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Christianity &Islam &Judaism &Science Thomas on 08 Apr 2010 12:19 am

Science vs. belief – a handy chart

Science vs. belief – a handy chart

57 Responses to “Science vs. belief – a handy chart”

  1. on 09 Apr 2010 at 10:30 pm 1.Anonymous said …

    God is real and if you do not want to believe it fine go to hell but I know I have got a great place in a city of gold. You may not believe God now but trust me you will.

  2. on 10 Apr 2010 at 1:40 am 2.A real-ist said …

    “God is real”

    Where’s the proof?

    “if you do not want to believe it fine go to hell”

    Where’s the proof hell exists? I don’t believe it exists so therefore I won’t go to hell. If you call your non-existence when you die hell, then I guess we are all going there.

    “I have got a great place in a city of gold”

    Yeah, but those suicide bombers get something like 17 virgins when they die, so unless you get that in the city of gold I think they have it made. By the way, I don’t think there is much value in gold in your heaven since man on earth decided it was valuable on earth as a monetary item.

    “You may not believe God now but trust me you will.”

    I don’t trust people who talk to imaginary friends.

  3. on 10 Apr 2010 at 3:09 pm 3.Lou said …

    Science is incredible. The more we discover the more we see the handiwork of GOd. What a great evangelism tool! I know of a number of atheist who now accept the existence of God…Anthony Flew topping the list.

    THe more we discover the complexities the fewer straws atheist will have to hold on to.

  4. on 10 Apr 2010 at 5:08 pm 4.A real-ist said …

    Yeah, science is incredible because it shows us things based on proof, where as your existence of a God has no proof. Once science proves the existence of a God, then there is nothing else to discuss.

  5. on 10 Apr 2010 at 10:29 pm 5.Xenon said …

    Tell it like it is Lou!

  6. on 12 Apr 2010 at 3:54 pm 6.Snowflake said …

    I have a question. Let’s say complexity does prove intelligence was behind creation. Which god or gods should I worship?

    Thank you.

    Sincerely,
    Concerned in Kalamazoo

  7. on 15 Apr 2010 at 3:48 pm 7.Xenon said …

    Which god or gods should I worship?

    Why do you believe you must worship the creator?

  8. on 15 Apr 2010 at 6:30 pm 8.Snowflake said …

    Depending on the creator, I do need to worship it. For instance, the god of the Bible demands worship. However, if the creator was some other uninvolved deity, worship is perhaps unnecessary.

    So, as you can see it’s pretty important that I know which god or gods.

    Thank you.

  9. on 15 Apr 2010 at 8:55 pm 9.Severin said …

    “Yeah, but those suicide bombers get something like 17 virgins…”

    It was 72, I think.

    I was always curious what happens after lucky guy deflower them. Does he get new 72 ones?
    Is there a muslim on this Blog to explain it to me?

  10. on 15 Apr 2010 at 10:43 pm 10.Xenon said …

    “Depending on the creator, I do need to worship it. For instance, the god of the Bible demands worship. However, if the creator was some other uninvolved deity, worship is perhaps unnecessary.”

    Why do you assume it is the one of the Bible or the Koran?

    Hope that helps. Just acknowledge there had to be one. Complex systems of thought, information and logic do not create themselves. That is just common sense. The rest will take care of itself.

  11. on 15 Apr 2010 at 11:38 pm 11.A real-ist said …

    “Just acknowledge there had to be one. Complex systems of thought, information and logic do not create themselves. That is just common sense. The rest will take care of itself.”

    Just to say godditit and not question anything is not common sense. We have to question things, such as God can’t create himself either.

  12. on 16 Apr 2010 at 7:36 pm 12.Snowflake said …

    When you say that “the rest will take care of itself” do you mean that other knowledge will be revealed once I acknowledge that a creator exists?

  13. on 16 Apr 2010 at 9:14 pm 13.Xenon said …

    Snow,

    We do not want to be drug into the old and tired muck perpetuated by the likes of such as the anti-realist.

    My point is when you set the foundation that the very infrastructure of our existence down to the human genome was designed and created by a creator, then all areas of science, humanities, metaphysics, epistemology and aesthetics begin to make much more sense.

  14. on 16 Apr 2010 at 10:22 pm 14.PulRalSol said …

    I don’t understand your point Xenon. I don’t see how acknowledging a creator does any of that. For instance, all of Saudi Arabia acknowledges a creator. Are they better off for it in the areas of science and humanities?

  15. on 17 Apr 2010 at 2:54 am 15.A real-ist said …

    Xenon,
    You and other believers are just victims of being brainwashed. If you don’t question things, then you are no different than a robot, metaphorically speaking.

    Here is a question for you to ponder in the meantime. If God created humans and we are the center of his creation, then why have we only existed in a small spec of time? Why didn’t he create us right away? During the existence of the universe, there was a large amount of time when there was no life. Then life first formed as bacteria. Then other animals formed during a long period of time. Then after billions of years we appeared. Sounds like evolution to me. And just to get it out of the way, we are about 97% genetically the same as apes. This is just one of many many questions you can ask yourself.

  16. on 17 Apr 2010 at 3:25 am 16.A real-ist said …

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ojPtbw-q-w

    Here is a video I saw that makes a good point by using humor.

  17. on 17 Apr 2010 at 11:46 am 17.Xenon said …

    Wow, thanks AR. Those are questions that have never been asked or even pondered before. You know us theist we are not allowed to ask questions or question dogma. Makes you wonder how science got this far.

    Who claimed humans are the center and I believe we are 99% with the great ape. Then again, do you have a grasp of just how large the 1% really is when the comparison takes place?

    Maybe it is you who needs to start asking the question. Start with “If there is no designer or creator why does the universe show such great design, creativity and complexity? Spare me a line from Dawkin’s and don’t use :”It is only complex to our minds”, Gag!

  18. on 17 Apr 2010 at 4:01 pm 18.A real-ist said …

    If you believe we are 99% with the great ape, then how can you think that we are lucky enough to go to heaven and the great ape isn’t? The 1% difference is part in because we have more of an ability to learn. How does that translate into having a soul?

    “If there is no designer or creator why does the universe show such great design, creativity and complexity? Spare me a line from Dawkin’s and don’t use :”It is only complex to our minds”

    Actually, part of it is because that is what we perceive it as.
    There is much evidence, observation, and theory that can explain many of the complexities of the universe and life on earth.
    Part of it is because of the billions of years of cells making copies of themselves and the cells that thrived and evolved stayed on to make even better copies while as the bad copies died out. I could probably explain that better since I am just writing it off the top of my head at the moment, but the point is still there.

  19. on 17 Apr 2010 at 6:03 pm 19.Xenon said …

    “we are lucky enough to go to heaven and the great ape isn’t?”

    Where did I say such a thing? Try to focus. Again, do you understand how large a gap that 1% is in comparison?

    “cells making copies of themselves and the cells that thrived and evolved stayed on to make even better copies while as the bad copies died out.”

    And somehow you still believe there is no creator. You may want to research the complex micro-cities we call cells. Impossible to rationally believe they were not designed.

  20. on 17 Apr 2010 at 7:23 pm 20.A real-ist said …

    Keep believing in make believe myths if you would like. The only comebacks believers like yourself has is God exists in a realm we cannot percieve and God created everything, even science. Well, I guess God created the non-belief in himself as well if you really think about it then. If God really wants everyone to believe in him, he can definitely do a better job of it. He can stop the questioning by showing himself like the video I pointed out above. He is powerful enough since he created everything. And don’t give me the B.S. that he doesn’t have to. If he showed himself now, it would end all evil in the world. Doesn’t he want to do that? Or does he just not care?

    By the way, nothing proves my theory wrong and nothing proves your theory right. Think about that one.

  21. on 17 Apr 2010 at 7:24 pm 21.dan68131 said …

    What’s more rational, a magical “creator” snapping its fingers or evolution and physics just grinding away for billions of years? Complexity is not = to creator. Complexity is = to unexplained or primitive science. Magic just is not an acceptable solution to unanswered questions or phenomena in my life.

  22. on 17 Apr 2010 at 8:51 pm 22.Severin said …

    19 Xenon
    “Impossible to rationally believe they were not designed.“

    If we follow the cause – effect chain and stop at the point called “god”, than god just existed (from eternity, without cause, without reason, without beginning…), and suddenly he decided to create matter/energy (universe).
    I will, at this point, avoid very interesting question: WHY would such a being have interest to create universe?

    Now we first have to clear:
    WHICH god created universe?

    Was it the SAME god described in human religions, who “created” earth by “abracadabra” method, and made man from dirt?
    Or was it some OTHER god, who caused the Big Bang, then let things to develop further according to natural laws (in this case also created by him)?

    Those 2 events absolutely do not fit together!
    If any god created matter and energy BEFORE some (other?) god created EARTH and MAN (from mud!), than ALL religions are false!
    Believers have to leave primitive gods described in ALL religions as total idiots, ignorants, primitives, and to search for some other, much higher and more complex being, who did his job by creating matter some 13.5 billion years before (anothoer?) god did his “abracadabra” job.

    Please do not expect us to take for granted that a god created universe, and then the SAME guy came, (13.5 billion years later!) to earth to make man from dirt, to sacrifice his son for human race, and to expect people to worship him using extremely primitive rituals.

    Those events and those gods are incompatible!
    You have to make your choice between the two, to avoid contradiction (and shame).

    But, if a being existed without reason, without beginning, without cause, WHY do we need him?
    WHY would matter and energy be the worse candidates than god, to be “something” that just existed from ever, without reason, without beginng and without cause?
    If we give the matter such a place in the cause – effect chain, all problems are solved, because our knowledge perfectly fits it.
    Matter (=energy) was NOT created, but just EXISTED and developed according to its own (natural, “built in”) laws, transforming itself from one form to another (something like water/ice/vapor, just more complex).
    Just like “god”, but fitting in EVERYTHING we know about it, including mathematics and logic.
    No god fits anything we know, matter/energy do.
    Again: you are free to search for “god the creator” if you wish, but such a god has NOTHING TO DO with primitive, stupid, ignorant, cruel, man-like gods described by ALL religions, including christian religion.
    You have to make your choice.

  23. on 17 Apr 2010 at 11:09 pm 23.Lou said …

    The BMW in my driveway: It wasn’t deigned or manufactured. It was billions of years of evolution and natural selection just grinding away!

    I don’t believe in some magical factory in Germany,

  24. on 18 Apr 2010 at 7:44 am 24.Severin said …

    23 Lou
    “The BMW in my driveway…“
    The BMW was designed and manufactured by men.
    Atoms and molecules a car was made of were not created, but just existed all the time. They did not all the time exist as atoms and molecules, but as other forms of matter or energy (like water/ice/vapor), ut they existed.

    Take 2 cause-effect chains:
    1st: God existed from ever, without reason, without beginning, without cause, then he created universe we know today.
    2nd: Matter /energy existed from ever, without reason, without beginning, without cause, then changed its form and transformed to universe we know today.
    WHY would it be inappropriate to just replace your god with matter/energy?
    It is not only appropriate, it is NECESSARY.
    Why?
    E=mc2 DOES NOT INCLUDE GOD! It icludes ONLY energy, matter and time (C=distance in time).
    If you try to get energy from atoms (in the atom power plant you are getting electricity from) following the equation E=mc2+god, you will get nothing, and will have NO electricity. In this (and all other equations) god MUST be zero, otherwise no energy!
    There is no scientific equation that icludes god; if god would be included, you could not travel, could not use computors, could not produce iron and aluminium to make your BMW….you could even NOT EXIST!

    You may now declare that matter/energy = god, and it is quite O.K. for me.
    In my language there is a proverb: „you can call me a cup, just do not brake (distroy) me“.
    Why would I care if you call matter/energy a god?

    But in the universe „created“ by THAT god, there is no room for „abracadabra“ gods invented by primitive humans only a few 1000 years ago: stupid, ignorant, primitive, man-like, cruel, selfish, vain „gods“.

  25. on 18 Apr 2010 at 11:53 am 25.Xenon said …

    LOL,can you turn me on to that BMW patch Xenon?

    “What’s more rational, a magical “creator” snapping its fingers or evolution and physics just grinding away for billions of years?”

    A creator hands down. Information, design and complexity does not result on its own merits.

    “By the way, nothing proves my theory wrong and nothing proves your theory right. Think about that one.”

    Nothing proves your theory correct, yes? If this is true, why do you keep claiming there is no God? My belief has a tremendous amount of circumstantial evidence ( see above on multiple posts). Your has virtually zero. Nature has never created matter out of nothing, ever – and we have observed it for millions of years.

  26. on 18 Apr 2010 at 2:34 pm 26.Anonymous said …

    X
    Ever hear of the fossil record? Clear evidence of God playing with your mind by planting “bones” of doubt or a history of complexity that does result on its own merits (aka evolution).

  27. on 18 Apr 2010 at 4:02 pm 27.I said …

    “God is real and if you do not want to believe it fine go to hell but I know I have got a great place in a city of gold. You may not believe God now but trust me you will.”

    this is the first post. so do Christians think that if we don’t just bow down and praise right away we should go to hell?
    where is Christ’s love in this?
    does he think this?

  28. on 18 Apr 2010 at 4:33 pm 28.A real-ist said …

    Xenon,
    “Nothing proves your theory correct, yes?”

    Matter and energy can be proven to exist, but an unconceivable realm with a God that has always existed has no evidence what so ever, so therfore matter and energy has always existed in some form has more proof than something that has no evidence in existing. Something that exists and being finite has a lot better chance of being correct than something that has no evidence of existing and being finite.

  29. on 18 Apr 2010 at 8:01 pm 29.Xenon said …

    “matter and energy has always existed in some form has more proof than something that has no evidence in existing.”

    R U sure? You might want to check again and you better tell the leading scientist that is the case. They say no, there was a definite beginning. If it is finite, can it have existed back to infinity? Um, I don’t think so. You better check your facts again.
    __

    “Ever hear of the fossil record?”

    Yes A, yes I have! And? You seem to think I don’t believe in evolution. You might want to recheck the posts.

    (sigh), are the high schools no longer teaching reading comprehension?

  30. on 18 Apr 2010 at 8:14 pm 30.Anonymous said …

    X
    Did you finish reading my post or did you fall asleep?

    “Clear evidence of God playing with your mind by planting “bones” of doubt or a history of complexity that does result on its own merits (aka evolution).”

  31. on 18 Apr 2010 at 8:48 pm 31.A real-ist said …

    “They say no, there was a definite beginning.”

    Yeah, a beginning of the current state of the universe, which was the Big Bang Theory. Matter and energy could have existed before the Big Bang, just in a different state.

    “If it is finite, can it have existed back to infinity? Um, I don’t think so.”

    But yet you claim a God exists back to infinity in his realm. At least the realm I am speaking of proves to exist; your God’s realm doesn’t. So if any rational person would have to choose between something proven to exist always existing and something not proven to exist always existing, they would choose the one we know exists.

  32. on 18 Apr 2010 at 9:08 pm 32.Xenon said …

    “Clear evidence of God playing with your mind by planting “bones” of doubt or a history of complexity that does result on its own merits (aka evolution).”

    What do the bones do to produce doubt? Evolution was no doubt guided by God. LOL, it is not possible w/o a God! I have no problems with Bones! especially as uttered by Cpt. Kirk. Try to be coherent A. (sigh)

    “Matter and energy could have existed before the Big Bang, just in a different state.”

    Could have existed in a different state? Like what and where is the proof of this “state”? Essentially you have this state existing w/o a God which is even less likely. Faith? You give an awful of credit to Mother nature.

  33. on 18 Apr 2010 at 9:16 pm 33.Anonymous said …

    X

    Gotcha. You are absolutely bullet proof when you take the position that it was “guided by God”. Duh! Now choose your god or belief system: Jesus or Allah, Zeus or Horus, FSM or Rael or Scientology or Mormon. To which god is evolution attributable? And why? Enlighten my ignorant mind.

  34. on 18 Apr 2010 at 10:52 pm 34.A real-ist said …

    “where is the proof of this “state”? Essentially you have this state existing w/o a God which is even less likely.”

    Yet you have a God existing without proof. Here we go again with me having to explain to you that it is more likely to always have had matter and energy existing in some form than a God without actual evidence of existing.

  35. on 18 Apr 2010 at 11:09 pm 35.dan68131 said …

    @Xenon: Natural selection of course renders your gods obsolete, no matter which one you believe in–or are you going to invent your own god like so many other believers before you? Magical gods aren’t needed as natural selection requires no guidance at all, only the passage of time. Sooo, I guess with “creationism” debunked as myth by good old Charles Darwin, most of the rest of anything attributed to “god’s” sort of looks a little silly, eh? Good luck to you sir.

  36. on 18 Apr 2010 at 11:28 pm 36.Xenon said …

    “Gotcha. You are absolutely bullet proof when you take the position that it was “guided by God”

    LOL, ah yeah sure you got me. Butte proof? That could be due to the fact it makes great sense. What makes you believe it is one of the Gods you listed? Bottom line, for your (did you say ignorant?), mind it didn’t happen without a designer and creator.

    Maybe Dan could share how did natural selection created matter again? All over the place.

    “Yet you have a God existing without proof”

    (sigh). again with no proof. We are here and the proof exists from the Tera to the nano. Sorry, you just ignore the proof that billions of us can see.

  37. on 18 Apr 2010 at 11:46 pm 37.A real-ist said …

    “We are here and the proof exists from the Tera to the nano. Sorry, you just ignore the proof that billions of us can see.”

    By using we exist is proof of a God isn’t actually proof, since the whole point of the conversation is that we can exist without a God. If us being here is substantial proof of a God, then there would be no need for this conversation. It is the same type of example when someone uses the bible as proof of God’s existence. It’s like saying Superman exists because it says so in the comic books. It is possible that we can exist without a creator. Once that is realized, everything else falls into place.

  38. on 19 Apr 2010 at 2:30 am 38.Anonymous said …

    X

    “Gotcha” as in “I understand” or “I get you”. Maybe English isn’t your first language.

    Bullet proof, as in you’ve coated yourself with kevlar and teflon. Bullets of logic and reason just bounce off, facts don’t stick, and there is never a chance of your, for lack of a better term, “idea” changing or modifying, ever. Not very scientific.

    So, again, point me in the right direction mighty X: To which god is evolution attributable? And why? Enlighten my ignorant mind.

  39. on 19 Apr 2010 at 2:48 am 39.A real-ist said …

    I think in X’s case he is not talking about a God of any one religion, he is talking about just a God in general. Either way, for X to think a God exists in a realm unconceivable to the universe he created makes it bullet proof from any rational thought. He thinks something absolutely had to create matter and energy, so something in another realm had to the be the creator, but yet that creator didn’t need to be created himself at some point.

  40. on 19 Apr 2010 at 3:00 am 40.Anonymous said …

    But real-ist, don’t you risk swimming in magma for eternity if you don’t get it right?

    I just want to know if there is a source for this “idea” that X has. Is it the result of a bad acid trip which X experienced or are there books, links, resources which I may access? X, show me the light, what is your source?

  41. on 19 Apr 2010 at 6:19 am 41.Severin said …

    29 Xenon
    “They say no, there was a definite beginning.”

    You are wrong (or trying to mislead us).
    They all say there was definitive beginning of THIS universe, but it started NOT from nothing, but from the “grain” in which all the matter and energy of the universe were “condensed”.
    At this moment scientist have no answer how such a “grain” of matter condensed before the BB (maybe from previous universe, just like vapor condenses to liquid water), but it does not mean it was not so.
    Scientist in 13th century did not know anything about microorganisms and deseases, which did not make the connection between them (deseases/microorganisms) wrong.

    I am just reading popular version of string theory (“The Elegant Universe” by Brian Green). I do not pretend I understand it all, but Green, and many other modern scientists he mantion in his book, in their works, confirm it: matter IS eternal, it just passes different forms during the history of its existing..

  42. on 19 Apr 2010 at 4:55 pm 42.Lou said …

    @ Real
    “It is more likely to always have had matter and energy existing in some form than a God without actual evidence of existing.”

    To be likely you would need to provide an example of this truth. I can say it is likely I can swim the Pacific Ocean since I can swim the length of an Olympic size pool but it does not make it true.

    A creator is likely due to the fact almost ALL scientist agree the universe had a beginning.A majority also believe in God from survey’s I have witnessed. Since matter and energy cannot make produce themselves, a creator is likely. That does not even deal with the complexity of the creation which is not possible by chance alone.

    Man designs and builds daily therefore the phenomena is recognized as probable.

  43. on 19 Apr 2010 at 10:08 pm 43.MrQ said …

    Lou,

    I’d be willing to bet that ALL scientists who believe in god have not reached consensus on what exactly god is. Agreed? I would bet that their god(s) are as varied as they are. From some undefined universal energy to accepting Jesus.

    Examples might be:
    Ken Miller ( http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/evol/ ) who is a practicing RC and fights battles with those backing ID and Creationism.

    Francis Collins ( http://biologos.org/ ) who also accepts evolution and a 13 billion year old Earth.

    Strange, isn’t it? They can ALL agree on the science but fail to agree on the supernatural. They cannot agree on a “theory of god”. Likely they consider their religous beliefs very personal and they have reached their beliefs through their research. Only they know what spiritual paths are best for them.

    Lou: “Man designs and builds daily ….”
    Agreed, god(s) included.

  44. on 19 Apr 2010 at 11:29 pm 44.A real-ist said …

    Lou,
    “A creator is likely due to the fact almost ALL scientist agree the universe had a beginning.”

    I guess you didn’t read one of my above posts since Xenon and I had the same discussion. Here it is again: Yeah, a beginning of the current state of the universe, which was the Big Bang Theory. Matter and energy could have existed before the Big Bang, just in a different state.

    Severin brought up some good points in relation to what I am saying as well. I think I am going to read the book “The Elegant Universe”, which he pointed out, so I can get even more information. Maybe you believers should read it, too.

  45. on 20 Apr 2010 at 6:20 am 45.Severin said …

    42 Lou
    “To be likely you would need to provide an example of this truth.”
    For the 100th time you require examples (proofs, evidences) without giving any for your own claims, and it starts to bother. Please give us some evidences for existing of god! At least give us some examples a normal, intelligent person could “swallow”.
    You can touch matter, breath it, eat it, break it in a colider, and get back, by precize scientific methods, supported by math, physics, chemistry etc, to the beginning of universe.
    Scientists discovered UNIVERSE had the beginning, but no one ever said MATTER has beginning. Today’s universe started FROM matter (not from “nothing”!), so it is obvious that matter DID exist before the BB.

    You can NOT touch the god, and it does NOT fit any scientific equation describing this universe (see my comment 41 here: equations E=mc2+god, or E=mc2*god, or E=mc2*ln(god), or E=mc2*cos(god) lead nowhere !)

  46. on 20 Apr 2010 at 6:23 am 46.Severin said …

    42 Lou
    “To be likely you would need to provide an example of this truth.”
    For the 100th time you require examples (proofs, evidences) without giving any for your own claims, and it starts to bother. Please give us some evidences for existing of god! At least give us some examples a normal, intelligent person could “swallow”.
    You can touch matter, breath it, eat it, break it in a colider (CERN), and get back, by precize scientific methods, supported by math, physics, chemistry etc, to the beginning of universe.
    Scientists discovered UNIVERSE had the beginning, but no one ever said MATTER had beginning. Today’s universe started FROM highly condensed matter (not from “nothing”!), so it is obvious that matter DID exist before the BB. And it is, of course, scientifically proven.

    You can NOT touch the god, and it does NOT fit any scientific equation describing this universe (see my comment 41 here: equations E=mc2+god, or E=mc2*god, or E=mc2*ln(god), or E=mc2*cos(god) lead nowhere !)

  47. on 20 Apr 2010 at 7:04 am 47.Severin said …

    (sorry, I clicked twice!)

    42 Lou
    We can all see that you DO recognize the BB. You just place god on the beginning, before the BB, and are telling us that he created matter and caused the BB.
    It is O.K. for me, although I would not put god anywhere.
    Nice!

    But it is now your turn (if you already got into a discussion) to explain: was the god who (according to you) caused the BB and created universe THE SAME GOD who, according to Bible, created earth (billions of years AFTER the BB) using some „abracadabra“ method, then made man from dirt and woman from his rib?
    Was the „BB god“ the same one who required people to burn animals as offerings to please his noble sense of smell?
    Was it the same god who, to demonstrate his divinity, „divided“ to 3 parts, and one of them (Jesus=god) made wine from water?

    If there is a god who caused the BB, WHAT such a creature has to do with biblical god (and all other gods invented from people ever)?

    If you can not find any connection, if those were NOT the same gods (HOW could they be?!)then ALL religions are false. No need to obey them! No need to listen their stupid claims. No need to worship THEIR gods. No need to think about heaven and hell…etc.
    NO NEED to just believe, without questioning, all stupidities religion spread arround them.

  48. on 20 Apr 2010 at 12:38 pm 48.Xenon said …

    “Matter and energy could have existed before the Big Bang, just in a different state.”

    Yes we did have the conversation AR however, you zero proof. Is that not what you argue with about God? Matter and energy are not eternal now so why would they be in another realm?

    Therefore, God is more likely since we know matter and energy are not eternal.

    The problem with the discussion is that the ideologues will not read both sides of the issue. Try “The language of God”. The author is very much a REAL scientist I assure you. He is also an theistic evolutionist.

  49. on 21 Apr 2010 at 12:33 am 49.A real-ist said …

    “Matter and energy are not eternal now so why would they be in another realm?”

    You agree ice, water, and vapor are different states of matter, correct? Does this imply they are in a different realm?

    “Therefore, God is more likely since we know matter and energy are not eternal.”

    Why do you think we know matter and energy are not eternal? Fact is, we know matter and energy exists, where there is no proof of a God, so for you to claim I have no proof of matter and energy being eternal, you go and claim there is an eternal God without proof. Something that we know exists is more likely to be eternal than something we don’t even have any proof of existing.

  50. on 21 Apr 2010 at 2:59 am 50.Horatio said …

    “Something that we know exists is more likely to be eternal than something we don’t even have any proof of existing.”

    Actually No Realist. We have the the tools of science to essetially eliminate your claim. Something beyond science is actually more likely.

  51. on 21 Apr 2010 at 3:48 am 51.A real-ist said …

    Horatio, Really? Tell me in actual detail the scientific proof or theory that eliminates my claim. Or are you just making it up because it sounds good in your mind?

  52. on 21 Apr 2010 at 6:37 am 52.Severin said …

    48 Xenon
    “Therefore, God is more likely since we know matter and energy are not eternal.”
    How do we know it? Because you say so?
    What we positively know is that matter DID exist before the BB happened. The BB did not start from “nothing”, but from condensed matter/energy. Read about it.

    However, all you people recognizing the BB as god’s deed are all the time AVOIDING to explain connection between the biblical god and the one who caused the BB.

    Is it because you also see no connection?
    Please tell us „ignorants“ how is it possible that a super-creature mighty enough to start universe by creating all the matter,and by imposing to matter/energy laws by which they will function after creation, and by causing the BB, came to (where? to solar system?) billions of years after the BB to create earth?
    Then, after he made man and woman in a way not quite comparable to his previous deed (the BB), gave precise orders to people on earth how to prepare offerings to him by killing and burning animals, to please his sense of smell.

    Is it SO difficult to answer this question?
    I find it IMPOSSIBLE, but maybe you could enlighten us!

    Was it a sort of „clown god“, or what?

  53. on 21 Apr 2010 at 12:25 pm 53.Horatio said …

    “The BB did not start from “nothing”, but from condensed matter/energy. Read about it.”

    How do you know? Because you claim it is so? Condensed matter/energy which came from……?

    Where is your proof, examples from today where we see this in action? If you believe matter and energy can exist forever and has existed forever you are a man of incredible faith. Where is you abstract and your peer reviews?

  54. on 21 Apr 2010 at 7:58 pm 54.Severin said …

    53 Horatio
    “How do you know? Because you claim it is so?”
    “Where is your proof, examples from today where we see this in action?”

    I believe evidences given by hundreds (actually: thosands)of scientists, because their achievments fit my own knowledge, logic, reality surrounding us, math, physics, chemistry, …
    Do you believe 1,000,000 x 1,000,000 = 1,000,000,000,000 without actually counting it?
    Or, do you believe that 1 cubic km has 1,000,000,000 cubic meters? Or Pitagora’s rule (in any right triangle, the area of the square whose side is the hypotenuse (the side opposite the right angle) is equal to the sum of the areas of the squares whose sides are the two legs (c2=a2+b2, c=hypotenuse, a,b = legs)
    If you do, how? How are you so sure in accuracy of those calculations?
    Do you believe without checking that you get CO2 by burning C (coal)? Or to get hydrogen and oxygen by electrolising water? or that salt is made of sodium and chlorine?
    Do you believe without walking and measuring yourself that distance between earth and sun is some 150,000,000 km (and is precisely known, in 1 mm, for each second of earth’s orbiting).
    Do you believe the surface of a circle = r2*pi
    Do you believe without asking for special evidences that E=mc2?
    Do you USE some of the a.m. facts? Maybe you are not aware of it, but YOU DO (by tiping answers here, for example!).
    Do you need evidences earth is a globe?
    If someone gives them to you will you trust them?

    Scientists discovered those facts (most of them very recently!), gave us good evidences they were right, and we not only trust, but USE them. All of them WORK PERFECTLY.

    What is your problem?
    You trust SOME scientific achievments without evidences, although they were NOT given by any god, or religious books, but by scientists. No god and no Bible mentioned ever any of those, or any other, scientific facts! Then, for OTHER scientific facts, you block yourself, and do not trust.

    Why don’t you just give us some evidences that god exists, and you will solve all our problems here.

    Or, if you insist to claim god created everything, why don’t you just try to answer the simple question: which one? Biblical god, or the “BB god“?

  55. on 21 Apr 2010 at 8:30 pm 55.Xenon said …

    My problem is that Severin gives examples of observational and testable science in order to somehow prove that matter and energy have always existed.

    Severin you may be unaware, but scientist do not claim matter & energy have always existed. Quite the contrary. Learn the difference between observational science and historical science. To go along with that lesson, learn the difference between fact and opinion!

    Here is a corundum for you Severin. Why are so many scientist theist if the nonexistence of God is SO obvious? Don’t pull out the old “A majority doesn’t make some fact”. Yes, well all know but think the question over.

  56. on 22 Apr 2010 at 2:23 am 56.A real-ist said …

    Xenon,
    Scientists have also not claimed that matter and energy isn’t possible to have not always existed. And yes, scientists do agree that the universe had a beginning to it’s current state, but the matter and energy used to create it could have existed in a previous form before that.

    “Why are so many scientist theist if the nonexistence of God is SO obvious?”

    Why do you think there are “so” many of them? Do you know the percentage? Probably a small amount do, but that is a very small amount. The way you say it is if the majority is only a majority by a little bit.

    “My problem is that Severin gives examples of observational and testable science in order to somehow prove that matter and energy have always existed.”

    By the way, Severin was talking about believing Scientists and Science in general when giving those examples of things proven to be true that we just accept without doing the test on our own. His point is that if you do do the test on your own, the same results will happen.

  57. on 26 Apr 2010 at 11:58 pm 57.Observer said …

    Here is something to help even nominally literate believers get over their awe inspiring ignorance of current scientific knowledge, and thought.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/27/science/27gene.html?hp

    Do you think Ed Marcotte is a believer? He is one of the same ilk as one of our favorite Oxford dons Richard Dawkins.

    Hell, as a bonus, there is even an amputee story today where God does the only thing it can, NOTHING, ( or else the asshole made a woman lose her leg and suffer horribly). But, a person does an amazingly good job of getting on with their life with good folks at hand and no delusions about executed Jews or a Man in the Sky.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/26/sports/26vecsey.html

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