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Christianity &Rationals Thomas on 26 Jan 2010 01:12 am

How the delusion of Christianity affects everyday thinking

As the video points out, Christians are delusional. How does the delusion affect Christians in their everyday lives? Here is one example:

New Bank Rules Sink Stocks

If accepted by Congress, the Obama proposals could force significant changes in how the nation’s biggest banks do business. The specter of new profit-crimping regulation battered bank stocks Thursday, dragging down the Dow Jones Industrial Average by 213.27 points, or 2%, to 10389.88. Some financial stocks sank by more than 5%, though they recovered slightly after Barney Frank, the Massachusetts Democrat who is chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, said the new rules would take effect over three to five years, not immediately. J.P. Morgan Chase & Co.’s stock was the hardest hit, sinking 6.6%.

The concept that the Wall Street Journal is espousing in the article is simple: What Obama says and does has immediate, dramatic impacts on the market; there is a direct cause-effect relationship between Obama and the stock market.

The problem is that, as soon as you accept that concept, then you have to explain this graph showing the dramatic rise in the stock market in 2009:

If Obama is to blame for the drop in the stock market last week, then he is also to blame for the 10-month rise, is he not?

When questioned about this, the WSJ would surely say, “There are other explanations for the rise in the stock market over the last year – Obama had nothing to do with those stock market increases.” In other words, Obama is the direct cause of all stock market drops, but none of its increases.

What does this remind you of? It is just like the Christian belief that God causes all blessings, but none of the disasters. “Praise God from whom all blessings flow”, and all that.

Both of these beliefs – 1) that God causes all (and only) blessings, and 2) that Obama causes all (and only) stock market drops – are completely delusional. No rational person would tolerate such cognitive dissonance in his or her thinking. But for Christians, because they are delusional to begin with, such dissonance is easy to accept. They embrace massive dissonance every single day in order to be Christians.

Daniel Dennett puts it this way in Problem of evil and religion’s double standard:

The idea that God is a worthy recipient of our gratitude for the blessings of life but should not be held accountable for the disasters is a transparently disingenuous innovation of the theologians.

Religion is delusion. That delusion has a negative impact on the thinking of all religious adherents because it encourages them to be delusional in other parts of their lives as well.

70 Responses to “How the delusion of Christianity affects everyday thinking”

  1. on 26 Jan 2010 at 11:02 pm 1.Troy said …

    Interesting. The DNC deity being compared to the real deity. The only thing blaming Barrack for stock falls but not rises reminds me of is – the liberals blaming Bush for the same process including hurricanes and terrorist.

  2. on 27 Jan 2010 at 3:00 am 2.Andrew B Heard said …

    “It is just like the Christian belief that God causes all blessings, but none of the disasters. “Praise God from whom all blessings flow”, and all that.

    Both of these beliefs – 1) that God causes all (and only) blessings,”

    Don’t you think this statement is a mischaracterization of Christian doctrine? Orthodox Christianity does not claim that God pours nothing but blessing out on humanity. Christianity is clear that wrath is an attribute that God exhibits. It is also clear as to why God exhibits wrath and that suffering is at the center of the Christian call of discipleship.

    Don’t you also think that there is a difference between active and passive responsibility? One could say that God allows something without saying that he is the initiator. Blaming God for natural disasters and not giving him credit for nature is a lot like blaming Obama for drops in the market and ignoring the fact that he over saw the rise in the market.

  3. on 27 Jan 2010 at 9:37 am 3.Severin said …

    Andrew B Heard 2
    „One could say that God allows something without saying that he is the initiator.“
    Yes, and another one could ask then why an allmighty and all-loving god allows his beloved congregation to suffer and die in millions, including children and the most sincere believers, out of his control.

  4. on 27 Jan 2010 at 5:09 pm 4.Mason said …

    Well Severin the answer is not that it’s out of his control it’s the reasoning behind it. God will not force you to do bad things neither will he force you to do good things. He chooses to give you the best OPPORTUNITY to do good things (the ten commandments) that is how he chooses to stop “evil” in the world it’s free will. If there is a man with his arm raised up ready to stab a child God will not stop it God. He lets people chose their own destiny and if that child was to be stabbed it would be better for her to sleep till judgment day than to live in this world another 70 years. God did not bring pain in to this world we did.

    I find this website to be very biased especially godisimaginary.com there is nowhere I can respond to any of the 50 “proofs”

  5. on 27 Jan 2010 at 5:31 pm 5.FOC said …

    Look God does not have a gun to your head saying “bow down and love me or die” no he has an open hand extended to you. So do not make Christianity look bad just because you do not want to know God. also I want you to know that God wants you to know him. and about out loud prayers 2 things, a lot of times other people just get distracted, and it is good to have an example on how to pray, and if you would finish the story about the lady who said that the dogs also receive crumbs that fall from the table and was healed. why do you hate Christians? I know you probably get a lot of comments about your work but you realize that your JOIN US thing at the bottom of the website is basically people gathering against Christians, which is in the bible, and it will get worse so I urge you to consider Christianity, because people make it look like we think we are better than them, I do not think that. but why don’t you check out the book mere Christianity by C.S Lewis, and think about the right and wrong, that is not an instinct, like self protection, or lust or whatever. that is God knocking on your door. Please open it, and I am praying for you sir
    I have to go

  6. on 30 Jan 2010 at 3:10 am 6.Freethought Gal said …

    Geez. The Christians posting here pretty much sum up the “delusion” concept you’ve been talking about. What’s even better is that they make up what this imaginary deity thinks and how he/she/it acts towards people. Scary.

  7. on 30 Jan 2010 at 9:10 am 7.Severin said …

    Mason 4
    „…it’s the REASONING behind it.“ (my bold)
    „He chooses to give you the best OPPORTUNITY to do good things (the ten commandments) that is how he chooses to stop “evil” in the world it’s free will.“ (your bold)

    So god has a REASON to let die millinos of hungry and sick children around the world!

    Oh, yes, I forgot, he gave them their own OPORTUNITY to do something with their lives, but they missed it by their free will. You can not blame god if a 2 yeras old baby did not read the ten commandments, its baby’s fault, of course!
    Baby misused its free will!

  8. on 30 Jan 2010 at 9:26 am 8.Severin said …

    5 FOC
    “…gathering against Christians…“
    Why are christians so arrogant?
    Probably because they had all the power in their hands for milleniums, and got accustomed everybody to obey them without questions and doubts for milleniums, UNDER THREAT of torturing or death. Now when they lost their power, they lost also orientation, and behave like elephants in a glass shop: they think people are OBLIGATE to follow their stupidities. We are not!

    Dear FOC, this site is NOT against christians, but against superstition of ALL religions!
    Christianity is most frequently mantioned here probably because christians discuss here most frequently, no other reason.

  9. on 30 Jan 2010 at 9:35 am 9.Severin said …

    5 FOC
    “why do you hate Christians?”
    Dear FOC, where did you se ANYBODY hates christians in these pages?
    Where did you find hate in my comments?
    As I said in one of my comments, my grandies were active catholics, and I loved them by all my heart. I also have many friends believers and I love them.
    But I fight their OPINION all the time.

    I, and as far as I could see other atheists too, are NOT fighting you or any other personality.

    I am trying to fight superstition, and if I am “sharp” in my debate, it is not against you personally, but against what you offer in YOUR comments.

  10. on 30 Jan 2010 at 9:52 am 10.Severin said …

    4 Mason
    “He lets people chose their own destiny…”
    In what bloody way let your god the poor baby to choose its destiny?
    and if that child was to be stabbed it would be better for her to sleep till judgment day than to live in this world another 70 years.

  11. on 30 Jan 2010 at 10:02 am 11.Severin said …

    To “sleep”?
    To “sleep” being stabbed from a maniac who is nothing but god’s tool.

    Religions are DANGEROUS if adherents accept such a logic of “kill and let die”.

    How would you feel faced with a maniac’s knife? Would you say: it is a god’s will, and I will “sleep” for the next period, never mind!

  12. on 30 Jan 2010 at 11:31 am 12.FOC said …

    alright Severin.
    and if you think about it, when people were forced to be Christians for their lives were pretty bad times, because the heads of the church got greedy and stuff and some stuff is pretty messed you are right. but nobody is forcing Christianity on you now. I understand you are not against it, i got the wrong idea. but how is Christianity a superstition? and are you trying to help your Christian friends believe in Atheism. ok I know this is an over used question, but what do you live for? what gets you out of bed in the morning? I am not trying to say your reasons are wrong i am trying to understand you more. and about your last comment about the baby,well if somebody is trying to kill a Christian they are not going to stand there and say “take me!” they will fight or run. but if somebody does kill the baby(also abortion) then we do not know what happens.so the baby could just go to heaven.(or wait, we do not know what happens when we die)it is just another adventure awaiting us right. are you married?

  13. on 30 Jan 2010 at 5:41 pm 13.Severin said …

    „but how is Christianity a superstition?“

    I did not say only christianity, but ALL RELIGIONS!
    Because none of them fits thr real world.
    Very late (because of their arogancy they were accustomed to for some 2000 years), when catholic church noticed that people are getting smarter and church is loosing adherents (money!), they suddenly “recognized“ big bang and evolution as god’s deed (if you need evidences, I’ll get you some)!
    Why did they stated before (and killed for stating oposite!) that god (the same one who „performed“ big bang and evolution???) made man from mud?
    Why was the BB and E not mentioned in the Bible?
    Or, why did church let scientists investigate the beginning of universe and evolution, then just „recognized“ their work, and „labeled“ their god on it? Why did they not do their own research to inform us about news?
    There are many things unexplained by science, but there are NO unecplicable things.
    Just look at the last 20-30 years, and how many things were unexplained before.
    And if you look 100 or 200 years back….and try to explain a man of that time how your mobile phone works!

  14. on 30 Jan 2010 at 6:01 pm 14.Severin said …

    “I understand you are not against it, i got the wrong idea.”
    You have the wrong idea now. I AM against religions (not specifically christianity), and I AM trying to open the eyes to people who believe in anything supernatural. But it in no way means I am against you or against anyone else.
    You might be surprised about your “take me”. It was war in my country some 15 years ago, and I helped a lot people, not asking for their religion. And it did cost me (not money, worse than that), but I was never sorry for what I did.
    I was an atheist then, as I am today.

  15. on 30 Jan 2010 at 10:14 pm 15.Severin said …

    „…but what do you live for?“
    „…we do not know what happens when we die“
    These 2 questions are closely connected.

    I KNOW what happens when I die. I (as everybody else) stop existing, no more „I“.

    Of course I do not like it, but I am prepared to go to „nothingness“, what else to do?

    When I was Young, I did not know what I am living for, I just lived a very full and active life. Then I lived for my daughter, and now when she is on her own, I am trying to live my life as actively as possible, to feel the life untill my last moment.
    I am not affraid of dying, as I know my life was as complete and as fulfilled as possible under circumstances, and I enjoed it.

    There no „eternal life“. Religions invented it with 2 possibilities: eternal happiness or eternal torture, to keep in obedianc superstitious and uneducated people terrified by dying. No fear of dying, no need for religion.

    I am divorced, but in friendly relation with my ex-wife. Anythin else?

  16. on 31 Jan 2010 at 4:21 am 16.Anon said …

    “Look God does not have a gun to your head saying “bow down and love me or die” no he has an open hand extended to you.”

    Are you kidding me?! When I read this I just threw my hands in the air and shook my head. God may not have a gun, but he does have hell! You either obey god, or be tortured for an eternity. Is that free will, is that an open hand?

  17. on 31 Jan 2010 at 5:13 am 17.ReluctantAtheist said …

    That is why it’s always “God” who gets the credit for the good that happens in a diaster and “Mother Nature” for the bad stuff.

  18. on 31 Jan 2010 at 12:29 pm 18.FOC said …

    well first to ReluctantAtheist you probably heard about hati. God killed all those people. ok I know that is true. I have no clue why.I know this may not be the best way to look at it but some times i see my life as a play.(or a book)and that is not the best feeling is it? to think you are just some character in somebody elses story. but I am glad I am I am glad he chose me and made me, I relise that gets nowhere because you believe differently, but that is my belief. and if you look around there is so much hate of God that so many people blame God for so much bad that happens.

  19. on 31 Jan 2010 at 12:40 pm 19.Masai said …

    look ReluctantAtheist,
    God Doesn’t always get the credit for good things but sometimes he gets alot of the credit for the bad things. its not him who causes them its satan who does the bad things. God allows satan to do these things so that his people the christians can show him through thier actions. also not everyone who say they are christians are christians. He tests us by allowing these things to happen. I know that all those haitians deaths are not good. and have no idea why they happened but this is a time for God to show himself in the world and all you have to do is open your eyes.

  20. on 31 Jan 2010 at 12:42 pm 20.FOC said …

    Ok Anon. I would put it like this. God is like a dad. and i know there are bad dads out there but lets just say, he is a loving caring father. now when his child disobeys he will punish the child, not out of malice but because the father had a good reason for it, playing with fire stealing stuff like that. and I know a spanking is different then hell. it really is. but that is a punishment, ok you may ask a punishment for what? right. well I think whether we like it or not we are His servants. so when a servant takes steals, fools around or different stuff like that. he is fired, so you are being put away from God. which is finally hell, being separated from God. peoples picture of hell, well all I know is that it is not a good place. I think hell will start out like earth but people greed lust, anger, and all that stuff will make it a bad place, if there is no good or love people will just hate each other, and they will make their own downfall, which i would say is kind of what happend with Noah, if you think a flood happend at all, but people got bad God hated it so he just wanted to end it. Noah was still loyal. God spared him. I do not know if that explains it to you but that is what I think, I may be wrong.

  21. on 31 Jan 2010 at 12:51 pm 21.Masai said …

    Anon look..
    Hell is seperation from God. the people who are there are people who have rejected God and never accepted him. God’s Desire is for everyone to go and spend eternity with him. he loves us so,so much. the only reason that people go to hell is because they think a life from God is whole lot more free its not like that infact it’s easier to get hurt without God. Its a freewill you either choose to go to hell or love God and truly believe he is there. we are God’s coworkers minus all the power. so its a choice we all have to make to love him or not. but becoming a christian becasue your scared of going to hell is not the best way. you are missing the whole point the reason we follow him is not so that we don’t go to hell but because we love him. The only way you will get to know him is by talking to him and reading his word in the bible. So its a free will but which do we choose.

  22. on 31 Jan 2010 at 12:54 pm 22.Masai said …

    Anon look..
    Hell is seperation from God. the people who are there are people who have rejected God and never accepted him. God’s Desire is for everyone to go and spend eternity with him. he loves us so,so much. the only reason that people go to hell is because they think a life away from God is whole lot more free its not like that infact it’s easier to get hurt without God. Its a freewill you either choose to go to hell or love God and truly believe he is there. we are God’s coworkers minus all the power. so its a choice we all have to make to love him or not. but becoming a christian becasue your scared of going to hell is not the best way. you are missing the whole point the reason we follow him is not so that we don’t go to hell but because we love him. The only way you will get to know him is by talking to him and reading his word in the bible. So its a free will but which do we choose.

  23. on 31 Jan 2010 at 1:07 pm 23.FOC said …

    and Severin.
    where do you live? what country? and i know this is off topic but have you gone sky diving? you said you love to enjoy life, and me and my friends wanted to save up. would you know how much that would cost? but besides that, sorry for the side track I just really want to skydive. what did you do today?(if it is morning tell me about yesterday)I agree with you that the church did use people with fear, they used and abused them, it is horrible, but we are not under that today as much at all. so we make our own choice about what happens to us after death, it is nice to think I will go to heaven, but I am not a Christian so I go to heaven. my parents are Christians, and they brought me up teaching me about Christ and his life. But I made my own decision, which was an interesting thing in my life, I chose Christ because I saw how much he had done for me and I realize he does it because he loves me not because he has to. and he has shown me how real he is. through feelings(I know we feel good after doing good stuff)but different feelings. stories that happened recently, and stuff in my family. stuff of that sort.

    do you think things happen for a reason or just happen? have you ever been a member of any kind of religion? do you think Jesus lived? do you think he was crazy? why do you love your daughter and your wife?

  24. on 01 Feb 2010 at 9:43 am 24.Severin said …

    I live in a part of Europe where a bloody war occurred some 20 y. ago and finished some 15 y. ago.
    This is not a Blog for personnal correspondence, and I will not misuse it to answer your questions any more.
    There are many and many things as interesting as sky diving (or more interesting, such as learning, reading, love/sex….) to fulfil your life.
    There is no purpose in nature. Nobody goes to any “haeven” or “hell”, such things do not exist.
    When you die, you are dead for ever.
    You did not exist before you was born, and will not exist after your death.
    I do not know whether jesus did or did not exist, as there were many “jesuses” (prophets), more or less succesfull at that time and that geograohic spot. Some of them are historically proven, but forgotten, and existance of Jesus was not.
    However, if he existed, he was the same type of charlatan as you can see today on TV using people’s desperacy and naivete, making “miracles” to get your money.
    He certainly was not a god.
    Real god, if he existed, would be ashamed to perform circus (water to wine, etc) to prove his divinity. He would leave some much more reliable trace of his divinity.

  25. on 01 Feb 2010 at 12:52 pm 25.FOC said …

    OK got it. sorry about the personal questions, I should not try to go so personal with a person I just met. well first of all Jesus came to give us an example and to show us how to have a relationship with him. and thankfully die for our sins. not to put on a show for all the people who were stupid to follow him. like his disciples, they were not educated men, they were hard workers, they were not the brightest but they trusted him, anyway. ok and how do you know when you die that you will just siece to exist? and if that is the deal then why the heck are we different than animals?and how did we just happen? we just were born and !!BAMM!! “welcome to earth”. I have not heard of any ““jesuses” (prophets), more or less succesfull at that time and that geograohic spot.” do you mean like Muhamad?
    and I have heard of them but I have not seen TV miricles, I do not think God would want people just healing and saying send your money. i know that that is all false. they actually caught one of those guys taking out the money from prayer requests and just shreading the letter.

  26. on 01 Feb 2010 at 1:55 pm 26.Burebista said …

    “There is no purpose in nature. Nobody goes to any “haeven” or “hell”, such things do not exist.”

    Proof please. Do not make statements you cannot support.

  27. on 01 Feb 2010 at 4:59 pm 27.FOC said …

    how can you support heaven and hell? I am a Christian, but the thing is that we have this relationship through faith so he can prove to you that there is not a heaven and hell as well as you can prove to him there is. you know? “blessed are those who believe without seeing”

  28. on 01 Feb 2010 at 5:30 pm 28.Burebista said …

    I never claim I can support heaven or hell through any scientific measure. I realize that boldly making such claims without proof are arrogant and not supportable. He claims boldly there is no such thing. Since he makes this distinct claim I feel sure he has the proof to support the measure.

    It is much like the atheist who claim God is a delusion but when pushed they back down and come back with “there is no proof to support the claim for God”. There is a big difference. One is an absolute claim while the other is opinion.

  29. on 01 Feb 2010 at 6:00 pm 29.Severin said …

    I correct myself: I believe there are neither “heaven” nor “hell” (no “eternal life).
    I also believe there is no god, no “satan”, no angels, no Santa, no witches, no souls, no ghosts, no fairies, no mermates, no dwarfs, no vampires, etc.

    You believe what you want, but you can not support heaven or hell or god, by ANY measure.

  30. on 01 Feb 2010 at 7:55 pm 30.Burebista said …

    Sure I can, the Bible. That is how I know about their existence. I believe in stars beyond what telescopes can show us along with hope, love and beauty. I can’t prove any of those in the lab either but they sure make life that much more special.

    I will believe want…so thanks. You may do the same. Words have meaning so be careful how you state you opinions and beliefs. You might not get called out as much.

  31. on 01 Feb 2010 at 8:49 pm 31.Severin said …

    Burebista 30:
    “Sure I can, the Bible.”

    Thank you, Burebista!
    Now tell us how is the Bible a relevant source. Because you say so, or you have some better evidences?

  32. on 01 Feb 2010 at 10:35 pm 32.Burebista said …

    Sure, define us and please define evidence.

  33. on 02 Feb 2010 at 6:06 am 33.Masai said …

    Severin there is evidence all around us that the bible is true. first of all mount sanai has bben found in saudi arabia. When these two em found it they saw the 12 pillars that Moses laid out still there today. also all of the world and all the stars are calling out God’s name all you have to do is look and open your eyes. how did you come into existence severin if there is no God. you were created by God and he loves you so much i believ that i was called to tell you about this wonderful God who loves you. He does exist if you just look into the stars and wonder how it came to be you will see that he exists. we christians as FOC said have faith in God but once you really look around you know that he is there. the bible is not only tru but it is God breathed.it’s a letter form God himself. my evidence is God And that he exists i have faith in him. his trace of divinity is sahown in our genetic makeup do you know how complex it is. it is simply amazing and cannot happen without a creator i am only talking about onw chromosome but imagine the thousands contained in all your cells this is evidnecnce that God does exist. i do however understand your satnd about the phonies who perform fake miracles but again i say not everyone who say they are Christians are Christians.

  34. on 02 Feb 2010 at 8:29 am 34.Severin said …

    Bible is a bullshit, and I will give you evidences as soon as you define them. Untill then, my claim is valid as much as yours.
    Evene more, for many reasons already described in this blog and in WWGHA

  35. on 02 Feb 2010 at 8:33 am 35.Severin said …

    “how did you come into existence severin if there is no God.”
    My mother gave me a birth, thanks to my father who gave his spermatozoids to her.
    You have to learn a lot!

  36. on 02 Feb 2010 at 8:37 am 36.Severin said …

    “the bible is not only tru but it is God breathed.it’s a letter form God himself.”

    Thank you, Masai! So you admit god himself ordered all the children mascres described in Bible!
    Either it is true, then you (if you accept this) are the same monster as your god, or…?

  37. on 02 Feb 2010 at 12:34 pm 37.Masai said …

    Severin your missing the point the bible has historical facts as well but when i mean God breathed i mean that God told the writers what to say and what had happened. We have documents from king david wh is mentioned in the bible as a man after God’s own heart. if we have this document then it is evidnce that the bible is true. i am not going to Judge you because it’s not right and hardly know you. i know your resentment towards the bible but trust me once you accept God you get this warm fuzzy feeling and a joy that no one really understands except the individuals themeselves. the Bible is not #@#%^*&* it’s quite the oposite it is captivating and is the greatest love story. read it just try it out. also all the massacres of The bible including the one of the baby’s God let them happen to show that his son came into this world from a humble beggining. it’s Part of his plan that EVRYONE may see that he loves us all thats why he sent his son. yes your dad provided the spermatozoids but who do you think created you. and who created your moms mom and so forth. the first man is God’s Creation Genesis 1. YOU ARE HIS CREATION SEVERIN AND MOST OF ALL HE LOVES YOU. i see the pain in you and the anger you are holding but with God that anger can all disappear.

  38. on 02 Feb 2010 at 1:05 pm 38.Burebista said …

    I read the blog. I didn’t see any proof. I saw distortions, opinions and much lack of understanding.

  39. on 02 Feb 2010 at 6:43 pm 39.Severin said …

    “the Bible is not #@#%^*&* it’s quite the oposite it is captivating and is the greatest love story.”

    So you did not read the Bible, but claim it is a “love story”! Please read chaptes in which god orers masacring of children etc., adn explain yourself what “love” miht it be.

  40. on 02 Feb 2010 at 6:54 pm 40.Severin said …

    Do you really think we all are stupid here?

    Let’s say that I and this Blog have no evidences for anything.
    O.K., we don’t have evidences, fine, maybe we are right, maybe not.
    But YOU offered Bible as a proof for existance of hell and heaven:
    Severin: “You believe what you want, but you can not support heaven or hell or god, by ANY measure.”
    Burebista: “Sure I can, the Bible.”

    Now I have to cite you: Proofs, please! How is the Bible relevant as a proof for anything?
    Again: because you say so?

  41. on 02 Feb 2010 at 8:46 pm 41.Burebista said …

    “How is the Bible relevant as a proof for anything?”

    What I have to say is irrelevant. God’s word claims it revelation from God. Can you refute the claim? Numerous authors, inspired by God with a message throughout that points to the glory of Christ.

  42. on 03 Feb 2010 at 7:28 am 42.Severin said …

    “What I have to say is irrelevant.”

    Yes, it is! So why then you keep talking nonsenses?

  43. on 03 Feb 2010 at 11:51 am 43.FOC said …

    ok so if the bible is wrong and there is no God then what keeps you from being mean and taking things when you know you will not get caught? do you have a voice that pics a side in your head? like for some reason you think you should not do a certain thing?

  44. on 03 Feb 2010 at 12:01 pm 44.FOC said …

    and also when God “has people killed” they were the enemy so it is like any war or battle. not to be cruel but usualy you will kill the enemy if he is trying to kill you. so God has reasons for what he does we do not know them all yet but we trust that he does.

  45. on 03 Feb 2010 at 8:22 pm 45.Severin said …

    FOC 44
    „and also when God “has people killed” they were the enemy…“

    So you did not read the Bible and yet you discuss it.

    In Psalm 19:7 the Bible says:
    The law of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul.

    Then Bible discovers „the law of god“:

    Isaiah chapter 13:
    Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes.

    Obviously „lord“ recognized enemies in little children and ordered to masacre them! And there are many more such direct orders for children masacring in the Bible, „the word of god“

    Let’s see how yout god treats female children in the Bible:

    Exodus, chapter 21]
    „When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. If she does not please her master, who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed; he shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has dealt unfairly with her.“

    And if you DID read the Bible and you AGREE with such „laws“, something is wrong with you.

  46. on 03 Feb 2010 at 9:10 pm 46.Severin said …

    FOC 43
    „…what keeps you from being mean and taking things when you know you will not get caught“

    It is obviously NOT any god who keeps me (personally) from being mean.
    If it was a „god“ who keeps people from being mean, who is the one keeping many people VERY mean? Also god?
    No logic!
    If you now start with typical „who are we to judge god’s plans“, etc, then somebody please explain me his „plan“!
    If he has a „plan“, then we obviously HEVE NO FREE WILL! In that case we also have NO RESPONSIBILITY for our deeds; what can we do against god’s plan?
    Either god’s plan, or free will, the „mixture“ of both is totally illogical and does not function.
    If we have free will (which we do), limited by human laws only, everything is clear and explicable: some people are mean (by their nature, by their genes), other are not (for same reason), and the historical and political situation within society pevails depending of which people have power. As mean people are immoral, they ususlly prevailed in history on account of less mean people, but today situation is going better.

    „Morality“ is the tool of evolution to keep species surviving. Evene some primitive species have „built in“ some moral rules in their genes, for example:“do not eat your own youngs“. Not all of them have such rules, of course, as some species DO eat their own youngs. The higher the level of development af species, the higher „morality“ in a group.

  47. on 03 Feb 2010 at 9:55 pm 47.Horatio said …

    “Not all of them have such rules, of course, as some species DO eat their own youngs. The higher the level of development af species, the higher „morality“ in a group.”

    Ha ha Ha, What? Dude, you throw out some of the most ridiculous ideas I have ever seen. Keep them coming, I need a good laugh this part of the day. LOL. who determines what is “HIGH” morality? The drug dealers?

  48. on 04 Feb 2010 at 1:19 pm 48.FOC said …

    Severin 45.
    I spoke with somebody about their opinion of why God hurts those people or kills them and things of the sort, and he believes(I agree) that he does it for what they have done and in the bible it says something about how God will judge us and he will curse us for 3 or four generations but he blesses the righteous for many many generations. if you want i can look it up just let me know.and if you would not mind answering why did you read the bible? if you do not believe in it, it is not just another novel. you are right i have not read the whole bible I am doing my quiet time in Philippians now. I intend to read the whole thing in the near future but I do not know when. ok and also things have changed since exudes.(I am not trying to be a smart alek)you do not see Christians giving sacrifices any more right. thanks to Jesus we do not have to but plenty has changed. so I do not believe God wants me to go rape some Lady because he is mad at her, or her parents or children.

  49. on 04 Feb 2010 at 1:19 pm 49.Masai said …

    severin, God Loves you. what i mean is that he put you in this world for a reason and that he sent someone to die in your place so that you do not have to experiebce the flames of hell. all he wants is for you to accept him and love him back. God does exist and there is no question about that one. He created me and he created you. If you really think about it people call us insane because Christians real Christians never give up. when death arises we all know that God has his arms wide open for us to run into and him givings us a big warmhug. The war you said that you had in your country 15 years ago i don’t know where it is or what happened all i know is that God had a purpose for it. it wasn’t pointless. we have a free will in what we do by simly even the way you look at this war do you look on it as a no purposed bloodshed or a purpuse God had for it. also in the free will category you can choose not to follow God completly but are not free to avoid the consequences thats free will right there. for example you can chop of your right hand but you are not free to avoid the pain and inconviencce of choping that hand off. there is free will but again i wil say GOD LOVES YOU AND ALL HE WANTS YOU TO DO IS LOVE HIM BACK AND ACCEPT HIS SACRIFICE.

  50. on 04 Feb 2010 at 1:38 pm 50.FOC said …

    there are things in the bible or just facts that we do not understand, like Jesus being fully man and fully God. it is hard but I just accept it because i know it is true.so with free will i think of it like this, God has a plan he made us in a way he knew what we would do with our lives and so he put us where he wanted us and he knows us so well that we do what he expects, but he made us so we would, that is how we are programed. but if you think about it really hard, you will see that that voice or side taking in your head is not instinct or it just happend over time. how could it? it does not develop. side tracking do you believe in evolution? because acording to scientists the magma in the earth would have cooled if the world was so old. and there are many ways of finding the age of things and only 3or 4 could support evolution, but those are the ones that are in schools today. anyway I am curious of what you think of missionaries? do you think they waste their time and others money? do you think most Christians are proud and stubborn because they do not like what other people say about why God is fake?

  51. on 04 Feb 2010 at 5:17 pm 51.mr mxtplx said …

    ok so if the bible is wrong and there is no God then what keeps you from being mean and taking things when you know you will not get caught?

    because i know it is the wrong thing to do, and i deeply do not want to be a bad person or hurt people, and it pains me deeply when i feel that i have slipped up in this

    no god or hell involved

  52. on 04 Feb 2010 at 9:20 pm 52.Richard said …

    The idea that a person is good most of the time is because of a god or his commandments,I think not. Has any Christain ever thought that most folks don’t get into trouble because of fear but beause of being arrested for breaking man’s law and not gods.

    Steven Weinberg has this to say about why people who behave the way they do,
    “With or without religion, you have people doing good and evil people doing evil, but for good people to do evil things, that takes relgion.”
    I have heard it say that the christain God created us. Why would a loving god allow some babies to be born with 4 limbs, hairlips,distorted bodies, twin, with their heads pinned to one body, ad nauseam. Don’t these folks know that we come from sexual intercourse?, Not some god standing over us while preforming the act? .

  53. on 04 Feb 2010 at 10:01 pm 53.Richard said …

    Roc, answer to your question. was a member of Jehovas’ witness for a number of years.2.A man named Jesus probably lived. Yes, I think he was schizophrrenic.I love my family and hate my enimies. Whoin his right mind would say such stupid things.

    Also,Read Matthew 11:34,through 39th verses.

    Luke 14:25-33
    The Cost of Being a Disciple
    25: Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26″If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. 27And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

  54. on 05 Feb 2010 at 2:46 am 54.Ian said …

    Wow, you guys have a very distorted view of the Bible. If you actually picked up a commentary and did a little study, the scriptures you quote would make perfect sense.

    As far a people doing good out of fear is way off. Try Ephesians 2:8-9. We are saved by grace, we do good out of love for the one who provided the grace. Works never have and never will get one to heaven. I sure no one claims atheist cannot do good. There standard for good ironically are many of which are found in scripture. Atheist do good to obtain a clear conscious. Christians do it out of love for the Father.

  55. on 05 Feb 2010 at 6:06 am 55.Masai said …

    Richard, Wait a second your getting it all mixed up Jesus is not Schitzophrenic but he is three also called the trinity. unlike he can be everywhere anytime so he is not schitzophrenic. When he says that you must hate your father he only means i the worst of situations. for example if your father tells you to recant Jesus in that time and that place at that time i would hate the words coming out of his word and not do it. Also What he really means is that if a man loves any of his family more than God you cannot have an intimate realtionship with him and thus will not be a faithful disciple. Richard you dont have to hate your family just love God and have an intimate relationship with him

  56. on 05 Feb 2010 at 6:19 am 56.mr mxtplx said …

    jesus never said this:

    We are saved by grace, we do good out of love for the one who provided the grace. Works never have and never will get one to heaven

    a pernicious doctrine, for sure. in judaism we have no such thing, since we believe in the golden rule as the most fundamental commandment of god. as rabbi hillel put it:

    “thou shalt love the lord with all thy heart. do not do unto others what you would not have them do unto you. this is the whole of the law and the prophets – the rest is commentary”

    do you recognize the echo of hillel in jesus’ words?

    forget about your own little fate, and concentrate on doing good things – being kind and compassionate to others, and helping the helpless.

    this “faith alone” doctrine is nothing but selfishness – it puts the fate of the individual alone first and foremost, and denigrates the value of good works and community

    jesus was a righteous teacher who we atheists and rationalists, who feel that being moral means thinking of others before yourself, can well admire.

    the rest is commentary

  57. on 05 Feb 2010 at 7:36 am 57.Severin said …

    “Ha ha Ha, What? Dude…”

    Ha, ha, ha + ha, what, dude, is so funny? Your illiteracy?
    Who determined what was moral in ancient Egypt, some 5000 years ago?
    Who determined waht was moral in South American civilisations and in China at the same time?
    They never heard about your god (they used to have their own ones), and your god obviously did not hear about them. He had an “F” for geography, he thought the earth is a plate, and consists only of Mesopotamia, Egypt and Rome. Maybe a few miles more or less.
    And the morality of people in Egypt, China, South America…) did not differ at all from Bible “morality”, the “moral rules” were in those civilisations EXACTLY the same as biblical “morality”.

    Or, maybe you did not hear about animals eating their youngs? Read! Learning is good for everybody!

  58. on 05 Feb 2010 at 7:40 am 58.Severin said …

    And, of course, I refere again and again to the Bible:
    Kill children of your enemies!
    Kill, kill, masacre, torture, kill, sell your daughter to slaves, kill, beat, stone…. this are the most frequently used words in the Bible.
    Some morality!

  59. on 05 Feb 2010 at 7:53 am 59.Severin said …

    Masai 49
    “severin, God Loves you”

    Thank you, but no, thank you.
    Even if god exists, I would not like to be loved from some baby killer.

    You have to clear things for yourself: either the Bible stories are right, and if god exists, he is a blood-thirsty monster, or those stories are not right, in which case the whole conception of christianity stands on nothing.
    If you tell to yourself that god exists, O.K. with me, but do not YOU look for excuses in his name! Let him speak for himself: kill, masacre, stone, sell your daughters, masacre children…Do not YOU correct and/or interpret the Bible! It IS written there so as it is!

  60. on 05 Feb 2010 at 12:22 pm 60.Ian said …

    .mr mxtplx

    I never claimed Jesus uttered Ephesian 2:8-9. You did but it is God’s words. You have yet to catch on that Grace through faith is compatible with the two great commandments?

    Yes, I am concerned with my eternity. I guess I am just honest enough to admit it.

  61. on 05 Feb 2010 at 1:32 pm 61.FOC said …

    well first of all Richard if you would like to look it up, we translated the word reject to hate in our English version, which is really annoying but that is the reason Scholars learn Hebrew. so he is saying reject him and choose me.mr mxtplx why does it pain you to hurt people, I am trying to get to the root and explain that that is not by chance and it just does. I know you will not believe that right now but I think it is worth saying. and Sevrin. I think God pluged in a moral law into us so we would know right and wrong from the start which would explain Egypt and China and South America. and I know that the Lord looks bad when you see him killing and things of the sort but I am saying he had a plan , witch will not help you now. ok God did those things because besides bing a God of Love he is also Just. and by being a just God he judges those people and with Justice people were judged by families, which is sad. But that is how it is some times! so the reason I am not going to hell is that Jesus sacrificed himself because he loved me. back before Christ people were forgiven with sacrifices. for forgiveness. what masai is saying that Jesus died so that you could live with him and that offer will be open for a long time. I know you rejected it but please make sure that you are right try praying. it will probably not be a voice from heaven, but say “God if you exist, show yourself to me in some way.” just that please just try it. if he is not real than waste five seconds of your time for any respect you have for me. and if you do which i hope you try keep your eyes and ears aware for how he answers you, please. (maybe many of you will roll your eyes at this but please try)

  62. on 06 Feb 2010 at 8:52 am 62.Severin said …

    I have some education, and more valuable than that, I have my “common sense” (logic), my home education, my “home made” morality, and probably brought by genes (like many other people, and also unlike many other ones), I also have a feeling of deep desgusting with any sort of violence, killing, torturing, be it “justified” or not. I would even not call it “disgust”: when I see killing on TV (even if I know it is just acting), my body automatically clenches, and I feel my brain and my body fighting against it. I can not “justify” ANY violence, except direct defending of somebody’s life.

    There is no way me to join people who respond to biblical, or ANY OTHER killings and torturings by just saying “sad”! It was much much more than just “sad”.
    It was genocide, it was cruelty, it was unecessary lost of lives, accomplished with great pain of innocent people, including children. I can not find the right word for it, but your biblical god does not differ at all from any other god from any other religion before christianity and after christianity.
    How can one “justify” it? How can one respond by just saying “sad” to such a great pain?
    If your family would be the subject of such cruelty, would your reaspond be just to say:“sad”?

    If I would try to find “justifications” for biblical crimes, why then not to look for justification for Hitler’s, Stalin’s, Pol Pot’s and all other crimes?
    Thank you, but no thank you.

  63. on 06 Feb 2010 at 9:12 am 63.Severin said …

    „and I know that the Lord looks bad when you see him killing and things of the sort but I am saying he had a plan ,…“

    I expected the „god’s plan“ will appear in this debate. It always does. Whenever believers have no right answers, they refere to „god’s plan“.
    I am starting to doubt your intelligence, sorry.

    If god has a plan, he obviously planned me to be an atheist, so why bothering?
    He has a „plan“ for me, and no power will change it. He predestinated me for hell already!
    It must be the „thruth“, if you se how obstinate I am in keeping my opinion.

    He obviously had some (lunatic!) „plans“ with millions of innocent victims of himself (Bible), and millions of victimes of church (inquisition), and millions of innocent victims of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot……
    So let him do his job and do not bother! Live your life without thinking!
    You are responsible for nothing, god has plan for you and all for all others.

  64. on 06 Feb 2010 at 1:11 pm 64.FOC said …

    i never said his plan was for you to go to hell. no the opposite. i am telling you he does not want you to got to hell. and that is why he has put different people in your life to try and show you that. I gave you my answer for His violence but I do not know if I can fully comprehend many of his acts. that does not bother me. I like knowing how things work but if i need to know he will tell me and i can ask him one day personally. so let me ask you then what would you have done if you were a leader in a war and you were going to take a city that you knew would attack you? if your counselors said that it was wise and you agreed. if an army came and killed my parents I would want revenge. I am not that intelligent Severin. you may have guessed that I was young I am 15 years old. but I know the Lord has a purpose in my life so I am trying to do as much with my time as a can, I have come to the conclusion that my purpose in life is to bring glory to God. please don’t think less of me due to my age. I am curious to yours to be honest. but if that is too personal I do not mean to be nosy. if my family was attacked if I could fight i would, if i was useless at the time i would trust in God to somehow bring good to the situation or further his kingdom(more believers due to parents death or siblings)also it is amazing that you and I both do not fear death but for two reasons. i look forward to death actually, and if ever in our life time all the Christians disappear please find a way to join them, because when that happens the seven years that we are away will be horrible specially the second half. I am not a judge I am not going to talk to Hitler about what he did, but Satan is in rule of the earth at this time. which is horrible fortunately he asks God for approval of things. and it is cool because my father is a very wise man not from school(which i am so tired of)but he has experience and he has been through wars, disputes and all kinds of things.ok and the reason people go to hell is sin right, because sin can not be in God’s prescience. so with Jesus it is not. so people who do not accept that will be judged for stealing candy from a baby to massacring cities. so if you are not a bad person, it sounds like you are actually a pretty nice guy you are still judged for what you have done that God does not accept. i do not know if you knew it like that. let me ask as well do you accept the fact that there may actually be a God?

  65. on 06 Feb 2010 at 7:05 pm 65.Severin said …

    Dear FOC,
    On the first place I sincerely apologize for my „sharp attitude“. I did not know you are SO young! I am 67, and I am ashamed for what I told about your intelligence.
    There is no problem with your intelligence, I am absolutely sure, but with your being so young and inexperienced.
    Maybe I can help you somehow if I ask you to make a deep look in your own heart and mind, trying to exclude all „exterior“ influences, and ask yourself:
    „Could I kill anyone, except in case of defending my life or life of someone I love very much?
    Could I torture someone? Could I bring pain to someone?
    Could I, deep in my heart, justify massacring a child, no matter who did it?“

    If your answers to those questions are all negative, than you are a normal person. Your own „built in“, natural morality is in action.
    You, then need no god or religion to tell you what to do or how to behave.
    Instead to ask people about so sensitive matter as religion, use your own intelligence.
    I am an atheist (this is NOT a religion!), but by no means I think all believers are bad. I think they are mislead. Many of them are afraid to discover their intimate doubts about religion, to avoid to be „black sheep“ among majority of believers.
    I also do not think all atheists are good, as nothing in this world is only black or white.
    Please think and learn, and you will get your answers. Learning is the most important thing in the life of a young person, as it keep your brain active and „digs out“ not only answers, but more questions to be answered.
    Your sentence „I like knowing how things work“ shows how intelligent you are!
    Keep posing questions, and using your own brain to make conclusions.
    If you want personal contact, please send me your E-mail address by a message to my mobile phone number +381 63 82 05 950, then we can talk more.

  66. on 07 Feb 2010 at 9:44 am 66.Severin said …

    You can e-mail me, if you want,to severint.tomsic2@gmail.com

  67. on 07 Feb 2010 at 12:01 pm 67.FOC said …

    I do not believe I could honestly hurt or kill somebody who has done nothing that threatens me. But I know the Lord will not make me do anything I can not do. I decided to write you tell me if you recieve my email. thanks

  68. on 09 Feb 2010 at 12:25 pm 68.Masai said …

    mr. mtplx salvation by faith alone is not selfish infact if you really love God you will put others first and because you have an intimate relationship with the lord you cannot be selfish.

  69. on 09 Feb 2010 at 2:34 pm 69.Ian said …


    Just a little friendly advice. Be very careful who you email or call especially some guy posing as a friend on a blog. Its not a wise move.. His motive may be to just talk you out of your beliefs or it could be more.

    Looking at some of his posts on this blog, he appears to be searching quite a bit has well.

  70. on 09 Feb 2010 at 5:17 pm 70.FOC said …

    Thank you Ian
    I do not think that he can talk me out of my faith, but I am not bieng proud by saying this. I will be cautious and digest what he says.

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