOT leave any moral laws for human race. He DID NOT order anything to people, ever.
    Can you say that the Bible is the „word“ of the „BB god“?
    Can you imagine the BB god to order killing of babies and burning of meat for him?
    The BB god was obviously „a higher level god“ than a poor guy who did not know better than to rummage through the mud to find material to “create” a man.

    The „poor guy“, a primitive biblical „god“, VERY similar to humans by his mentality and intelligence, WITHOUT ANY KNOWLEDGE (he was a total ignorant), was OBVIOUSLY MADE UP BY HUMANS.

    Ok, then, make the difference between your personal beliefs AND religion, which is based on the Bible, and on similar bullshit writings, or just legends.
    Can the biblical god, and all biblical bullshits, and ALL RELIGIONS based on such primitive, silly, unargumented, illogical „foundations“, survive in your mind?
    Can you say to yourself: YES, biblical god is the same one who caused the BB?
    In that case nobody can help you.

    Nobody can help you also if you think that the dinosaurs walked on earth together with humans.

  32. on 09 May 2010 at 7:23 am 32.Severin said …

    29 Merlin
    “I didn’t come up with the idea. Maybe the idea has been with us SOOOO long because it is valid.”

    The idea of earth being flat was with us almost as LOOOONG as religion itself. Then, suddenly, VERY RECENTLY (compared to how long religions were present among humans), it appeared wrong!

    Why did’nt we keep believing the earth was flat?

    Of course, organized religion(s) killed people who propagued the idea that erath was not flat, or that sun was not orbiting earth.

    Then, suddenly, the same organized religions, recognized the fact, AFTER scientists proved it, and (of course!) after they first killed and torutred many scientists for their CORRECT claims.

  33. on 09 May 2010 at 7:42 am 33.Severin said …

    26 Merlin
    “The Big Bang, none of the 100 models, can disprove the need for God successfully.”

    NOTHING can disprove existance of god on the formal level.
    Please try to PROVE the claim: a green kettle orbiting a planet in Andromeda galaxy, is the real god who created universe (chistians).
    Then, try to PROVE WRONG if another one says: NO! The kettle was not green, but orange (muslims, or Jews, or Ra-adherents…)
    Those claims are EXACTLY as valid as claims about the biblical god.

    SOMEONE DID came to people with (many and many!) ideas about existance of (many and many!) gods, WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCES, some time ago.
    People were FORCED to believe, but, I admit, their ignorance and primitivism helped many of them to ACCEPT it, and to RELLY BELIEVE in (many and many!) gods.

    Now time came people are not affraid to say what they think, scisnce and logic are on their side, and their “hunger” for evidences is right, justified and logical.
    So it is now the right time the “inventors” of god(s)to offer some evidences for their claims.

    OK then: someone (no matter when it was!) came to me with idea that god exists. I can not formally prove it does not, but the “god theory” does not quite fit in my knowledge, my experiances, knowledge and experiances of other people. It does not fit scientific achievments, everyday life – it fits NOWHERE.
    So, gentlemen, if you want me to believe it, PLEASE GIVE ME EVIDENCES.
    Religion split hairs with evidences for scientific theories, but NEVER offer any evidences for thir own.

    It is time to give us some, otherwise all their claims are pure bullshits.

  34. on 09 May 2010 at 1:56 pm 34.Severin said …

    Severin 33
    “Please try to PROVE the claim…”
    Sorry, try to DISAPROVE it!

  35. on 09 May 2010 at 4:07 pm 35.Merlin said …

    “They can’t all be right.”

    No, but the idea that there IS a creator is common to the vast majority of religions. Amazing how that is so consistent, eh?

    “God is pretty complex, I’d imagine. Who designed him? Super-God?”

    Why could the ultimate creator not be the first cause? If the atheist believe matter could exist forever with no beginning then it should be no stretch that God could, eh? Makes more sense since creation would need intelligence to be so complex.

  36. on 09 May 2010 at 5:17 pm 36.A real-ist said …

    “No, but the idea that there IS a creator is common to the vast majority of religions. Amazing how that is so consistent, eh?”

    That is because the idea of a superior being is a very common idea. Our parents created us, so the idea of another creater is an easy idea to come up with. As humans we create things, so it is easy for one to relate a primate trate of creating things. By ourselves we are one person, so the idea of another thing out there is a common idea. And the idea of many Gods in certain religions could come from the idea that we have more than one parent. See how that works? Another way to look at it is all regligions stemmed from one, evolution of religions just took place.

    “Why could the ultimate creator not be the first cause? If the atheist believe matter could exist forever with no beginning then it should be no stretch that God could, eh? Makes more sense since creation would need intelligence to be so complex.”

    Intelligence comes from learning and seeing things wrong before the right things are found. If God was the first cause, how did he gain intelligence? Also, the universe is just a bunch of randomness once the big bang happened. The complexity of the universe is just billions of years of random things happening until the right situations form. The complexity of living things came from that randomness evolving, which is getting rid of the bad things and keeping the good things. Remember, evolution didn’t happen over night. Many bad designs happened first.

  37. on 09 May 2010 at 5:42 pm 37.japanther said …

    Look Merlin, Luna, East Coast, etc… We are only dicks about this stuff because we have all heard it a million times now. Your arguments were debunked decades ago, and we can repeatedly help you to dismantle them. I was once in your shoes, the only reason I came on certain websites was to ‘find out what those evil godless atheists were saying’ so I could fight them better. It didn’t happen over night, but I had to admit I was wrong about stuff. Like Noah’s Ark, Adam and Eve, first rainbows coming AFTER 33% of world history, etc. This stuff is demonstrably wrong.

    None of us think you are stupid people. We think you are like us. We only get sarcastic like the tone of this whole website when we feel someone repeating our own lies (from our christian past) back at us. We are over those things.

    You should delete some past and make room for more future. There is a better person waiting his turn to be you.

    @merlin,
    The Flat Earth Society is infamously recent, and was solely based in the bible.

    Scientific Theories that disprove ‘god’ are not relevant. They do exist, as math games mostly, but they are not what we care about.

    Scientific Theories that disprove the accounts of a literal interpretation of the BIBLE are only outnumbered by scientific FACTS that disprove such accounts. Pi, the number of legs on an insect, the thousands of logical problems involved with noah, 6000 year old earth, the order of creation in genesis 1, the order of creation in genesis 2, the possibility of living to be 900 years old, people turning into pillars of salt, snakes that talk, bushes that talk while on fire, walking through a desert for 40 years when even a turtle could have crossed it a hundred times, several people reanimating (more than hours passed their death), unicorns giants dragons and behemoths, etc.

  38. on 09 May 2010 at 6:47 pm 38.Merlin said …

    “Our parents created us, so the idea of another creater is an easy idea to come up with.”

    What? Our parents do not “Create”. That is like saying I create electricity every time I plug my computer in the wall. We believe in a creator because we live in a creation.

    “The complexity of the universe is just billions of years of random things happening until the right situations form.”

    Do you see the lunacy of such a statement? If for the next billions of years if I kept throwing sand into a corner I would eventually get lucky enough and form a Dell laptop. Now you see why so few buy into your lunacy. Laptops, cars, boats and F22 raptors do not just happen, they are created. So it is with the universe which is much more complex.

    “If God was the first cause, how did he gain intelligence?”

    Can I just claim billions of random events just happened until the right combination was hit upon? I don’t know but eventually we will know.

    I don’t mean to be a prick about these things. But I have been where you are and I finally realized a self-creating universe is just not a possibility. Sorry, Panther you are going off on some tangent about turtles and dragons and such and it just wasn’t a rabbit worth changing.

  39. on 09 May 2010 at 7:58 pm 39.japanther said …

    Well I did you the favor of reading your posts in their entirety, you could return the favor.

    “Panther you are going off on some tangent about turtles and dragons and such and it just wasn’t a rabbit worth changing.”

    Why would you change a rabbit? I think it is actually you who is guilty of being incoherent.

  40. on 09 May 2010 at 8:00 pm 40.Horatio said …

    “The Flat Earth Society is infamously recent, and was solely based in the bible.’

    Big Cat,

    Define recent Panther. FSM exist as well but I put little stock in there beliefs. The fact that somebody misreads the Bible doesn’t make the Bible wrong no more than someone misinterpreting a scientific theory makes the theory wrong.

    “Scientific Theories that disprove ‘god’ are not relevant. They do exist, as math games mostly, but they are not what we care about.”

    I care and i think them to be quite relevant. Please…..share.

  41. on 09 May 2010 at 8:07 pm 41.Severin said …

    38 Merlin
    “…a self-creating universe is just not a possibility”

    Fine!
    I have feeling you ARE recognizing the BB as the beginning of the universe (do you?), but as a deed of “a” god, not as a self-occured event.
    Why don’t you enlighten us about that “a” (a god)?
    Whi was it?
    Was it, by your opinion, the biblical god?
    Another god?
    Or was it the same one?

    I honestly say what I think here all the time, risking to be attacked and offended (which I frequently was, but who cares), why don’t you?
    This is not a type of debate about “who is more clever” or “whose father is stronger”, or “whose is bigger”, but an extraordinary interesting debate which includes (or should include) only conflict of arguments, not of people.
    It is not a “man to man” but an exciting “idea to idea” struggle.

  42. on 09 May 2010 at 8:14 pm 42.Severin said …

    35 Merlin
    “Why could the ultimate creator not be the first cause?”

    First cause of WHAT?
    Of earth and A+E (made from mud/rib – you can not call it “creation”, but a manufacture)
    or
    of the matter, enrgy, starting by the BB?

    Or both?

  43. on 09 May 2010 at 8:45 pm 43.A real-ist said …

    “Our parents do not “Create”. That is like saying I create electricity every time I plug my computer in the wall.”

    Your dad put his sperm into your mother’s egg and that turned into you. Their decision to do that created you, am I right? Just like your God decided to wave his magic wand and put things he had together.

    “If for the next billions of years if I kept throwing sand into a corner I would eventually get lucky enough and form a Dell laptop.”

    Sand is natural, computers are not. Humans combined many natural things together a certain way that could not be done naturally to create the non-natural things. The natural things we see today are the possible random combinations that could happen without design. Design is needed to create the non-natural things like your laptop. Besides, with your theory, sand is only one element, you would need to combine more than one to make any kind of change.

  44. on 09 May 2010 at 9:17 pm 44.Merlin said …

    “Their decision to do that created you, am I right?”

    Uh, no…he didn’t make the sperm or the egg, he didn’t make it swim up the canal and he didn’t make it penetrate the egg and didn’t begin the long process of cell replication.

    What am I debating with a Middle school kid? There is a difference between having sex and creating life.

    Do you believe you create electricity when you plug in your computer? I’m just curious on who I am dealing with here?

    “Humans combined many natural things together a certain way that could not be done naturally to create the non-natural things”

    Why? Billions of years, random processses, some luck and kablamm! A computer! You are correct of course…..
    Yes, elements that were already on earth in natural form…..consequently intelligence took those elements and turned them into things useful to mankind. They did not just randomly form by chance.

    You are doing well, you are half way home!

    “sand is only one element, you would need to combine more than one to make any kind of change.”

    Ok, throw in some lightning and lead.

  45. on 09 May 2010 at 10:45 pm 45.A real-ist said …

    “Do you believe you create electricity when you plug in your computer?”

    Um, yeah, that is what happens. You create that electric current by doing that action. Use whatever word you would like to substitute, such as create, produce, or generate.

    “Billions of years, random processses, some luck and kablamm! A computer!”

    It is called many years of scientific advancements that created the computer. Do you know what scientific advancement means, or do I need to spell it out for you?

    If God created the natural elements through intelligent design then why didn’t he just create computers for us to find instead of us having to design the computer? Or did God mind control us like a puppet master to create the computer?

  46. on 09 May 2010 at 10:47 pm 46.3D said …

    35.Merlin said…

    Why could the ultimate creator not be the first cause? If the atheist believe matter could exist forever with no beginning then it should be no stretch that God could, eh? Makes more sense since creation would need intelligence to be so complex.

    Unfortunately, that demolishes your prior argument.

    You said that all complexity requires a creator. There’s nothing more complex than God, but you throw a big honking asterisk onto God, who for some reason, is allowed to be complex without a creator. Why? Who knows. I guess you abandon logic when it’s inconvenient?

  47. on 09 May 2010 at 11:02 pm 47.3D said …

    44.Merlin said…

    “Their decision to do that created you, am I right?”
    Uh, no…he [your father] didn’t make the sperm or the egg, he didn’t make it swim up the canal and he didn’t make it penetrate the egg and didn’t begin the long process of cell replication.

    He didn’t? Then who did, the mailman?

    What am I debating with a Middle school kid? There is a difference between having sex and creating life.

    You’re right. Having sex with a condom on does not create life.

    Shoot a few million spermatozoa toward an ovum and you got a pretty good shot, though.

    Do you believe you create electricity when you plug in your computer? I’m just curious on who I am dealing with here?

    That depends, was the electricity created inside your balls from chemicals and hormones? If so, yes.

    Why? Billions of years, random processses, some luck and kablamm! A computer!

    Actually no, that’s your argument. Some clay, a big hand reaching down from the sky, and KABLAM! A person.

    And no, science hasn’t answered definitively how the first cell got there yet. But, then again, no answer is better than “people come from magical Play-Doh”.

    Yes, elements that were already on earth in natural form…..consequently intelligence took those elements and turned them into things useful to mankind. They did not just randomly form by chance.

    How did God form? Since he is pretty complex, and all. By chance?

  48. on 09 May 2010 at 11:21 pm 48.Horatio said …

    LOL, 3D and Realist are now attempting to claim they have created life and electricity?

    If you are creating the life then why don’t you guys do something about all the short-comings of man’s design you complained about earlier!

    If you can create electricity could you shoot some to my house so I don’t have the power bill any longer!

    Outstanding!

    Maybe they could be the new superhero team, Spermatozoa and Sackman!

    If God formed or was created, he could not be the first cause genius. You need to do some googling on fist cause.

  49. on 10 May 2010 at 12:02 am 49.A real-ist said …

    “If you can create electricity could you shoot some to my house so I don’t have the power bill any longer!”

    Put a windmill in your yard if you want another option besides paying for power, dumbass! You will create power by using the windmill.

    “3D and Realist are now attempting to claim they have created life and electricity?”

    I guess you guys don’t know the difference between the words create and design. We are not claiming we designed life. Random evolution took care of the design part. But by fucking, that creates the life.

    “If God formed or was created, he could not be the first cause genius. You need to do some googling on fist cause.”

    The whole point there is that we are saying God was not the first cause. If God was the real first cause then he had to have been created at some point as well since you are saying he is inteligent. Inteligence has to be formed, it can’t be the first thing. The Big Bang wasn’t inteligent. It was a bunch of random luck that caused the complex design we have today.

  50. on 10 May 2010 at 12:57 pm 50.PowerAid said …

    “The Big Bang wasn’t intelligent. It was a bunch of random luck that caused the complex design we have today.”

    Simple to complex never happens on its own. Actually, through mircoevolution we see species losing information as they evolve from one form of dog to another form of dog. The dog never becomes more complex.

    Power is developed through coils of wire rotating through a magnetic field. The physical laws of electromagnetism is what actually creates electricity. Someone utilizing electricity by plugging their electric razor in to wall is not creating, they are only plugging into the potential (this case 120V)that is viable to them at that location.

    Windmills actually work in very few areas of the US on a consistent basis.

  51. on 14 May 2010 at 7:26 am 51.jenny said …

    science and religion are tied to each other. modern science, like new vaccines, are the new miracles. fake robotic bodyparts are the answered prayers for amputees. if people would stop hating on each other for what they believe is right and actually be open minded on important issues like science and religion then our world would be a better place

  52. on 14 May 2010 at 7:31 am 52.jenny said …

    also…the guy that calls himself “A-real-ist” is a total jerk

  53. on 14 May 2010 at 12:04 pm 53.A real-ist said …

    Why, I am a jerk because I am trying to show that your theories are wrong?

    “fake robotic bodyparts are the answered prayers for amputees.”

    So it takes thousands of years and many many generations to answer prayers? Wow, God acted quickly to form the earth, but not so quickly in other ways. hmmmm…..

    “if people would stop hating on each other for what they believe is right and actually be open minded on important issues like science and religion then our world would be a better place”

    Seems like all the wars in the world are because one type of religion disagrees with other types. Where are the wars between the religious and non-religious?

  54. on 14 May 2010 at 1:11 pm 54.Corey said …

    Dear real-ist,

    I’m sure by now, since you know a reasonable amount about God’s promises, that you know how salvation works and mainly everything that it offers. If so, then tell me how salvation isn’t better than anything this world has to offer. God is not ruled by time and humanity’s suffering here on earth was caused by our own sinful nature, not the workings of God. Do recall that when God created the universe, it was in the abscense of sin. Death and pain were channelled through sin which was created by man, not God. Blaming God for earthly problems is as incorrect as, for example, I buying a new car, driving it through a red light, and broad-siding and killing another human being, and saying that it was the manufacturers fault. How can it be ther creator’s fault if I am the one who chose not to stop. How can it be God’s fault for our problems if humanity is the one that commits the sin. Humanity itself is responsible for all of its own problems, NOT GOD!

  55. on 14 May 2010 at 1:20 pm 55.Horatio said …

    “The Big Bang wasn’t inteligent. It was a bunch of random luck that caused the complex design we have today.”

    Real, you will believe anything dude! Read post #50. Become a true realist and see your scenario is impossible on its own merit.

  56. on 14 May 2010 at 2:49 pm 56.Severin said …

    51 Jenny
    “science and religion are tied to each other. modern science, like new vaccines, are the new miracles.”

    Why then your god performed circus with making wine from water?
    Why did’nt he do miracles such as vaccines, GPS…

  57. on 14 May 2010 at 2:53 pm 57.Severin said …

    53 A Real-ist (to Jenny)
    “So it takes thousands of years and many many generations to answer prayers?”

    And after thousend of years, what amputees can get from god? A fake!

  58. on 14 May 2010 at 3:24 pm 58.3D said …

    53.A real-ist said …
    Why, I am a jerk because I am trying to show that your theories are wrong?
    “fake robotic bodyparts are the answered prayers for amputees.”
    So it takes thousands of years and many many generations to answer prayers? Wow, God acted quickly to form the earth, but not so quickly in other ways. hmmmm…..

    Yeah, I guess if you were an amputee who happened to be born in 1720, before robotic fake body parts, and you prayed and prayed, God said “screw you!” But now that science figured out robotics, on its own, without any road map from God, he suddenly felt like answering prayers about amputated limbs.

    It never ceases to amaze me how these guys will take any glorious achievement of their fellow human beings, and graft it onto God. But when human beings do something horrible that God directly says to do in the Bible, like kill homosexuals, they blame the people and not the religion.

  59. on 14 May 2010 at 3:37 pm 59.3D said …

    54.Corey said …
    Blaming God for earthly problems is as incorrect as, for example, I buying a new car, driving it through a red light, and broad-siding and killing another human being, and saying that it was the manufacturers fault. How can it be ther creator’s fault if I am the one who chose not to stop.

    It depends. If you choose to run the red light, it’s your fault. But if the car manufacturer made the car with faulty brakes, then it’s the creator’s fault.

    Similarly, if God made people as “sinners” (as the Bible says he did), then it’s God’s fault when they sin.

    Either (A) he is an incompetent loser at designing people, or (B) he likes to see people fail the “test” and send them to hell.

    (Based on his love of the smell of burning flesh depicted in the Bible, and the repetetive human slaughters in the Bible, I think it’s “B”. He just wants to see all of us roast in flames forever because he likes burning flesh and carnage.)

    How can it be God’s fault for our problems if humanity is the one that commits the sin. Humanity itself is responsible for all of its own problems, NOT GOD!

    Because the universe is different from a car dealership. The car maker did not design the red light, or the rules of crosswalks; he did not design our bodies that can die from hitting a car, or what happens to you as punishment if you murder someone. God did ALL of that.

    God designed the system, God set it in motion, and God (according to you) knew the future outcomes. So, he knew he’d be sending the majority of humanity to roast in hell, and still designed it that way.

    So yes, it’s totally his fault, since he could have changed the system at any time on his whim.

  60. on 14 May 2010 at 3:53 pm 60.observer said …

    Hor&PowerAid -

    The ignorance displayed on this blog is breathtaking. Hor, you are a an old-hand at saying idiotic things. PowerAid, your dog example makes no sense, but if you are trying to say that information is continually lost during evolution, this is observably incorrect, even within a time period of less than 40 years.

    Consider the newly emergent weeds that are now immune to Monsanto’s Round Up herbicide. Roughly forty generations of weeds, and Agent Orange’s more successful descendent is losing its power. How is this information lost? This is a clear example of a species, in a very short time, overcoming the greatest obstacle to its existence ever in a very short time.

    The supernaturalists on this blog repeatedly demonstrate nearly complete ignorance of science, or the concepts that have arisen as a result of science. Something that might help on the notion of complexity would be to do some reading on Prigogine – he is one of the pioneers of autocatalysis and self-organizing systems. Few on this blog would be able to follow his academic publications since they require pretty advanced math and a deep understanding of thermodynamics. As his stuff is and was difficult even for professionals, not as much research along the lines of his has been done as one would hope, but with better computation more is happening. Nevertheless, he wrote a book in the twilight of his career for the more casual readers which spells out his ideas, and how perceived order/complexity comes from randomness. If any theist on this blog is serious about learning rather than trying to support their obviously simple and primitive childlike beliefs with nonsensical arguments, they will do a bit of research and try to learn something which will open up the world just a wee bit for them.

  61. on 14 May 2010 at 4:41 pm 61.DWH said …

    To A real-ist, Corey and the rest of you who are gathered at this table: I wish I knew how to rewind this blog to pick up the commentary after I went to bad at 2:40am EST. Anyone out there who can assist me with this technical question. Thx.

  62. on 15 May 2010 at 2:09 am 62.A real-ist said …

    DWH,
    Use your curser and scroll up and down. You can read everything said. I thought I told you previously that this isn’t a chat room format.

    “I’m sure by now, since you know a reasonable amount about God’s promises, that you know how salvation works and mainly everything that it offers.”

    Corey,
    You do realize that I don’t believe God exists, so something that doesn’t exist can’t be capable of anything.

    “Simple to complex never happens on its own.”

    It is called evolution for living things and random luck for non-living things. Earth is lucky that we are a certain distance from a sun. Other planets are not so lucky.

    “Real, you will believe anything dude!” says Hor.

    Um, actually it is you that will believe anything. I look at things based on proof. You don’t. You believe a God exists when there is no proof. Why do you believe? Because people told you so and it sounds neat, which means you will believe anything.

  63. on 15 May 2010 at 2:12 am 63.A real-ist said …

    P.S. to DWH,

    Recent posts are in the right hand column.

  64. on 16 May 2010 at 12:07 am 64.Corey said …

    okay, so tell me this… you say that the energy existed in some different form before the big bang happened. Energy cannot create itself either, so there had to be some higher power that we cannot understand that created the energy to form the big bang.

    In order for our galaxy to not be completely destroyed by the expansion of the galaxy, it would have to be the center of the universe, and the big bang theory strictly states that there is no center to the universe. How do you explain this?

  65. on 16 May 2010 at 4:36 am 65.jenny said …

    ok fine!!!! maybe miracles dnt always happen to good people. but am pretty sure that god has a good reason for why he wants some people to be amputees. maybe he wants them to appreciate life more than the rest of us. god has a purpose for everything. is just that when we are religious and bad things happen to us we get so so mad and we stop believing.that we start thinking god is bs!!! but He is not. you’ve got to sit down and analyze your life, then maybe you’ll realize why god wanted that to happen to you.

  66. on 16 May 2010 at 6:23 am 66.Severin said …

    301 Corey
    “A very little percentage of it is made of water and hydrogen.”

    What is your point?
    All 100% of the matter you are taking from your tap is water.
    At the same time a very little % of your kitchen table (mobile phone, car…) is made of water.
    So – what? Where is the point? Do the a.m facts prove god exists, or does not exist, or what?

    Why don’t you take some search of your own? You can find many answers to your dilemmas in literature, Internet, TV…

  67. on 16 May 2010 at 11:24 am 67.Severin said …

    64 Corey
    “Energy cannot create itself either, so there had to be some higher power that we cannot understand that created the energy to form the big bang.”

    WHY should enrgy be „created“ at all?
    As matter = energy, just tell me WHY is matter/energy a worse candidate to be self-existing than a god.
    You may, if you wish, understand that matter/energy = god: it just exists, without being created, without reason, and will exist for ever, changing its forms through time.
    WHY is it necessary matter/energy to be created?
    It (matter/energy) existed before the BB in some form, then transfeed to another form in an explosion and created universe, which STRICTLY foloows laws of physics, mathematics, chemistry, which are built-in it, with NO EXCEPTION.
    In what form matter/energy existed before the BB occured, is unknown untill now, I admit it, but that hole in our knowledge does not necessaryly bring a god on scene! It is, for now, UNEXPLAINED, it is not INEXPLICABLE!
    Just recall how many unexplained things existed only a few years (decades, centuries) ago! Only a century or two ago people had no idea about what causes the TBC. Then they LEARNED it was caused by a sort of microorganisms. Did the hole in our knowledge about TBC make the TBC divine?
    Only a century or two ago people did not know water is made of hydrogen and oxygen!

    So, if we do not know yet what was before the BB, we SHALL LEARN it. The Large Hadron Colider (CERN), or some other device, will show it sooner or later. Very clever and very educated scientists will explain it for us.
    AND (!) they will – as they always do! – explain it in a way that FIT existing knowledge, that IS CONNECTED to existing theories, that FIT reality in which we are living.
    They will NOT invent gods to cover the holes in their knowledge. If they do not know something, (unlike priests who have ready answers for everything), scientists will say honestly: we do not know it yet, but WAIT! We SHALL know it!
    What is so illogical and unacceptable in such a construction?

    Ignorance is not excuse for imposing „higher power“.

    God kneading mud to „create“ man, without any knowledge about danger of inbreeding (so he allowed incestous mating to spread human race!), without any knowledge of ANYTHING, fits nowhere!
    Such a god was easyly imposed to societies which had no knowledge of anythting at all.
    And, of course, he (that god) was the EXACT PICTURE OF SOCIETY OF THAT TIME:
    he knew nothing about dangers of inbreeding. He knew nothing about genes. He knew nothing about SIMPLE HYGIENE – try to find him teaching people how to keep remaining healthy by maintainig their hygiene! But, (oh yes!), he DID teach them to kill, and HOW to kill, (in details: by stoning them on their father’s treshold!) non-virgin brides!

    Today’s lazy ignorants taught by educated MEN (NOT by god, NOT by Bible) how to maintain hygiene, how to use their mobile phones, how to heal TBC, how to brak atoms to produce electricity (etc…) are trying to find more „sofisticated arguments“ to cover their ignorance and their lazyness to learn.
    It makes them ridiculous in eyes of people with average education. Evn in eyes of uneducated, but intelligent people. They are mocking them.

    Holes in our knowledge are not healed by trying to patch them with more ignorance.
    The “logic”: “if you can not explain it, call it a god, and everything is solved” is ridiculous today.

    It is more creative to LEARN and to THINK instead.

  68. on 16 May 2010 at 7:54 pm 68.Severin said …

    65 Jenny
    “but am pretty sure that god has a good reason for why he wants some people to be amputees.“

    Could you please enlighten us and try to figure out some reasons for us?

    Not only about amputees:
    What resons could make god to grant a preyer of a woman looking for her lost dog, and to neglect preyer of hungry children who die from minute to minute?
    Can you imagine reasons why god allowed fascist and communist regimes to brutally kill and torture millions of innocent people, including millions of children
    What could be reason god allowed his own PR (church) to kill (burn) and torture millions of innocent people (Inquisition)
    Why (reason?) god allowed the same PR of him to suppress science for centuries by brutal force and to prosecute and kill (burn alive) scientists (Gallileo, Gordano Bruno,….)
    What a „superior“ reason made god to order killing of children and taking virgin young girls to slavery (Bible)

    Do you, dear Jenny, take us for idiots?
    God has his reasons to do/order/tollerate terrible crimes, only we are too stupid to understand his reasons – or what?
    Why doesn’t he do only good deeds to make us glorify him instead of searching for excuses for his lunacy?

    There is no reason, beacase there is no god.
    Human race did all things listed above to itself, and is the only creator of its destiny.

  69. on 17 May 2010 at 4:39 am 69.A real-ist said …

    Let’s just take for arguments sake that a God did create the universe. (I don’t think so, of course) But if one did, how does that translate into religions? For example, if a God created the universe, how does that mean we have an afterlife? Why would it mean that a God is watching over us? What if he just created the universe and left it alone? So even if you truly believe a God had to create the universe because we had to be created from something, why does that mean those other things about religions are true? Just something for you believers to ponder.

  70. on 04 Jun 2010 at 8:28 pm 70.reader said …

    ive been reading this thing pretty blankely. as far is i can understand you guys (about the same 6 or 7 people) have been turning eachothers ideas and typings around and about for quite awhile.
    1. i am a theist
    2. you can prove that god does not exist
    3. many believiers constantly defy the bible and its teachings, have you sold everything you own? when was the last time you looked at another woman/man? did you gouge your eye out? probably not
    4. back to 2, the bible constantly says that if you pray in the name of jebus and you have good intent… like curing cancer forever to those who deserve it your prayer will be answered and heard, there is no “it is not gods will” it clearly states that if you pray god will make it a reality, there is no middle ground. however the prayer will not come true, cancer will not be cured nomatter how much you pray. anytime a prayer does come true it is merely coincidence or at fault of something else, like medicine. it is just your brain making up excuses to rationalze something that goes against everything that has ever been taught to you by your parents/pasture etc.
    5. if your prayer does not come to be that means that god lied… god the perfect noble being lied.
    6. if you talk to a theoligan he/she will say that it wasnt gods will that it was implied thatyour prayer wasnt going to be answered, but why doesnt it say in the bible “i god hereby do not devote myself to answering any prayer that may come across me” why does the perfect being not make the bible say that instead of having theologins ateampt to interperate that which mere mortals cant understand even though it says it plain and clear and black and white in the bible?
    pointbeing god is a fake being created for your need to have a higher power cpntrolling you.
    also why did god wait so long to reveal himself? what about the ather religions before him? are they all the believers of those religions doomed to hell?
    please… just think about this and you will realize (as long as your a sain un baist thinking human being) that god is merely a figment of your imagination and a delusion

  71. on 04 Jun 2010 at 8:47 pm 71.Corey said …

    God gives everyone his or her talents!!

    If God gives us our talents or “gifts” so to speak, he gives us to them for a reason. Using our gifts to help others is what they are solely meant for. One good example is a doctor using his gift of diagnosing a patient; a very simple gift, and yet he helps to keep that person living. Yes, he did get the knowledge to diagnose someone from college and later years of high school, but God gave him the gift to be good at it. God also gave him the want to do what he took pleasure in. He took pleasure in becoming a doctor, so that’s what he did. You can most definitely call these gifts an answer to prayers, can’t you? If someone prays to God for healing and good health, then he or she goes to the doctor, gets the diagnosis, and gets medicine to get well, that would be an answered prayer because God gave that doctor the gift to heal people.

    In fact, anything that was made by man that solved a problem was and is a miracle from God because God gave those men and women the ability/talent/gift from the Holy Spirit to make it.

    The bible says, “seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and other things will be added to you.”

    What this means is…to the extent that a person’s character has become mature with their motives for prayer, being unselfish, then god can help that person script prayers that are unselfish. Those prayers constitute seeking first the kingdom of god, those prayers accurately display God’s transforming power to mature their character, thus this person does not pray amiss or selfishly. Their prayers are not emotionally based but solution-focused, considering everyones best interest and not just their own. These prayers, having been washed of selfish motives, God will endorse and move among the earth to perform them.

  72. on 04 Jun 2010 at 8:55 pm 72.Anonymous said …

    @Corey
    It seems that God took his time in answering those prayers and giving those gifts.

  73. on 04 Jun 2010 at 9:28 pm 73.reader said …

    to corey
    so what your saying is that god has a plan for us and has predicted our life fom our beginings to our end and has predetermined everything about us?
    if that were true, god has predetermined that someones talent be killing others, torturing, tricking, and many others. god has pre determined that certain men (although i greatly take discomfort in talking about this) enjoy raping, and on another note if god has predetermined your birth he pre determined the rape to, meaning that god wanted the rapist to have a child. also if god predetermines every death to, because it is part of “his plan” god has predetermined every murder, death by starvation, and yes abortion.

  74. on 04 Jun 2010 at 9:34 pm 74.reader said …

    also forgot to mention, if god has predeetermined, lets say that a christian out of anger hits you with his/her car for speaking about god in a negative way, then god had predecided that you will burn in hell because your a theist and how and when you died, the cardriver was merely doing gods will and should be celbrated right?

  75. on 04 Jun 2010 at 9:55 pm 75.Corey said …

    God predestined life, he doesn’t predestine sin. All of the things u mentioned like rape and murder are all sins, he doesn’t predestine those. He predestines life, not how life is brought into the world.

    Every Christian is supposed to love and encourage nonbelievers, not act against them for their beliefs.

  76. on 04 Jun 2010 at 10:56 pm 76.reader said …

    so god predestined life… as in what makes you… so your parents are what make you you right? so for the specific you your father and mother had to relate, wether or not one af the participants was willing, and also to your last statement, doesn’t mean they don’t

  77. on 04 Jun 2010 at 10:58 pm 77.reader said …

    and alos to the predestining stuff, what you said was “God gives us our talents or “gifts” so to speak, he gives us to them for a reason.” so if god makes someone talented at killing he does it for a reason right?

  78. on 04 Jun 2010 at 11:24 pm 78.Corey said …

    Killing is a sin, God is not connected with evil. A talent is a good gift given from the holy spirit, and sin is created by our own evil nature, not by God.

    And like I said before, God predestines life, he doesn’t predestine how life is brought into the world. Whether life is brought in by one man and woman or by the same man and another woman does not matter.

    A christian is a sinful being just like the rest of the world. Christians can fall into temptation through sin and make the unchristianly choice, but that doesn’t mean God was the one who caused it, that just means that the Christian fell into temptation through the devil.

  79. on 05 Jun 2010 at 12:05 am 79.reader said …

    alright as much fun as this is… the arguement is completely pointless neither side is going to change their decision, just curious, what do you think about other religions like muslim, morman, etc, do you think that their ideas are completely idiotic? yes or no, i want a straight forward answer, no “well i believe that the their heart is pointed in the right direction of god, their certain beliefs just arn’t quite right, i want a straight forward answer about what you think about things like a man finding golden plates, and magical flying horses etc. etc.

  80. on 05 Jun 2010 at 2:36 am 80.Corey said …

    I haven’t exactly read much into the Mormon religion but one thing I do disagree with about the Muslim religion is that they expect worldly pleasures like virgins in heaven. Their faith has also been twisted by the things the Koran says their god has done. They say that good and bad do not apply to Allah, which gives them the right to think good and right does not apply to them. Why do u think they had no problem with blowing up the world trade center? Because they thought that their god would appreciate them destroying thousands of people they didn’t like!!!

  81. on 05 Jun 2010 at 2:40 am 81.reader said …

    fair enough, ive often heard about sexism and proslavery arguements about god, what about that? just curious

  82. on 05 Jun 2010 at 3:41 am 82.Corey said …

    Well, as far as sexism goes, I don’t really think that God was ever sexist. There is a sang that I really like that goes as such:

    God made when from the rib, not from the feet to be walked on, not from the head to be superior, but from the side to be equal and under the arm to be comforted and loved.

    What you have to understand is that back then, the men usually did all the work and the women took care of the house. In reality, women were made to keep men company, but don’t take this the wrong way. God loves every human being the same. He loves no human more than another. and like the quote from above, I believe that god made women as such to be equal. Yes, my religion, christianity, and theism in general, goes off of quite a bit of faith, but taking the knowledge the bible gives us that god is all-powerful, all-loving, and all-knowing, we have faith that God loves everyone and everything. God does not hold biases against anyone but the devil. since God holds no biases, then he has nothing against women or men.

    As for God being Pro-slavery…God did not put his people in slavery, he took them out of slavery. The old testament talks a lot about servants, right? Well, in many verses the bible states that these servants were paid. Slaves are not paid. The bible also states that many servants were on good terms with their masters. Slaves usually didn’t form a bond with their masters, at least they don’t in the form of slavery that our country only recently can call “the past.” Servants back then were usually under a contract for a certain amount of years, and they were able to choose between staying or leaving after their term was up. So those who say that God was Pro-slavery, were misunderstanding the bible. Also, the slavery that was mentioned in the bible, such as the egyptians, was not caused by god. People put other people in slavery, not god.

  83. on 05 Jun 2010 at 3:42 am 83.Corey said …

    2nd paragraph, “when” should be “women” sorry

  84. on 05 Jun 2010 at 3:45 am 84.reader said …

    the main reason people believe in god is because we currently have no concrete proof of how we began, so we feel the need for a creator, im not saying that god is abad thing just that sometimes people get so caught up in it that they are harming others. i understand that many christians dont fully believe in god but are afraid of hell >:( but others get so caught up in the extra mumbo jumbo that they forget about whats important about life. believe in god, thats your choice, its not a bad safty net, but dont let it consume your life, please note that this is my last observation for awhile so check back in about a month or so

  85. on 05 Jun 2010 at 4:02 am 85.Corey said …

    One more thing. There are a lot of things that science or religion cannot explain. But if you are really not sure what to believe in, which it seems like you are if you are curious enough to ask about god, then I highly recommend looking at this website. It uses nothing but science and reasoning to explain how God is supported by science. I would not recommend any other source more than this, in fact, it is the main source for most of my answers now. here it is.

    http://www.icr.org/

    this is the institute for creation research’s home page. They have an enormous amount of evidence which has been offered up by many professionals and college students explain almost every question you could possibly have.

    Many people on this blog have been very quick to insult me on how i think I know it all. But I can assure you that someone that is as determined as me to show the world how much they really don’t know about the “god side” of life even needs help sometimes. Maybe you didn’t know this, but the main reason people on this blog make fun of me is because I am only 17 and am still in high school. The call me inexperienced and a waste of a young man like myself because I believe in what they think is nonsense.

    There have been many times that I would have liked to have completely blown up on some of these selfish jerks on here, but I haven’t because God doesn’t want christians like myself to sink down to their level and be just as immature as they are. He wants me to use the knowledge that I have to spread His word to as many people as possible. I really appreciate you being kind and opening your ear to what I have to say, and I encourage you to comment and ask questions more often because both Atheists and Theists have good arguments to offer up, but its all up to you to see through the cloud of bs and choose your own way based on your own opinion.

    Once again, Thank you very much.

    -Corey

  86. on 05 Jun 2010 at 9:02 am 86.Severin said …

    78 Corey
    “Killing is a sin, God is not connected with evil.”

    No, except in some few dozen or more of his direct orders and detailed instructions about how to masacre children, to rob people, to destroy their homes, to rape women, to kill desobediant children, to stone brides deflowered before the first night of marriage (on the tresholds of their fathers!)…yes, indeed, not many brutal crimes done by god.

    And, of course, HIS hands are clean! He did not do any of those terrible crimes personally!
    He only ordered people to do this in his name. Consequently, people are bad, god is good!
    Who forced them to obey him!.

    All from NIV Bible!

  87. on 05 Jun 2010 at 10:14 am 87.Severin said …

    63 Corey
    „Over 1,600 years later, Genesis 8:15 records that a pair of each land-dwelling animal “wherein is the breath of life”—again including dinosaurs—were taken aboard an ark that would have held over 101,000 square feet of floor space. This ensured that a remnant would be preserved through the worldwide watery destruction that fossilized many pre-Flood dinosaurs.“

    Are you kidding us or yourself?

    Please, Corey, do not make people laughing at you!
    Do not make fool of yourself! Do not allow somebody to make you fool!

    101,000 sq feet is a surface having dimensions of 100 feet x 1,010 feet (it is something about 30.5 m x 308.05 m), or, if the boat seems to you too narrow that way, you can take it as 45 m x 208.5 m, or 55 m x 170.6 m, it gives always the same No. of sq feet or sq meters (some 9383.2 sq meters).
    A football playground (European football) is less than 7,500 sq meters or 80,729 sq feet!
    Now put a pair of tiranosaurus rex there (some 40 feet long, each), together with all other animals! They would eat them or masacre them all in matter of minutes.

    Forget the t. rex for a maoment, and put on 100,000 sq feet a pair of each:

    Argentinosaurus (130 feet/110 tons)
    Paralititan (114 feet, 80 tons)
    Diplodocus (92 feet, 60 tons)
    Brachinosaurus (43 feet)
    Sauroposeidon (59 feet)

    Etc, etc, some 1200 species of dinosaurus known today (fossils found).

    Then add SEVERAL TENS OF THOUSANDS of pairs of animals able to mate and have descendants ONLY within their own species: kengoroos, cows, horses, camels, lamas, sheep, goats, gazelles (MANY secies!),…..what about bees? If everything was flooded, HOW did bees survived? You think they were able to keep themselves in the air for 40 days? Ants? Hedgehogs? Rats? Beavers? Monkeys (many species!). Lemurs? Platypus? Koalas? Pigs? Tasmanian devil? Lions, tigers, wolfs, foxes, bears, armadillos, rhinoceros, elephants, hippopotamus, buffalos, polar bears, pandas, …..
    What about birds? You think they were able to fly for 40 days without landing anywhere?

    AND, of course, FOOD for all of them for 40 days!

    All on 100,000 sq feet?

    I think some 10,000,000 sq. Feet would NOT do the job!

    Ooops! I forgot god did not know anything about tasmanian devil and armadillo, coalas and pandas!

    He did not know anything about dinosaurs either!

  88. on 05 Jun 2010 at 10:24 am 88.Severin said …

    63 Corey
    And, of course, god AGAIN planned to spread the life all over the earth BY INCESTOUS MATING, after the flood!

    Didn’t he mention ONE PAIR OF EACH ANIMAL?
    He REPEATED his huge mistake made in Genesis AGAIN!

    My wife’s father, an SIMPLE, ALMOST ILLITERATE PEASANT, DID know that incestous mating among animals leads to degradation!
    My grandfather, who grew rabbits, knew it!

    God di not!

  89. on 05 Jun 2010 at 10:46 am 89.Severin said …

    63 Corey

    Then we have problems with height of water and breathing!

    Ararat is 5,615 m high (16,945 f.).

    If water was higher than Ararat, then all people and animals on Noah’s ark would have extreme problems with breathing! They would probably all die after several days of severe breathing troubles.
    God did not know hat?!
    Or, maybe he provided masks for all the people and animals on the ark?

    What about Mount Everest?
    Was it flooded too (8,884 m/29,029 feet).
    Probably not, because it was not discovered yet!

    Aconcagua could not be flooded, because Christopher Columbus did not discover Americas at biblical times, and god had no idea it axists.

    Please, Corey!

  90. on 05 Jun 2010 at 11:13 am 90.Severin said …

    I appologize to all for making a mess by placing my comments to wrong chapters!

  91. on 05 Jun 2010 at 6:02 pm 91.3D said …

    88.Severin said …

    63 Corey
    And, of course, god AGAIN planned to spread the life all over the earth BY INCESTOUS MATING, after the flood!
    Didn’t he mention ONE PAIR OF EACH ANIMAL?
    He REPEATED his huge mistake made in Genesis AGAIN!
    My wife’s father, an SIMPLE, ALMOST ILLITERATE PEASANT, DID know that incestous mating among animals leads to degradation!
    My grandfather, who grew rabbits, knew it!
    God di not!

    It’s not God’s fault. He was invented at a time when people were stupid.

    If he was invented today, he would do all kinds of cool sci-fi shit.

  92. on 05 Jun 2010 at 6:30 pm 92.Corey said …

    Correction: God invented/created/made us. He made humans smart. Obviously you have chosen to deny what God has given you because your a prime example of what you stated above, “…at a time when people were stupid.”

  93. on 11 Jul 2010 at 5:00 pm 93.TruthSeeker said …

    “Give me one, just one, scientific theory that disproves God.
    People have believed since the beginning of time in God.”

    (open’s book of mythology)
    Echo, a God(dess) who ended up punished and only could repeat the last part of a sentance/word.
    We know today that sound is vibrations, when sound hits a surface, it can deflect and/or reflect like light or water hitting a surface, and it returns to you. Primative man’s attempts to explain the existance of an echo. God(dess) Disproved!
    Ceres & Persephone: Tries to explain the changing of the seasons for primative man. Goddesses Disproved
    Atlas: What holds up the earth? Primitive man thought something had to hold up this FLAT earth. God Disproved
    Primitive man’s attempt to explain where salt pillars come from? Lot & Wife (source: Bible) Disproved.

    It reads just like mythology, because it IS mythology!

    Science has a way disproving gods, yet with this track record people still want Athiests to Disprove thier god instead of proving that such a god really exists.

    If I told you my Patron God was Zolmagustar but to you there’s no evidence of it existing, what’s my proof it does? You can’t prove it doesn’t exist! You must accept it on Blind Faith and if this was pre-USA you would be killed for your BLASPHEMY!!!! GRRR!!
    This is the way religion looks to an Athiest. And this ‘Convert or Die’ manifesto carried by the Unholy trinity: Judaism, Chrisinity and Muslim and thier worship of Amen, the Pagan God of Darkness, Evil, Set’s and Anubis’ successor, Egyptian equivilant of Satan, is the one true God of those religions. ‘What you cannot control must be destroyed, what you do control: divide and conquer.’
    If you were to buy a house, is the only thing you would look at is the roof? Of course not, look at the wall, and for goodness sake, look at it’s foundstions!

  94. on 11 Jul 2010 at 7:17 pm 94.Burebista said …

    “Science has a way disproving gods, yet with this track record people still want Athiests to Disprove thier god instead of proving that such a god really exists.”

    Then why are their scientist who are Christians? I don’t know any worsippers of Echo! LOL

    Why this website if you feel no need to disprove? Your reasoning is lacking.

  95. on 12 Jul 2010 at 6:36 am 95.3D said …

    94.Burebista said …

    “Science has a way disproving gods, yet with this track record people still want Athiests to Disprove thier god instead of proving that such a god really exists.”
    Then why are their scientist who are Christians?”

    Well, there are scientists who call themselves Christians. Some of them believe in a God who, like Severin described, set the universe in motion and didn’t interfere, and see the Bible as metaphorical and not literal in nature. I don’t personally agree, but at least that POV doesn’t interfere with the scientific method and is consistent.

    Like most other Christians, they cherry-pick the Bible for things that fit their personal world view, and discard the rest.

    As far as fundamentalist Christians who believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible, there aren’t many of those, because a scientific worldview reduces any literal interpretation of the Bible to a laughing stock.

    Of course we still don’t know what kind of Christian you are, Burebista, because you are embarrassed to tell us what your personal views on religion are. Is the world 6,000 years old, or is the “created the world in 6 days” thing an allegory? Wanna fess up?

  96. on 21 Jul 2010 at 7:10 pm 96.i belive in god said …

    bible has looooooooooots of human mistakes but u will never never never never never find one mistake at q,oraan . and if u study it u will belive in god 100 %

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