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Christianity &Rationals &Science Thomas on 29 Dec 2009 01:06 am

Noetic Science

What is Noetic Science? It will soon have millions of followers, so it pays to have it on your radar. The Institute of Noetic Sciences defines it this way:

The word “noetic” comes from the ancient Greek nous, for which there is no exact equivalent in English. It refers to “inner knowing,” a kind of intuitive consciousness—direct and immediate access to knowledge beyond what is available to our normal senses and the power of reason.

What are ‘Noetic Sciences’?
Noetic sciences are explorations into the nature and potentials of consciousness using multiple ways of knowing—including intuition, feeling, reason, and the senses. Noetic sciences explore the “inner cosmos” of the mind (consciousness, soul, spirit) and how it relates to the “outer cosmos” of the physical world.

If that is too wordy, here is a “typical person” trying to describe it:

Noetic science? What is it?

So I came across ‘noetic science’ for the first time in the new Dan Brown novel and thought to expand my knowledge of this obscure branch of science by googling it…. Apparently, noetic science is a branch of science in which “scientists are trying to measure things we’ve long regarded as immeasurable, like prayer, intuition, or maybe even life after death, with the help of evidence-based research and peer review”. Now tell me, how do you measure prayer and/or its efficacy thereof? Really!!

A quick answer to the question: “Now tell me, how do you measure prayer and/or its efficacy thereof?” You measure it by asking, “Why won’t God heal amputees?” As soon as you pray to heal an amputation you can plainly see that prayer has no effect. This page explains why. Or you can perform scientific experiments – there have been dozens.

Or you can understand what is actually happening when people pray, as demonstrated in these two videos:

As you can see, prayer is a superstition, nothing more. We can perform more and more experiments to prove that over and over again, but it is not going to change anything. Prayer is a superstition just like “black cats cause bad luck” is a superstition. We could perform experiments on black cats for decades but nothing will change – the experiments will all demonstrate that black cats have no effect on the outcome of future events. At some point this obvious fact becomes conclusive to intelligent people, and there is no need for further study.

The following video offers an introduction to Noetic Science from the Institute of Noetic Sciences. Yes, Deepak Choprah appears, as you would expect, right after the introduction:

The Institude describes its activities in this way:

The institute explores consciousness from three perspectives:

(1) First-person perspective — Supporting individuals exploring and developing their own subjective consciousness (e.g., meditation and other spiritual practices). Emphasis on inner knowing and personal transformation.

(2) Second-person perspective — Exploring and supporting transformative relationships and intersubjective consciousness (e.g., compassionate dialogue, community building, a global wisdom society). Emphasis on transformative learning and collective wisdom.

(3) Third-person perspective — Gathering data about objective physiological correlates of consciousness (e.g., research using rigorous scientific protocols, including experiments in psi, mind-body healing, and subtle energies). Emphasis on scientific understanding.

If that sounds like “New Age” repackaged, you would be correct. This is the new New Age, and it will probably garner millions of supporters like New Age did. The fact that things like psi, mind-body healing, and subtle energies are easily debunked does not matter.

You can see the New Age/Spirituality/Religion angle in this article:

Spooky Coincidences and “Noetic Science”

There’s an Institute of Noetic Science (IONS) near San Francisco, and it happens to be the subject of a chapter in a book I read last week, NPR religion reporter Barbara Bradley Haggerty’s excellent Fingerprints of God: The Search for the Science of Spirituality. Haggerty investigates the scientific underpinnings of psychic phenomena. One of her themes is this idea of entanglement — that the universe is somehow knitted together in ways that materialist science currently can’t explain and maybe never will. On a certain view, a religious one, the unifying factor is God. We’re unified with each other through Him, which is why minds can affect each other across vast distances. That’s the case for the elementary reason that, as in the Jewish prayer Shema, “the Lord is One” (Deuteronomy 6:4). That doesn’t mean just that there’s one God instead of two or three. Rather, God really is One. Somehow, there’s a unity to God that extends to the rest of creation. If we could see to the heart of reality, we would perceive that everything that seems to enjoy a separate existence from God is really nullified before Him.

Our minds are mostly shut to evidence of this unity — it would be overwhelming otherwise, infinitely so — but occasionally, with more sensitive people or sometimes under the influence of events, spiritual practices, or certain substances, intimations will make themselves felt.

Haggerty’s book just came out in May so obviously it’s not Brown’s source on this. Still, readers of The Lost Symbol will be interested to read Haggerty’s journalistic take on the subject. She visits IONS and interviews researchers who have documented the way, for example, married couples can produce measurable physiological effects in their partners by directing loving thoughts to them even if the two are in separate, totally sealed rooms. Somehow their minds, one might venture to say their souls, are entangled. One woman, a subject in the research, turns out to be psychically sensitive to an unusual degree.

Let’s say this were true – either the part about married couples or the part about a woman who is “psychically sensitive to an unusual degree”. Then it would be possible to win a million dollars by demonstrating the effect to James Randi:

One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge

It is a very simple and friendly process to win $1 million:

At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event. The JREF does not involve itself in the testing procedure, other than helping to design the protocol and approving the conditions under which a test will take place. All tests are designed with the participation and approval of the applicant. In most cases, the applicant will be asked to perform a relatively simple preliminary test of the claim, which if successful, will be followed by the formal test. Preliminary tests are usually conducted by associates of the JREF at the site where the applicant lives. Upon success in the preliminary testing process, the “applicant” becomes a “claimant.”

Here James Randi explains how the challenge got started and how people can claim the prize:

Also interesting:

Anyone with real ability could easily claim the money.

The million dollars will not be claimed by these people because Noetic Science is nonsense.

156 Responses to “Noetic Science”

  1. on 29 Dec 2009 at 1:43 pm 1.Foster said …

    JREF million dollar is a know hustle. See why…

    http://www.dailygrail.com/features/the-myth-of-james-randis-million-dollar-challenge

  2. on 29 Dec 2009 at 2:17 pm 2.bernerbits said …

    Ugh.

    Much earlier this year, NPR did a week long story on the “science of God”, and kept glossing over all evidence that pointed to naturalism, bringing in “experts” like seminary professors to “explain” apparent naturalistic effects. On their last day they covered Noetic Sciences, attempting to pass it off as legit. I expect a lot better from public radio than pandering to “spiritualists”.

    I pushed it out of my mind until I read the Lost Symbol, which tried to use Noetic Sciences to suggest, nay ram it down your throat, that ancient mysticism and modern science are the *same thing*. He even wrote blubbering scientists into the novel trying valiantly but failing to actually show how they don’t reconcile.

    Of course there’s a scene in the book where a “basement hacker” is using super secret methods that alert the attention of the CIA in order to… do DNS resolution on an IP address. It was at that point that I discovered that Dan Brown is very good at BSing on stuff he knows nothing about, unless you actually know something about what he’s talking about.

    Anyhow two rants I’ve been saving for a while. Cool story bro.

  3. on 29 Dec 2009 at 10:39 pm 3.Anengiyefa said …

    “The million dollars will not be claimed by these people because Noetic Science is nonsense”

    As the “typical person” who tried to describe Noetic science at paragraph 2 of this post, I cannot agree more with the quote above. :)

    Dan Brown is a good story teller. And its okay too to tell a good story even as many others are doing. But it really isn’t necessary to go all out to assert that what you have written about is factual and true, when anyone with a bit of intelligence can see it for the humbug that it is..

  4. on 29 Dec 2009 at 11:10 pm 4.Hovind Reprise said …

    First of all, there is no doubt that Randi has used his alleged offer over a period of many years – to generate enormous publicity for himself and his cult of debunkers.

    Second of all, Randi’s offer sets himself up as judge and jury. And, of course, he has not the slightest interest in losing the very game that he has created. A true prize would have an independent panel of neutral judges and these judges, not Randi, should be in control of prize money, to determine if and when it shall be released.

    So while James Randi and his cult go around accusing the general public of falling for a wide variety of psychic scams, they themselves are engaged in perpetrating a scam of an equal and opposite sort. The final irony is that they are the very near a mirror image of the phonies they try to expose.

    In their fanatical zeal, they sometimes endeavor to put a stop to legitimate scientific and academic inquiry. They even attempted to interfere with the doctoral degree program in parapsychology at the University of California, Berkeley. When they go this far, as they did with Brenda Dunne, they simply reveal the philosophical and moral emptiness of their position.

  5. on 30 Dec 2009 at 1:10 am 5.Sister Chromatid said …

    You are wrong about Randi. He simply makes claimants assert what they can do and to agree upon a test that shows they can do it.

    If there was evidence for any invisible conscious entities or real mystical experiences, scientists (and all people) would have a strong interest in refining and honing that information. Who doesn’t want to believe in life after death? But wanting something to be true, doesn’t make it true. Nor does having a strong belief that something is true.

    There is no evidence that the supernatural exists. We know humans are easily fooled by certain explanations. That seems to be the likely explanation for ALL mysticism. There is no evidence of “higher truths” or “divine knowledge” and anyone who claims such is lying to themselves and/or others.

  6. on 30 Dec 2009 at 8:01 pm 6.John said …

    “There is no evidence that the supernatural exists. We know humans are easily fooled by certain explanations. That seems to be the likely explanation for ALL mysticism. There is no evidence of “higher truths” or “divine knowledge” and anyone who claims such is lying to themselves and/or others.”

    This isn’t entirely accurate. If you are willing to actually look at the valid research being done in the area you’ll find that there is at least enough evidence to think that our understanding of certain things is incomplete and warrants further study.

    The only way you can say there is no evidence is if you dismiss the evidence out of hand first. I’m not saying that there is enough evidence to prove anything, but there are a number of intriguing studies in a many areas that indicate to me that perhaps there are phenomena at work beyond what we’re typically open to considering, and maybe we should consider them.

    It’s not scientific to say that we already know all there is to know. That’s just silliness. Real science pursues the evidence where it leads no matter where it goes. If there’s nothing there, then it was still worth the research to explain away the anomalous evidence that they initially found.

  7. on 30 Dec 2009 at 9:23 pm 7.RTS said …

    You may find this link useful at some point. On the Tiller experiment:

    http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/aju9e/can_reddits_scientists_unwrap_the_pseudoscience/

  8. on 31 Dec 2009 at 7:15 am 8.Sister Chromatid said …

    John, scientists spend millions to obtain stardust from a comet because of what it can teach us. If there was anything to explore, then scientists would be on it for their own reasons as well as for those they love. Just because science doesn’t have an answer (yet) doesn’t mean that some guru does or that there’s some mystical “higher truth” involved.

    Randi, myself, and everyone would love for there to be evidence of life after death– then we could refine and hone that knowledge. But there IS NO EVIDENCE that any kind of consciousness can exist absent a material brain even though there’s lots of reasons humans would like to believe in such things. It’s not like any scientist would deny the evidence if it was really there.

    Sure, scientists don’t know everything, but mystics have never been shown to know ANYTHING true ahead of science. Science has an error correcting mechanism; mysticism does not.

  9. on 31 Dec 2009 at 11:11 am 9.whats up said …

    Foster – that is a good link but it ignores something. Psychics dont claim minor effects that need a thousand hours to research to slightly detect. They claim to be able to predict the future and they accept money to do it on the spot. The article notes someone “psychically sensitive to an unusual degree”. That should be instantly detectable.

  10. on 31 Dec 2009 at 11:12 am 10.Severin said …

    John 6
    “…that our understanding of certain things is incomplete and warrants further study.“

    Of course it is incomplete, and will be incomplete probably for very long time in future. Understanding of lightning was incomplete too some time ago (attributed to gods!), but was explained later by scientific arguments.
    The „measure“ („quantity“) of incompleteness of our knowledge is what matters!
    We (humans) had to wait for milleniums lightning to be explained. Then we waited only a century to explain it deeper. Then we waited only a few years to have more complete „picture“ of it. Today, we learn new details about lightning probably every day.
    Our lack of DETAILED understanding of lightning (or anything else), in 21st century, does not give us „stuff“ to speculate that „it must be something more“ in the „holes“ of our knowledge.
    „Holes“ are getting smaller and smaller!
    Science is developing exponentially these days.

    I doubt that any „hole“ in our knowledge will ever (in 21st century and later) leave place for speculations about anything unnatural. Beacuse most things assumed as unnatural some time ago appeared clearly explained and lost their unnatural „aura“ today. Remeber „flogiston“, „ether“, etc?
    Even Einstein’s theory is incomplete, but we are close to make a breaktrough (string theory).

    Noetic Theory is bullshit, as all the “theories” invented to “fill up the gaps” in our knowledge, but not as the main purpose!
    Main purpose is, as always: give us your money!

  11. on 13 Jan 2010 at 3:49 am 11.The Nihilist said …

    Thanks for putting together such a comprehensive article. It’s strewn with useful research material. :)

  12. on 17 Jan 2010 at 8:55 pm 12.Jim Doggett said …

    Are we over-thinking this? Need we disprove everything conjured up since the beginnning of civilization?

    I remember reading years ago a “scientific” explantion for every events in the Exodus. Yet, they failed to ask the first and most important question: did it happen? (Nope; not a shred of archelogical evidence. Pure fiction.)

    So I’m wondering if it might not be better to understand and simply explain the orgins of these beliefs/superstitions. Carl Sagan advanced a pretty plausible theory, which I’ll preface with this:

    In the course of huuman evolution, a big thing happened: fire. Kept us warm; protected us from animals that would eat us; made food softer, thus easier to digest — and tastier. All good. More importantly, it was the catalist for our socialization; sitting around a fire it seems is a terrific conversation-starter.

    Dr. Sagan added this possible senario: sitting around our fires, we looked skyward and saw stars. Not a lot conversation was needed before someone assumed we were seeing others sitting around their fires, maybe even chatting just as we were. But we were pretty dang amazed that “they” were not tethered to the ground as we were. Surely they had special powers.

    And we’ve been going hog wild ever since ascribing all manner of special powers possessed by beings that were entirely conjured-up. But what really boggles the mind is that we ain’t been slowin’ down any, despite our current level of understanding. Absolutely astonishing.

    In short, it’s all made up. That’s patently obvious. So why debate the many minutia? Seems kinda pointless, IMO.

    FWIW,

    jd

  13. on 17 Jan 2010 at 10:39 pm 13.Max said …

    Not much, your argument does not hold up. In fact, this is exactly what we would expect. The British Museum in London displays inscriptions from the walls of the palace of the Assyrian Emperor, Sancheriv. These show scenes from Sancheriv’s military campaigns from the 8th century BCE, including graphic depictions of destroyed enemies (decapitations, impalings, etc.). Sancheriv himself is depicted as larger than life.

    But one element is missing from these inscriptions: There are no dead Assyrians! That is consistent with the ancient “historical” style — negative events, failures and flaws are not depicted at all. When a nation suffers an embarrassing defeat, they usually whitewash the mistakes and destroy the evidence.

    This idea has significant ramifications for archeology and the Exodus. The last thing the ancient Egyptians wanted to record is the embarrassment of being completely destroyed by the God of a puny slave nation. Would the Egyptians ever want to preserve details of the destruction of fields, flocks, and first borns plus the death of Pharaoh and the entire Egyptian army at the Red Sea?

    In other words, we wouldn’t expect to find prominent attention to Moses’ humiliation of Pharaoh even if it occurred.

    In one major event, the battle of Kadesh on the Orantes River between the Hitites and the Egyptian Pharaoh Ramses II, both sides record it as a major victory, and is depicted as such.

    Interestingly, the Torah is unique among all ancient national literature in that it portrays its people in both victory and defeat. The Jews — and sometimes their leaders — are shown as rebels, complainers, idol-builders, and yes, descended from slaves.

    This objective portrayal lends the Torah great credibility. As the writer Israel Zangwill said: “The Bible is an anti-Semitic book. Israel is the villain, not the hero, of his own story. Alone among the epics, it is out for truth, not heroics.”

  14. on 17 Jan 2010 at 10:58 pm 14.Severin said …

    There is an excellent explanation of persistance of keeping illogical beliefs by humans,connected with evolution.
    Animal and human youngs are conditioned by genes to obey immediatelly and uncoditionally their parents before they collect some experience of their own.
    If the signal is “run”, then run, do not wait, do not ask anything, do not postpone your reaction, do not question parents decision, just BELIEVE.
    This was inherited through genes to save lives of unexperianced youngs and to keep the existance of species.
    Such an unconditional obedience was not imposed by genes to be for a life, but only for the “childhood”.

    As evolution solutions are far of being perfect (examples on request), and it is more confortable for a young individual (especially human) to keep a “supreme being” (parents) responsible for their lives, it seems that it is very difficult to get out off this “unconditional obedience gap”.
    It is especially difficult for humans, as their childood/dependance on parents period, compared to their total life time, is far the longest one among all the mammals.
    That might be a good explanation for insane behaving of some very intelligent people: they understand everything, they can be ingenious, but they DO NOT WANT to quit believing religious nonsensens, probably forced by prolonged “unconditional obedience gap” imposed by genes.

    Additional reason could be fear of death. All religions offer eternal life in case one obeys rules this religion imposes, and people are terrified by death.

  15. on 20 Mar 2010 at 11:06 am 15.Anonymous said …

    prove you exist

  16. on 20 Mar 2010 at 11:55 am 16.Anonymous said …

    prove you exist, o ya and do it with someone elses words in a book ya have…..

    if this world is not real
    then you are not real

    if everything is in constant change
    then there can be no constant proof

    words cannot touch the tip
    nor thoughts

    so you keep on preaching your o-so wise thoughts
    and when you can in every way describe the entire
    universe in the english language….

    the only language your huge brain have mastered
    then minds will listen

    as for your proof for non existence of a “god”
    you are like a common lawyer in which you use words
    to contradict words

    disprove this

    you are imperfect
    therefore…. there cannot be perfect: to include the earths life and inhabitants
    if and only if there is only you the “wise man” you are the top of the food chain… the master

    and your world is imperfect and nature and the earth cannot live or repair itself because you as the earth has been organized “accidently” to fail. so mankind should pollute and cut down the rainforest and destroy everything. You see its too late once you start to ruin an already imperfect nature it will only fail faster. Imperfection can not perfect or repair itself back to its begin. Unless it is programed to.

    Its people like you that rule here on psuedo thrones and twist words like monkey you came from.

    I hope you change your mind and understand that what you know is that you might be breathing and living….

    But you are dying
    and that is the only thing that mankind can prove.
    so what anyone believes or disbelieves is up to debate.

    there is truth and lie
    and there is a void in deciet
    See you in 2012 monkey boy

  17. on 04 Aug 2010 at 11:15 am 17.Wiekus said …

    Please read Slave Species of god.

  18. on 04 Aug 2010 at 11:17 am 18.Wiekus said …

    By Michael Tellinger

  19. on 02 Sep 2010 at 7:39 pm 19.Vinod said …

    Hi Friend,

    I do believe that god exist. It is there well if i put it in scientific terms, then there is some super power above everything we know and which is leading us, You are asking to prove prayers, but the question is how will you prove it?

    hahahahaha

    Suppose you conducted 1000 experiments and if all 1000 experiments got passed so will you say god doesn’t exist?

    hahahahaaaaaaaaaa

    may be there must be 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000number of experiments should be conducted to get at least 1 result.

    We are very small in this universe, and our understanding and time we have spent here is nothing. so we cannot judge. may be people suffer even after praying because the sinned a lot in last birth, may be, may be not i would suggest you try to understand yourself first, try to know yourself, then look around.

    This life is very small to understand our purpose so, anyways whatever has to happen will happen, so loose yourself and with pure heart go out and have fun, stop worrying about god and all, live life cherish what you have, be happy this is what matters most.

    May be on the way you find your god and answers of all your questions.

    hahahahahaaaaaaaaaaa

  20. on 02 Sep 2010 at 7:41 pm 20.Vinod said …

    Everything is relative.

  21. on 02 Sep 2010 at 7:48 pm 21.Vinod said …

    We believe in laws of physics, but may be outside of our known, unknown world beyond our imagination, beyond this infinity there can be other worlds where laws of physics doesn’t work. may be there can be 1000 worlds like them. and each time it is expanding may be there will be a world where time doesn’t exist.

  22. on 02 Sep 2010 at 8:09 pm 22.Vinod said …

    Everyone needs a base to stand upon, god provide us the same base to our limitless mind, it may be illusion but then what is not? It is us who categorize things 100 years ago flying was an illusion all gadgets around us are created by our mind, if want to its our mind which makes things real or unreal, if it tells us we can even touch the air and people will say i am crazy so in that way an average amount of illusion is called worlds greatest mind human mind and slight deviation that may cause inconvenience to others is called madness.

    hahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

    This is why god is most powerful because it has HOPE, If you trust him you will be happy, and if not you are ruining yourself you are cutting your own base of HOPE, whenever you want him or in any shape or religion it will be there. When no one is there it will still be there to hug you, you deny him for your whole life but still he will be there with you, if you you get hurt he will bleed, he is for us, its in good, bad everywhere.

    Instead of analyzing or evaluating or doing experiments it would be worth to spend same time helping poors, giving faith to others, going back to home to see your old mom without any reason, to forgive enemies, make friendship with your past.

    hahahahaaaaaaaaaa

    You will see god itself, you will be overwhelm. If you just try to prove something i am not sure whether you will get or not but if you are desperate he will surely help.

    Hope i am sounding NON-SENSE

    hahahahaaaaaaaaaaaa

    have a great day………….

  23. on 02 Sep 2010 at 8:14 pm 23.Vinod said …

    God cannot be contained in some book or CD. He is very simple and also very complicated. Just go out search him in eyes of a new born, fresh breeze, under the sun, in ocean, in insects, in flowers, in people, in earth, inside you, everywhere around you.

    hahhahahaaaaaaaaaaaaa

    He is nowhere but still everywhere.

  24. on 02 Sep 2010 at 8:19 pm 24.Vinod said …

    You will crucify me but you yourself will call me in need, and i promise I WILL COME.

  25. on 03 Sep 2010 at 3:13 am 25.A real-ist said …

    “He is very simple and also very complicated. Just go out search him in eyes of a new born, fresh breeze, under the sun, in ocean, in insects, in flowers, in people, in earth, inside you, everywhere around you. He is nowhere but still everywhere.”

    Ah, that is where he is hiding. Damn, I was looking in the wrong places. By the way, something cannot be at both ends of the spectrum. Nowhere but everywhere? Uh, sounds neat, but no, if he is nowhere he is nowhere.

  26. on 03 Sep 2010 at 7:25 am 26.Severin said …

    19 Vinod
    “…but the question is how will you prove it?
    hahahahaha…”

    Many experiments were done, including controlled experiments with lot of people included, which showed us that “respond” to preyers were only coincidents.
    Everything just happens, with or without prayers, depending on many other circumstances EXCEPT prayers.

  27. on 03 Sep 2010 at 7:40 am 27.Severin said …

    19 Vinod
    “may be people suffer even after praying because the sinned a lot in last birth…”

    Could you kindly give me some examples of “sinning” which would direct god not to respond to our prayers?

    I would especially appreciate examples of sins of a 8 year old christian (or any other!) child in Africa who died of hunger, because god chose not to respond his/her prayers because he/she “sinned a lot”.

  28. on 03 Sep 2010 at 7:46 am 28.Severin said …

    23 Vinod
    “Just go out search him in eyes of a new born,…”

    I searched for him in eyes of new born in Ethiopia, before they died of hunger.

    He was’n there.

  29. on 03 Sep 2010 at 11:38 am 29.A Romantic said …

    Vinod

    Exactly! I just give a little chuckle for those who claim there is no proof when it is all around us. They want an experiment or see his flesh but they will not accept all the signs…LOL

    Reminds me of the mice in the piano explaining the music in the piano is caused by hammers hitting the wires but nobody is controlling the order of the hammer strikes. It just happens and they sit back and enjoy the music.

  30. on 03 Sep 2010 at 1:44 pm 30.Anonymous said …

    bad example with the mice and piano. all the mice have to do is go outside the piano and see the person hitting the keys.

  31. on 03 Sep 2010 at 6:49 pm 31.A Romatic said …

    “all the mice have to do is go outside the piano and see the person hitting the keys.”

    That’s all? Nope, they are sealed in and traps will not let them escape. Why escape if it is all they know and why escape if they think they already have the answer?

  32. on 04 Sep 2010 at 8:41 am 32.3D said …

    31.A Romatic said …

    “all the mice have to do is go outside the piano and see the person hitting the keys.”
    That’s all? Nope, they are sealed in and traps will not let them escape. Why escape if it is all they know and why escape if they think they already have the answer?

    His point was that there’s a scientific answer of why the hammers are hitting the keys, and it’s just outside the piano. They’re just incapable of learning it, either because they’re trapped in the piano, or (as you said) they have no desire to enlighten themselves about it, because they think they know the answer.

    In other words, the mice are Christians. There is a perfectly logical reason the hammers move, to be discovered, but they think some supernatural force does it, so they’re content with that crappy explanation.

    The atheist mice would find a way outside the piano (if they weren’t burned alive as heretics by the Christian mice first).

  33. on 04 Sep 2010 at 8:43 am 33.3D said …

    29.A Romantic said …

    Vinod
    Exactly! I just give a little chuckle for those who claim there is no proof when it is all around us. They want an experiment or see his flesh but they will not accept all the signs…LOL

    Yes, I agree! How could anyone look at a beautiful majestic mountain, and not come to the obvious conclusion that God wants us not to eat certain kinds of meat, and persecute homosexuals?

  34. on 04 Sep 2010 at 6:11 pm 34.Xenon said …

    “They’re just incapable of learning it, either because they’re trapped in the piano, or (as you said) they have no desire to enlighten themselves about it, because they think they know the answer.”

    Yes, they are atheist mice. They only believe in mice and natural causations. The hammers move, we don’t know why, but one day we will. However, it will be a natural phenomenon not something of intelligence playing music. C’mon you ridiculous mice!

  35. on 04 Sep 2010 at 7:44 pm 35.3D said …

    34.Xenon said …

    “They’re just incapable of learning it, either because they’re trapped in the piano, or (as you said) they have no desire to enlighten themselves about it, because they think they know the answer.”
    Yes, they are atheist mice. They only believe in mice and natural causations. The hammers move, we don’t know why, but one day we will. However, it will be a natural phenomenon not something of intelligence playing music. C’mon you ridiculous mice!

    The intelligence playing the music is a natural phenomenon, stupid.

    If the mice are limited in their observations of the universe (like say being trapped in the piano through no fault of their own) then they are more likely to believe outlandish shit, like the music is coming from a God-mouse beyond their comprehension. It’s wrong, but understandable — they don’t have the scope of understanding they would have if they were outside.

    If they’re not limited, and can walk outside the piano, then they are analogous to modern day people who understand a lot more about the universe than the fucknuts who wrote the Bible.

    If a few of them CAN escape, but still CHOOSE to be ignorant morons by staying inside the piano believing in Mouse-God, while the rest venture out seeking understanding about their surroundings, then they are analogous to… you.

  36. on 04 Sep 2010 at 10:46 pm 36.A Romatic said …

    Xenon glad to see you get the analogy. To the mice who have never left the piano, a human being with the ability to play music would not be the dubious “Natural” act.

    Compare that with man who cannot even leave his own planet and you have those who make the same illogical arguments about no God although the evidence of intelligence creating our universe is overwhelming. The hammers bang away creating music and they still make the claim “no intelligence created the universe”. Ah, yeah right!

  37. on 05 Sep 2010 at 10:46 pm 37.3D said …

    36.A Romatic said …

    Xenon glad to see you get the analogy. To the mice who have never left the piano, a human being with the ability to play music would not be the dubious “Natural” act.

    That’s true. The mice inside the piano would not discover the very simple cause that is producing the music. That’s because the mice inside the piano are obscured from reality. Either because they don’t have the ability to see it through a closed piano (like our ancestors who hadn’t yet discovered science) or because they’re willfully ignorant and choose to stay inside the piano and ignore the reality presented to us by science (like you ‘tards living in the present day but still choosing to believe in dopey shit like cavemen did).

    Compare that with man who cannot even leave his own planet

    Can’t leave his own planet? Ever hear of Apollo 11? Don’t tell me you’re also one of those nutters who think we never landed on the moon, too?

    Actually never mind, that story isn’t any dumber than the Bible I guess. Please continue.

    and you have those who make the same illogical arguments about no God although the evidence of intelligence creating our universe is overwhelming.

    No, actually, if an ‘intelligent’ being designed our universe, for the purpose of human life on Earth, then he’s an incompetent idiot.

    The hammers bang away creating music and they still make the claim “no intelligence created the universe”. Ah, yeah right!

    Let me get this straight… the hammers bang away because someone is playing the piano. You and I see that the piano is being played by a person, but the mice inside the piano come up with a delusional story about what’s really making the music because they’re too stupid to really figure it out.

    …And you think the mice are the SCIENTISTS?!

    Hate to break it to you, Cletus, but that’s basically the Behind the Scenes making of the Bible in a nutshell, starring mice in a piano.

  38. on 06 Sep 2010 at 6:19 am 38.Severin said …

    34 Xenon
    „The hammers move, we don’t know why, but one day we will.“

    Exactly!
    Like all other things supposed to have unnatural causes, in past, but were explained in logical scientific way later.

    If human race behaved your way, we would still think lightning was god’s anger, earth was the center of universe and stars were the fires gods are burning in the sky to warm themselves.

    Your “gap god” is losing reliability! Less and less unexplained things!
    If I see what tremendous steps is science doing in explaining things, why would’nt I be patient and wait fo further explanations?
    They WILL come.

  39. on 06 Sep 2010 at 6:37 am 39.Severin said …

    29 A Romantic
    “Reminds me of the mice in the piano explaining the music in the piano is caused by hammers hitting the wires but nobody is controlling the order of the hammer strikes.“

    Maybe you like to be a mouse!
    I don’t.
    I need explanations and I get them. Usually I am very satisfied with them, because I see them WORKING (atom energy, GPS, medicine…).
    Quite logically: if I get many answers, why wouldn’t I expect more, and get them too?

    Some examples for you (already discussed here): Einstein’s theory was not complete (and still is not!), in some parts it was even wrong (universe constant), BUT parts which enabled construction of A-bomb and A-power plants were O.K., and they WERE constructed.

    Newton’s theories were wrong, but WORKED (and are still working!) in limited number of cases.
    So what?
    Other ingenious scientists come and upgrade theories to be CLOSER to reality.

    Just WHY wouldn’t I expect everything to be explained scientifically, if I see so many things already explained, which were not explained in past?
    And, of course, unlike making man from mud, they all WORK.

  40. on 06 Sep 2010 at 1:09 pm 40.Xenon said …

    @ AR #36

    Try asking atheists what would constitute proof of God to them. What you will find is regardless of what God would do they would ALWAYS make the claim “We don’t know but we will one day”. Then they go to the “Time and Chance diddit”. Much like a logically written piece of music being played on the Baby Grand is obviously intelligently composed, a logically designed universe is also obviously designed. LOL, and they claim to be the rationale group. I understand confusion about the nature of God but His existence should be without question.

  41. on 06 Sep 2010 at 3:19 pm 41.3D said …

    40.Xenon said …

    @ AR #36
    Try asking atheists what would constitute proof of God to them. What you will find is regardless of what God would do they would ALWAYS make the claim “We don’t know but we will one day”.

    Not true; it’s just that the type of evidence required to prove things to the satisfaction of normal, non-delusional people can never be met by mythological creatures. It’s not because we’re setting an unfair standard of proof; it’s because THEY’RE NOT REAL and don’t exist, therefore they never step forward and prove themselves.

    If a sentient being appeared, claimed he had supernatural powers that defied physics, and proved it, I would believe it. For example, if he said “I will make another Mount Everest appear in the middle of downtown Los Angeles at 7:23 PM tomorrow” and then it appeared.

    But, as even theists will tell you, that will never happen because God doesn’t interact with the universe in any measurable way. A delusional Christian will list 80 different excuses why we can’t measure God’s influence on the universe, but in reality, it’s for the same reason we can’t get a video of the Tooth Fairy leaving quarters under pillows. Cause it ain’t happening.

    Much like a logically written piece of music being played on the Baby Grand is obviously intelligently composed, a logically designed universe is also obviously designed.

    But an obviously intelligent, complex God with the power to create the Universe, just “poof”-ed out of nothing.

    Or was there a Super-God that made God? Where’d he come from, Sparky?

    LOL, and they claim to be the rationale group.

    Yeah, I mean, who can argue with flawless logic like, “Everything complex has to have a creator! Except, uh, really complex stuff like God. But everything else, yeah.”

    I understand confusion about the nature of God but His existence should be without question.

  42. on 06 Sep 2010 at 9:13 pm 42.A Romatic said …

    X if atheist will not accept creation as proof then nothing will convince them. Even 3Ds little summary above would be deemed a trick! They would never believe a Ford factory would design and create itself although all materials to produce such a site are all available in nature. Yet, they believe a cell which is complex as any city just time and chanced itself into existence.

    I figure most when the grow up will recognize what is evident to the vast majority of people. Time and Chance is all they need. But hey, I am a Romantic!

  43. on 07 Sep 2010 at 10:26 am 43.3D said …

    42.A Romatic said …

    X if atheist will not accept creation as proof then nothing will convince them. Even 3Ds little summary above would be deemed a trick!

    Let’s see. You just asked what I would accept as proof. I told you perfectly straightforward and clearly a straight answer — let’s see God do something that defies physics and something humans can’t do. Like put a mountain in the middle of downtown LA. And make it be consistent with known geological records so that it appears to have been there 25 million years. That would absolutely prove to me that there is a God. (Not that it’s the crazy God in the Bible, per se, but he could carve that info into the side of the mountain if he wanted to — I don’t see why he’d lie.)

    Now, of course, you know it’s never going to happen — because it’s impossible. So the only argument you have left is to make up a statement that some hypothetical me would hypothetically say if God hypothetically put a hypothetical mountain in LA.

    I’m sorry, but you’re pathetic.

    They would never believe a Ford factory would design and create itself although all materials to produce such a site are all available in nature. Yet, they believe a cell which is complex as any city just time and chanced itself into existence.

    Right. That’s because, unlike you, I am smart enough to tell the difference between a car (assembled from parts in a factory) and a living thing (born from other living things and shown to have evolved over time naturally).

    (Well, it didn’t “chance” itself into existence, but I know that’s ‘tard-speak for “evolution” so I’ll let that slide without getting into a meaningless side debate over semantics.)

    Anyway, to sum up. Car =/= living organism. Also, the sky is not green, and the two millionth known prime number is not 7. Any more obvious things you need explained to you while we’re here chatting?

  44. on 07 Sep 2010 at 3:36 pm 44.A Romatic said …

    3D it is true. Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak (or see their thoughts on a PC). If I agreed with you we’d both be wrong.

    Not everything in creation is living. You may not have noticed the fact but yet it is true. You also need to take a look at the latest theory like abiogenesis. If non-life can produce life and ultimately the cell, the Toyota factory should be a cakewalk for the time and chance did’it theory.

    Too bad time and chance can’t really pull off such a miracle. I might play the lottery more.

    I have also seen a green sky. You need to get out more.

  45. on 07 Sep 2010 at 4:36 pm 45.3D said …

    44.A Romatic said …

    You also need to take a look at the latest theory like abiogenesis. If non-life can produce life and ultimately the cell, the Toyota factory should be a cakewalk for the time and chance did’it theory.

    Yes you’re right! One cell coming into existence through a rare sequence of events is crazy. But an invisible man coughing a soul into a mud-man’s nostril, demanding slavery and stonings, then disappearing to not influence the world for 5000 years — now that makes perfect sense.

    Since you think God poofed himself into existence out of nothing, I’m surprised that you believe the shitty cars in the Ford factory were made by humans. Maybe they poofed out of nothing like God did?

  46. on 07 Sep 2010 at 5:46 pm 46.A Romatic said …

    45 “Yes you’re right”

    Yes I am. Yes, a cell the equivalent of a nano-city.

    Of course, you jump off the subject and into the nature of God with irrational ramblings. A whole different discussion and not relevant to the mere existence. How would I know that would be you next line of argument?

    Atheists always jump to the actions of the God they disagree with rather than the merit of existence. So old…

    I have some fine Ford products. They were smart enough not to need an Obama-out. Along with green skies, you need to get out more. Also, if you fly into John Wayne airport you will see some nice mountains right near LA. I think you have your proof!

  47. on 07 Sep 2010 at 6:25 pm 47.Severin said …

    A Romantic, Xenon
    “In the beginning, the universe was ruled by two gods: the sky-god, called Lani, and his wife, Papa, the earth-goddess. Out of their sacred love, many children were born. But the children of the earth and sky were trapped in darkness between the embraced bodies of their parents.
    One day a child named Kane braced his shoulders against the earth …. and with his mighty arms and legs lifted the sky high above the earth. Kane’s brothers hurled spears around the horizon, forever separating the earth and sky …. the two never to touch again.
    In loneliness, the sky weeps for his wife …. and so the tropical rains pour from the heavens. And when the earth yearns for her husband, the land quakes and volcanoes erupt.
    To appease their parents, one of Kane’s brother, named Kewa, climbed the Great Mountain to find a worthy gift. From its highest peak he gazed down into a hidden valley. There, in the mist, he saw the playful stars, dancing like sparks above a fire.
    Kewa called the stars to his side. When they reached the summit, Kewa stowed the stars in his magical canoe …. and paddled up …. up into the heavens.
    There he scattered the stars across the outstretched body of his father. Kewa’s magical canoe, called Uluao, can still be seen among the stars.”

    This is the true story of creation!

  48. on 07 Sep 2010 at 6:30 pm 48.Severin said …

    Oops! Mybe THIS one is right!?
    “Ometeotl was the first existence to be. This Oldest of Old Gods was therefore, everything that was. When everything exists in one being, all opposites unite. The Creator is both generator of chaos and giver of harmony and order. Ometeotl is both spirit and matter, fire and water, black and white, stillness and movement, life and death, creator and destroyer, and the embodiment of good and evil. Because of this, the Oldest of Old Gods is called the God of Duality, and is the divinity where opposites converge in a supreme manifestation of The All….
    … Once created, the Supreme God Ometeotl, being both masculine and feminine, spawned four children who became the ministers of the Genesis and the creation of our visible, palpable, physical and changing world… These children are separate, yet the same, and for this reason they are referred to as the four manifestations of one god, Tezcatlipoca, God of the Smoking Mirror….
    …The four Tezcatlipocas created our world. They then created the gods destined to the preservation of this world, the sustaining of all natural phenomena, and the unchaining of the life forms. These four gods, children of Ometeotl, have ever since served as the guardians of humans, as those who administer both awards and punishment, and as our guides.”

  49. on 07 Sep 2010 at 6:40 pm 49.Severin said …

    „P’an Ku is hatched from a cosmic egg. Half the shell is above him as the sky, the other half below him as the earth. He grows taller each day for 18,000 years, gradually pushing them apart until they reach their appointed places.

    After all this effort P’an Ku falls to pieces. His limbs become the mountains, his blood the rivers, his breath the wind and his voice the thunder. His two eyes are the sun and the moon. The parasites on his body are mankind.”

    I am confused! Help!
    HOW to make my choice?
    WHICH creation story to accept? WHY?

  50. on 07 Sep 2010 at 6:46 pm 50.Severin said …

    “He was. Taaroa was his name.
    He stood in the void: no earth, no sky, no men.
    Taaroa calls the four corners of the universe; nothing replies.
    Alone existing, he changes himself into the universe.
    Taaroa is the light, he is the seed, he is the base, he is the incorruptible.
    The universe is only the shell of Taaroa.
    It is he who puts it in motion and brings forth its harmony.”

    Thousands more!

  51. on 07 Sep 2010 at 6:49 pm 51.Severin said …

    “The creator Juok moulded all people of earth. While he was engaged in the work of creation, he wandered about the world.”

    This one smells like beginning of christianity!

    By the way, were A&E black or white?

  52. on 07 Sep 2010 at 8:40 pm 52.Horatio said …

    Don’t mind Sev he has a lot of time on his hands.

    Atheists must argue against a particular God due to the fact arguments against a Creator are so ridiculous. Mathematically, I would venture just an estimate that the probability of the BB through time and chance producing life and complexity we know today must be 1 in about 1×10^58. Mind you this is just an estimate but clearly shows that creation by chance is impossible.

    I am glad to see Severin is looking for an alternative. They all sound better than his own rendition:).

  53. on 07 Sep 2010 at 9:21 pm 53.Observer said …

    #52 Hor “Mathematically, I would venture just an estimate that the probability of the BB through time and chance producing life and complexity we know today must be 1 in about 1×10^58.”

    First, I would venture a guess that you could not pass a freshman probability exam. Second, what idiotic, or should I say, Dwayne Gish-ish, site did you get that ridiculous number from?

    You are a made-up character. You are a contributor to christwire.org.

  54. on 07 Sep 2010 at 10:42 pm 54.3D said …

    46.A Romatic said …

    Atheists always jump to the actions of the God they disagree with rather than the merit of existence. So old…

    Theists always snip out one sentence, go on an incoherent rant, and don’t include a quote of the post they are allegedly responding to.

    Shit, I know you don’t want to deal with the actual arguments being made here, but why bother even showing up then? Just immerse yourself in some awesome Kirk Cameron videos.

  55. on 07 Sep 2010 at 10:44 pm 55.3D said …

    47.Severin said …

    A Romantic, Xenon
    “In the beginning, the universe was ruled by two gods: the sky-god, called Lani, and his wife, Papa, the earth-goddess. Out of their sacred love, many children were born. But the children of the earth and sky were trapped in darkness between the embraced bodies of their parents.
    One day a child named Kane braced his shoulders against the earth …. and with his mighty arms and legs lifted the sky high above the earth. Kane’s brothers hurled spears around the horizon, forever separating the earth and sky …. the two never to touch again.
    In loneliness, the sky weeps for his wife …. and so the tropical rains pour from the heavens. And when the earth yearns for her husband, the land quakes and volcanoes erupt.
    To appease their parents, one of Kane’s brother, named Kewa, climbed the Great Mountain to find a worthy gift. From its highest peak he gazed down into a hidden valley. There, in the mist, he saw the playful stars, dancing like sparks above a fire.
    Kewa called the stars to his side. When they reached the summit, Kewa stowed the stars in his magical canoe …. and paddled up …. up into the heavens.
    There he scattered the stars across the outstretched body of his father. Kewa’s magical canoe, called Uluao, can still be seen among the stars.”
    This is the true story of creation!

    No good! Not enough slavery, burnings or stonings. Thumbs down.

  56. on 08 Sep 2010 at 5:58 am 56.Severin said …

    52 Horatio,
    “…1 in about 1×10^58.”
    Please address me to the source of your probability ratio! It must be that it came from a kitchen of a “creationist intellectual” which fascinates ignorant people with his ties, eloquence, false logic, and possibly with some “Dr.” titles from some religious school, which YOU pay with your contributions.

    Physics and chemistry are exact sciences with well elaborated laws, which do not wait for a god to act, but act according to well known and well described conditions.
    When conditions for some reaction are reached, it happens with probability of 100%.
    It CAN NOT OMIT!
    Try to STOP diesel fuel to burn if you apply enough pressure to it (diesel motors): you will FAIL in trying to stop reaction, and diesel fuel will NOT FAIL to burn.
    For example, conditions for fusion (prssure, temperature, density) occurred at some time in past on our sun, and it started to “burn” spontaniously. It did not wait a god to inniciate the fire.
    For example, gravitation acts exactly according to laws of physics.
    For example, if some monomers are present in a warm “soup”, they will react with 100% certainty if only they are present and temperature is high enough. They will not wait a god to innitiate the reaction.
    This is the very base of industry of polymers.
    For example, milk will coagulate to cheese if you put acid in it, and it will happen with 100% certainty.
    For example, radioactive elements will naturally decompose to other elements in exactly predicted time, with 100% certainty. Gods not needed.
    For example, by very good known mechanism, some elements will fuse to more complex ones, with 100% certainty, no matter what. Conditions for such reactions were present (and still are present) in some stars.

    I do not need mountains to be moved to start to believe in god.
    I would appreciate a pot of water to stay before me for a month without evaporating.
    Unfortunatelly, the water WILL evaporate with 100% certainty.
    No power to stop it!

  57. on 08 Sep 2010 at 6:31 am 57.Severin said …

    34 Xenon
    „The hammers move, we don’t know why, but one day we will.“

    Beer and cheese were produced 5000 years ago, maybe even earlier.
    These are microbiological processes based on natural laws of (bio)chemistry which are well known today.
    Beer and cheese makers produced perfect beers and cheeses WITHOUT knowing biochemistry, for milleniums.
    They probably thought god’s will would direct their production to get good or bad products, BUT, they intuitively applied some „rules“ acquired from their elders, to their processes.
    They did NOT rely to gods, but carefully adjusted production conditions according to WHAT THEY KNEW.
    They DID NOT just let things going randomly, they EXPLORED, and EXPLORED, to LEARN how those processes REALLY worked.

    If they said 5000 years ago: we do not know how, but one day we will, they WERE RIGHT!

    Just WHY is it so difficult to understand?
    How many things we did not know, and know them today?
    WHAT is wrong with this logic?

    Gap of ignorance is getting more and more narrow! Less and less room for gods!

  58. on 08 Sep 2010 at 6:49 am 58.Severin said …

    31 A Romantic
    “That’s all? Nope, they are sealed in and traps will not let them escape. Why escape if it is all they know and why escape if they think they already have the answer?”

    This is a perfect description of a believer in god!
    You perfectly described yourself in these words!

    As I said, it seems you LIKE to be a mouse!

  59. on 08 Sep 2010 at 3:53 pm 59.Horatio said …

    Lol, I knew Nose Buster would need to address my estimate for the probability of life which was my entire purpose. Another Pavlov’s Dog if you will. Buster weren’t you one of the Cosby kids back in the 70s?

    Actually the many estimates by many sources are much higher. I believe Hugh Ross had the estimate up at 1 to 1×10^400! So, you may argue with one of the many sources out there. I was being very very conservative with my number. In reality it is impossible to come up with a very solid number due to the many assumptions and many unknowns. We only know it is impossible without intelligence.

  60. on 08 Sep 2010 at 4:32 pm 60.Observer said …

    #59 Hor “We only know it is impossible without intelligence.” By “We” are you now claiming to be with the very liberal apologists? The comment “Buster weren’t you one of the Cosby kids back in the 70s?” has more than a whiff of the cracker red-neck about it. You will have to work on your manners a bit more to pass yourself off as someone better than you are, although, even if you were to develop impeccable manners undoubtedly one of your other rough edges would poke through the veneer.

    There is not doubt Ross is well educated, and did a good job as an observational astronomer. None of his apologetics are respected in the scientific community. Of course, that must mean there is an atheist conspiracy. AND please do not refer to some inane survey including engineers, physicians and social scientists as members of the scientific community that deals with cosmology, astronomy, planet formation, and geology.

  61. on 08 Sep 2010 at 6:16 pm 61.Horatio said …

    60 From Buster “You will have to work on your manners a bit”

    ROTFL, Buster! You, the arrogant elitist, who spends 50% of your posts insulting the intelligence and motives of everyone you deem unworthy are lecturing me on manners? That is like Barrack lecturing GM on fiscal responsibility.

    Ross’ apologetic are not an issue in the scientific community. Since when does science have the expertise to deal in apologetics? I mean Buster, you are one of a kind. You are obviously well versed in all subject matters.

    What atheist conspiracy? Only a few of you delusional types actually rule out intelligence. Most just do not deal with it.

  62. on 08 Sep 2010 at 8:00 pm 62.3D said …

    59.Horatio said …

    Lol, I knew Nose Buster would need to address my estimate for the probability of life which was my entire purpose. Another Pavlov’s Dog if you will. Buster weren’t you one of the Cosby kids back in the 70s?
    Actually the many estimates by many sources are much higher. I believe Hugh Ross had the estimate up at 1 to 1×10^400! So, you may argue with one of the many sources out there. I was being very very conservative with my number. In reality it is impossible to come up with a very solid number due to the many assumptions and many unknowns.

    True, but in all fairness, it’s very hard to get something solid when you’re shooting diarrhea out of your ass. Yes, you might find a chunk of corn or a peanut shell from time to time, but generally speaking, it’s just liquid shit.

    Watch this: The odds of someone being as stupid as Horatio and still being able to turn on a computer are estimated at 1 to 4.3 x 10^57! But famous Christian apologetic scholar, Prof. Gregorius Schmendrick von Veeblefetzer III (Emeritus) has estimated it to be 1 to 7.9 x 10^95 bajillion! So I was being very conservative with my rough estimate. Like you, I prefer to be on the conservative side when I pull ridiculous made-up numbers out of my asshole.

    I think these numbers prove without a shadow of a doubt that God exists, and likes creating dull-brained human beings to make stupid ass posts on the internet, to try to disprove evolution by showing it going backwards.

    We only know it is impossible without intelligence.

    Kind of like you writing a post that makes sense.

  63. on 08 Sep 2010 at 8:26 pm 63.Severin said …

    59 Horatio
    “I believe Hugh Ross…”

    I knew it!
    Mr Ross sold his education, his nice look and eloqence in exposing things to money hungry church(es).
    It is probably much more profitable than DOING SOMETHING in science.
    That is why he can not be found in any list of recognized scientists.

    I carefully watched his exposee http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1680357583183645446#

    What he is doing, is trying to find gaps in which god could survive.
    Untill very recently gaps were so big that god had enough room to comfortably live in them.
    Nowdays, science expelled god in many gaps, gaps became so rare and small, that money hungry churches have to buy specialists to „sell“ ignorant and delusional people REASONS to believe in god.
    Mr. Ross even deos not negate the BB theory! He is only trying to find gaps in it to place „a supernatural force/being“ in them.

    So many gaps were „filled up“ with scientific achievments „that hold water“, that the sentence „we WILL know it in future“ has all the sense imaginable.

    As churches can not just torture/burn people any more to impose their stupidities, they have to pay „scientists“ to look for gaps in which they would be able to push their gods in.

  64. on 08 Sep 2010 at 9:36 pm 64.A Romatic said …

    3D,

    Your estimates are about as significant as, well, that monkey. Stick to eating your nanners. The fact you think anyone is trying to disprove evolution shows how out of touch and lacking you are in the arena of ideas. Evolution and origins is exactly why most of us believe in a sustainer and creator. Um, never mind back to your nanners.

    Ross is just one of many scientist over the years who has attempted to project the mathematical probability of creation occurring without the intervention of an omnipotent being. The number is always astronomical but of course he must be a bad scientist since he dare question atheism.

    Ross sold his education? What a stupid reflection. I will speculate Ross can run rings around you in the arena of ideas.

  65. on 13 Sep 2010 at 7:05 am 65.Anonymous said …

    There was this man who didn’t believe in God, until he met him in person.You will one day.

  66. on 14 Sep 2010 at 2:17 am 66.3D said …

    65.Anonymous said …
    There was this man who didn’t believe in God, until he met him in person.You will one day.

    There was a man who didn’t believe in Zeus, till he met him in person and got a lightning bolt up his rectum.

    You better hope you’re gambling on the right God! Because if you’re wrong, the right one is gonna be PISSED.

  67. on 21 Sep 2010 at 4:03 pm 67.krIs said …

    Since I cannot play the piano, I do not believe in mice, either. If I said that I could play the piano, then mice would necessarily exist?

    In the end, the only proof that I exist is this comment, to a very interesting yet pointless thread if the desire is to arrive at the correct solution to some question.

    For the record, I am not god, but I do find the Bible to exist, a fact that I admit cannot prove if there are or are not mice in my piano.

    So, I think that the best experiment that I might suggest is that all those who want to seek an answer to the question of the utility of prayer might start their investigation by praying for faith first.

    If some then find faith, is that proof?
    I trust that you will share your findings, as
    I have.
    krIs

  68. on 05 Oct 2010 at 9:11 pm 68.Mike said …

    I watched your video on the milk jug and prayer. I found it disheartening for a single reason: It begins the discussion by begging the question. Your whole mile jug illusion video BEGINS with the assumption that prayer does not work, nor is real, nor is valid.

    With that beginning assumption your attempting to convince believers that a particular practice (prayer) is an illusion. What your demonstrating, and failing to understand, is that your exactly right. When you BEGIN with the assumption that prayer does not work EVERYTHING is going to be a coincidence, it has to be, quite frankly because nothing else fits the bill.

    What your demonstrating is that perception is a very important component in discussions of this type. What you perceive going into the discussion, is going to greatly influence the outcome of the decision. What you call “obvious” and “common sense” displays an obviously lack of exposure to people who do not agree with you. Let me guess, people in 3rd world countries should speak english and everyone knows your supposed to drive on the right side of the road?

    Your videos arrogance displays astounding ignorance of how other views of the world work. You’re still operating under the idea that truth is accessed ONLY by science and therefor ONLY reason (as defined by Western philosophy) can access “reality”. In this way, “common sense” is only common sense to those who share a common heritage and understanding. This is why your videos are ultimately not compelling. Astounding insulation to diversity and diverse ways of thinking echoes though your work.

    What you call coincidence, Christians call providence. It’s a matter of looking at a coincidence and saying: I don’t think it’s a coincidence, I find providence at work here. We COULD see it as coincidence but we CHOOSE NOT TO. You make it sound like we are INCAPABLE of understanding what a coincidence is. Get over yourself, we know the difference. Pigeon holing people for polemical purposes only works with the ignorant.

    Thanks

  69. on 06 Oct 2010 at 5:59 am 69.3D said …

    68.Mike said …

    I watched your video on the milk jug and prayer. I found it disheartening for a single reason: It begins the discussion by begging the question. Your whole mile jug illusion video BEGINS with the assumption that prayer does not work, nor is real, nor is valid.

    No, it doesn’t, at all. In fact, it takes a very neutral position to start with.

    It starts with the question, what would happen if we prayed to the jug of milk? In terms of what we can observe in the physical world. And the answer, as you will probably agree, is the same exact thing as what happens if you pray to God.

    Now, you have a supernatural explanation for why God exists DESPITE this above mentioned problem, but the same video deals with those too.

    What your demonstrating is that perception is a very important component in discussions of this type. What you perceive going into the discussion, is going to greatly influence the outcome of the decision. What you call “obvious” and “common sense” displays an obviously lack of exposure to people who do not agree with you.

    No, common sense applies to everyone. That’s why it’s called common sense. Your common sense would tell you, I’m sure, that praying to the milk jug would give you the same physical results as praying to God. You’re comfortable dismissing the milk jug as an irrelevant object of prayer because of this; but you’re conditioned to explain away those results, or lack thereof, with a series of rationalizations in the case of God. This is not because you have some deeper understanding of the universe; it’s because you’re conditioned to ignore your common sense by your religion.

    Let me guess, people in 3rd world countries should speak english and everyone knows your supposed to drive on the right side of the road?

    What does that have to do with anything?

    Your videos arrogance displays astounding ignorance of how other views of the world work. You’re still operating under the idea that truth is accessed ONLY by science and therefor ONLY reason (as defined by Western philosophy) can access “reality”. In this way, “common sense” is only common sense to those who share a common heritage and understanding. This is why your videos are ultimately not compelling. Astounding insulation to diversity and diverse ways of thinking echoes though your work.
    What you call coincidence, Christians call providence. It’s a matter of looking at a coincidence and saying: I don’t think it’s a coincidence, I find providence at work here. We COULD see it as coincidence but we CHOOSE NOT TO.

    CHOOSING NOT TO accept reality doesn’t change reality. You can CHOOSE NOT TO believe that 2 + 2 = 4, but that’s what it is. You can stand on your head and recite the Lord’s Prayer while drinking holy water and it will still be 4.

    You make it sound like we are INCAPABLE of understanding what a coincidence is. Get over yourself, we know the difference. Pigeon holing people for polemical purposes only works with the ignorant.

    I don’t think the video was aimed at stupid people. It was aimed at Christians who are intelligent, but encumbered by the delusions of their religion drilled into them since birth through no fault of their own. Sometimes it helps to see things spelled out step by step.

  70. on 06 Oct 2010 at 11:55 am 70.Xenon said …

    Mike

    You are absolutely correct. A step further Jesus stated “you shall not test the Lord your God” therefore such a test only proves God’s own words. Atheist so often proves God’s words unknowingly.

  71. on 06 Oct 2010 at 4:50 pm 71.3D said …

    70.Xenon said …

    Mike
    You are absolutely correct. A step further Jesus stated “you shall not test the Lord your God” therefore such a test only proves God’s own words. Atheist (sic) so often proves (sic) God’s words unknowingly.

    Unlike many of your other posts here, at least this is honest. Here, you admit that you don’t care about logic, reason, or understanding about anything, and any attempts to test your beliefs against the observable universe are a bad thing.

    This is a much better approach, IMO, than your lame attempts to try to make cuckoo Creationist ideology square with accepted science. When you do that, you wind up having to go down weirdo streets like ‘incest is OK’ and ‘dinosaurs chased men around the jungle’ and ‘fossils are a test of our faith by God’.

    Of course, it’s still retarded; if God is real he should welcome tests to see if he exists. Only a dyed-in-the-wool sucker would fall for the con game of ‘I have magical powers, and if you try to test me to see if I have magical powers, I will smite you.’ So you’re still a gullible doofus, but at least you’re taking a more honest approach now.

  72. on 06 Oct 2010 at 5:28 pm 72.Horatio said …

    It appears all 3D now has is verbal diarrhea.
    3D, all you have is childish names and insults. Why don’t you come back to the big boy table when you have something like, um I dunno, like a genuine argument. Go back to your universe with no beginning and attempt to conjure up a clue.

    Wait, conjure implies witchcraft. Make that always existed clue.

  73. on 08 Oct 2010 at 5:43 am 73.3D said …

    72.Horatio said …

    It appears all 3D now has is verbal diarrhea.
    3D, all you have is childish names and insults. Why don’t you come back to the big boy table when you have something like, um I dunno, like a genuine argument. Go back to your universe with no beginning and attempt to conjure up a clue.
    Wait, conjure implies witchcraft. Make that always existed clue.

    My comment contained content plus insults. Yours contained just insults. Doofus, heal thyself.

  74. on 19 Oct 2010 at 8:29 pm 74.Kel said …

    12.5 Billion years is time enough for random chance to have repeated random patterns into systems, single systems into interconnected sytems, interconnected sytems into whole ecologies.

    Why is it so hard for the creationists to see that when basic elements are exposed to other basic elements that they chemically interact with each other and bond into various compounds…some of which become the basis for amino acids and enzymes.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-organization

    The universe is repleat with self organizational systems some of which became biological. Prototypes are the name of the game. millions or billions are produced most fail because of an inability to cope with a current environment and thousands do cope and are thus ‘fit’ due to adaptibility and will remain adaptible as long as environmental changes do not outpace the organizms ability.

  75. on 27 Nov 2010 at 8:48 pm 75.just a thought said …

    wow, attacks on all sides! I am not sure how they benefit the conversation. perhaps, pursuing one arguement at a time with the pros and cons might allow for more of a fruitful conversation. Just an observation.

    Now someone go ahead and mock me too.

  76. on 05 Dec 2010 at 4:26 am 76.Jesus of Fairy Land said …

    Unfortunately, a debate between science and reason vs religeon takes place on two different levels. One is logical, the other is emotional.

    Ultimately it boils down to “Look, there’s no evidence whatsoever for your beliefs” vs “We don’t need evidence, we have faith”.

    Those outside the circle can’t understand how anyone could possibly believe what it is that is being preached. Inside the circle, it’s a matter of pride to hold on to those beliefs despite evidence to the contrary. Also, remember, cults regularly redefine terms in order to demonize outsiders and prepare their followers with thought-stopping responses.

    A hallmark of cults is that the members are convinced that the only “truth” is that that is offered from within. Everything else is suspect. Again, this offers an easily erected mental wall with which to head off cognitive dissonance.

    Additionally, cult members quickly “learn” that they cannot function without the group. Many Christians, for example, are unable to face the world with the support structure of their faith. That’s no different from anyone else in a cult or, in fact, a drug addict. This programming takes place on an emotional level and is very, very, hard to overcome.

    Think about the difficulty you’d face with convincing a drug-addicted friend to seek help. Then add in the compounding factors of how it would be if their pusher was also a charismatic cult leader. That’s nothing compared to the difficulty to rescuing someone who has been addicted and programmed from birth to believe that their “family” was looking out for them.

    Simply put. A religious person will simply discard any non-conforming facts. Logic doesn’t work in their world. If it did, they’d have exited the cult a long time ago.

  77. on 15 Jan 2011 at 8:37 pm 77.Asuni said …

    Does god exists? If we can define god, then it does exist. God is the almighty being that created everything in the universe. That is what people who believe in it says The big bang is the beginning of everything, that is what the scientists say. If we define god as the one who created everthing, then wouldn’t it be the big bang itself in a way?

    In short, it really comes down to what humans want to define. The dreams and ambition that we all have, they can’t be proven to exist physically, but we know they do, because they influence our lives. It doesn’t matter what god or gods people define, as long as it influence peoples lives, it exists be it imaginary or real.

    I personally deny god, because I do not want a random factor like that to control my life. But does it exist? It still influence people around me who believes in it and does influence my life indirectly. So it exists right? If it doesn’t, how do we explain the actions caused by the belief in it?

    God created humans, but humans also created god, because humans gave the definition to god itself. The existence of god is equivalent to the existance of thoughts and ideas in our mind.

    This idea would of course seem to differ from what the different religion around the world would describe their gods as, but it is THEIR definition of god. Be it whether the god was given birth by truthful belief that was derived by their experiences, the need of mental support from their helplessness or even ulterior motives that require such an entity.

    I am not tryin to confuse anyone here, just trying to voice my opinion here as a food for thought for those who don’t regard it as nonsense.

  78. on 24 Mar 2011 at 3:51 pm 78.TheRealGeno said …

    John said,

    “The only way you can say there is no evidence is if you dismiss the evidence out of hand first. I’m not saying that there is enough evidence to prove anything, but there are a number of intriguing studies in a many areas that indicate to me that perhaps there are phenomena at work beyond what we’re typically open to considering, and maybe we should consider them.”

    John, you are a victim of your own confirmation bias. When there is no evidence, you can confidently make that claim. It would be different if Sister Chromatid wrote, “There will *never be* any evidence discovered…” But in this case, Sister Chromatid is correct. There is no evidence. Your own words: “intriguing studies and indicat[ions].”

    Intriguing studies and indications do not pass a sniff test as evidence.

    We all would like to believe in the impossible. Wish-thinking is comforting, e.g., people buying lottery tickets. A subversion of the known laws of nature is a fascinating proposition.

    But we study these things using tools and methods we have at our disposal. We cannot simply accept that something is possible or tangible just because it would be a wonderful and lovely thing. This is delusional thinking in its classic form.

    That something *might* be possible, or tangible, though, is entirely different. And this is what scientific method endeavors to do. Until there is evidence to the contrary, I will leave wish-thinking to those that carry rabbits’ feet.

  79. on 31 Mar 2011 at 8:35 pm 79.Diane said …

    If you don’t beleive there is a God, why are you wasting your time trying to convince others. Because if there is no God then NOTHING else matters…

  80. on 11 Apr 2011 at 1:56 am 80.Kenn Duncan said …

    Your Wish Is Your Command is a course sold by Kevin Trudeau. No one can say that he is not a compelling salesman and his infomercials hawking various products are legendary. This latest product targets the natural desire for wealth that most people obsess about while also pushing conspiracy theories that blame “secret societies” for keeping the secret of wealth and prosperity from the masses.Your Wish Is Your Command

  81. on 13 Apr 2011 at 3:42 pm 81.Rat said …

    Xenon says: “… Jesus stated “you shall not test the Lord your God” therefore such a test only proves God’s own words. Atheist so often proves God’s words unknowingly.”

    Yahweh was quite willing to be tested in 1 Kings 18. In fact he seemed to delight in showing off for the crowd. And in the ensuing massacre.

    Did he change his mind?

    ‘For I am the Lord, I change not.’ Malachi 3:6

    As far as I can see, we’ve got three options:
    1) Jesus is a liar, testing God is okay.
    2) God is a liar, he changes.
    3) 1 Kings 18 is a lie, God never approved of being tested.

    Are there any ways to reconcile the three claims?

    Well, we can try paying close attention to Jesus’ phrasing: we ‘shall not’ test God, not ‘can not’. i.e. it is not impossible, it is forbidden. So God will pass our tests, but punish us for testing him. Unfortunately for this interpretation, there is no implication that Elijah was in the wrong in 1 Kings 18, and God persistently fails even the simplest of tests. And then fails to punish those responsible for testing him, as far as we can see. And no, I won’t be convinced by any claim that the punishment is in the afterlife. If we’ve seen God fail the Biblically approved 1 Kings 18 test, then we’re going to disbelieve and be sent to hell anyway. Additional punishment becomes meaningless (what, after the first eternal damnation we get a second eternal damnation? what’s two times infinity?).

    So we’re left disbelieving either Jesus, God or whoever wrote 1 Kings.

    Or all three.

    Atheist so often proves God’s words knowingly false.

  82. on 13 Apr 2011 at 4:31 pm 82.DPK said …

    “Because if there is no God then NOTHING else matters…”

    What a sad, tragic outlook on life. Being born a sentient being is like winning the cosmic lottery… and you think it doesn’t matter because you want.. MORE?
    Having one life isn’t enough, you want to be eternal?
    I feel so sorry for you.

  83. on 13 Apr 2011 at 4:32 pm 83.johnnie rotten said …

    I come from a Scientific background and I am a Christian. I was a dual major in chemistry and anthropology with a minor in physics. (And please do not ask me about any theory as it has been years since I was in college and I went a completely different way since then.)

    The one thing that I do know is that science is good at figuring the out how things in place work. I also know that science can not always fix what is wrong.

    Scientists should not play GOD with the future of mankind.

    So Rat, perhaps when scientist try to clone animals or people and try to be creators in their own right, that is what is referred to as a test.

  84. on 13 Apr 2011 at 4:45 pm 84.DPK said …

    “Scientists should not play GOD with the future of mankind.”

    Really? Let’s look at where we would be right now, as a species, if the church had had it’s way, and science had not dragged them, kicking and screaming, into the what we now think of as common knowledge.

    We would believe that the earth was the center of the universe, flat and held up by “firmaments” and that the heavens were a crystalline structure where the stars moved about by the hand of god.
    Kiss goodbye everything we know about geology, earth science, satellite and space travel, the laws of planetary motion, nuclear physics and chemistry. You would be communicating with me right now by writing on parchment, because all of the technology derived from the space program and other scientific research would not have happened. Instead of studying chemistry in college, your degree may well have been in alchemy. Anthropology? what’s that? Man was created in his current form 6 thousand years ago and all his laws and behaviors came from god.
    We would be exorcising the mentally ill, and burning witches at the stake. We would be either imprisoning or executing heretics, or anyone who spoke against dogma. There would be no biology, and medicine would consist of prayers and fasting.
    They called the time when churches ruled the world the Dark Ages for a reason…. you really want GOD to determine the future of mankind instead of science?? He hasn’t got a very good track record.

  85. on 13 Apr 2011 at 5:17 pm 85.Lou said …

    83.johnnie rotten said …

    “I come from a Scientific background…

    So Rat, perhaps when scientist try to clone animals or people and try to be creators in their own right, that is what is referred to as a test.”

    So much for your claim that you “come from a Scientific background.”

  86. on 13 Apr 2011 at 5:19 pm 86.johnnie rotten said …

    Apparently you do not like me Lou….

    That’s ok

  87. on 20 Apr 2011 at 7:03 am 87.Samothec said …

    79. Diane said …

    “If you don’t beleive there is a God, why are you wasting your time trying to convince others. Because if there is no God then NOTHING else matters…”

    Because atheists realize that believers are wasting their time, money and energy on delusion and the human race could do and be so much more if the delusions were gone. If there is no God then people matter. I believe that our purpose in life is to make life fair for each other.

    For me it started with not calling myself Christian anymore because of the vile way too many of them acted. I read a number of books, including the Bible and was gradually able to understand why we have superstitions and how those develop into cults and then religions. Eventually I was able to purge myself of the God virus and feel much better.

    Life is more precious to us atheists than Xians because we know there is nothing else – this is not a test run leading up to eternal life – this is everyone’s only life.

  88. on 20 Apr 2011 at 2:17 pm 88.Lou said …

    87.Samothec said …

    “Life is more precious to us atheists than Xians because we know there is nothing else – this is not a test run leading up to eternal life – this is everyone’s only life.”

    And as such, it’s not any more or less “precious” than it is to any other group. Life simply “is.” It’s neither precious nor worthless.

  89. on 20 Apr 2011 at 7:27 pm 89.Samothec said …

    88.Lou said …

    in reply to my post @ 87.

    “And as such, it’s not any more or less “precious” than it is to any other group. Life simply “is.” It’s neither precious nor worthless.”

    True – that was projection and hope on my part. In spite of everything (namely reality), there is still a part of me that is a hopeful romantic.

  90. on 22 Apr 2011 at 7:40 am 90.mediator said …

    all cursing and fighting aside, either life is still a life worth living. With religion you have bias, yes, however you appreciate life and live it to the greatest extent to one day hope to find yourself in “Gods hands”. with athiesm you have people who figure to have one shot at life. exploration and answers are what satisfy them. All will still be loving and full of adventure. However religion comes with a sense of close-mindedness. non believers just want answers and adventure. what fun is life if you’re consistantly being controlled like a lab rat. life becomes more valuable knowing you only have 75 or so years full of limitless oppurtunities. The idea of a binding contract with a creator through life is like slavery itsself. For the answer and proof will not come in this generation, nor many. this is simply a grain of sand in the Sahara. We know nothing,never the less as history has taught us knowledge comes with trial and error.

  91. on 22 Apr 2011 at 11:23 am 91.Biff said …

    “Because atheists realize that believers are wasting their time, money and energy on delusion and the human race could do and be so much more if the delusions were gone.”

    I thought atheism was just lack of belief? If this is true how do they know believers are wasting their life??????

  92. on 22 Apr 2011 at 1:25 pm 92.Joe said …

    I would be careful with the general statement that all believers are wasting their time. There are some people, after all, who get some comfort out of religion. Nevertheless, I would say from my own experience of 9-years of being a re-born evangelical Christian that I wasted a great deal of time during these 9 years. Those things that I learned during this time (yes, there are some things you can learn in church) – I could have learned them in a much shorter time by reading books better than the Bible. So I would say I wasted too much time on reading the Bible. Also, I wasted too much time on prayer and worship. Finally, I wasted too much time on church activities that were meant to spread the good news of the gospel and to advance the cause of the kingdom of God. Giving practical help to poor people would have been a much better way of using my time.

    So, Biff, as you asked the question, you do not need a particular belief to say you wasted time on something. Common sense is enough for making such a statement. Consider another example: let’s assume you have been waiting for a bus for half an hour, a bus that is long overdue. Eventually you have to take a cab. You do not need a belief to make a statement such as “What a waste of time. Had I know the bus wouldn’t come, I’d have taken the cab half an hour earlier.”

    Looking back on my own life so far, this bus that didn’t come is all these promises that the Bible makes to the believer. I shouldn’t have waited for 9 years. I should have taken the cab right from the start. This would have been more expensive (because it’s easier to just believe what people tell you than making up your own mind), but I’d have arrived way earlier.

  93. on 22 Apr 2011 at 1:58 pm 93.Biff said …

    Joe,

    My bus came long ago. Sorry you missed it. Every promise made by Christ has been faithfully fulfilled. It has been 30 years for me.

    This cab you have taken. I hope it turns out to be all you think it will be.

  94. on 22 Apr 2011 at 8:53 pm 94.Anti-Theist said …

    What promises were fulfilled?

  95. on 23 Apr 2011 at 4:09 am 95.mediator said …

    the promises are what? a healthy life, family, and friends? a good job and home? these were not given to you by God. You did this yourself. billions of ppl live healthy lives that are not christain. Thank God, whatever the definition may be, that you got a shot at life. everything else is your own doing. congratulate yourself for these achievments. you know what time the bus leaves and where it will go. just like the cab. YOU decided to have the bus take you to were YOU wanted to go, not the other way around. The bus is nothing but a journey to were you decide, like the cab. however with the cab you can control what happens through the trip and where you stop. in the end you both reach the destination, it’s just one is filled with more adventure.

  96. on 23 Apr 2011 at 11:52 am 96.Biff said …

    Mediator

    You are no familiar with the promises are you?

    I was delivered from alcoholism, drug addiction and hatred. I have been given love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness and self-control. More importantly I have been given a relationship with my maker, freedom from guilt, a love for people and forgiveness of sin. He is the best thing to happen to me and if there was no promise of heaven I would still follow him.

    I took the cab and it was leading to loneliness and an early death. It was not going to the same place as you seem to predict.

  97. on 23 Apr 2011 at 2:33 pm 97.DPK said …

    Biff,

    I hope you are not so narrow visioned as to believe that people cannot have all that without Jesus. Newsflash, Mediator is right. You did those things yourself, and good for you. There are many people who overcome addictions without religious faith, and there are also many with religious faith who fail in conquering addictions. Not to mention, there are many many others of different faiths than yours who will tell you that THEY had these promises fulfilled by a god who is in opposition to your god. They will tell you you are following a false god and will be condemned for it.

    What would you say to those people?

  98. on 23 Apr 2011 at 7:07 pm 98.Severin said …

    96 Biff
    - Many people (as DPK said) got the same you got, but believing in another god
    - Many Christians did not get anything, no matter how sincerely they believed in god and how much they prayed, and are very unhappy in their lives
    - Many atheist got all, or almost all they need in thir lives, and are living merrily
    -Many atheists are unhappy in their lives

    Are there gods?
    If thre are some, what are they doing?
    Who needs them, if good and bad is equally distributed among Muslims, Christians, atheists…anyway?
    Or, maybe (I would say: for sure) YOU were the one who did everything for yourself.
    If you lived in same conditions, and had the same character you have, but was a muslim (or atheist), the consequences would be the same: YOU would win! It is YOU!

    One thing you can NOT win ever: eternal life.
    There is no such thing.

  99. on 23 Apr 2011 at 7:48 pm 99.Biff said …

    “What would you say to those people?”

    I don’t know. I might tell them they are wrong and they did it themselves. Sort of like you and mediator have done. Then again that is awfully presumptuous and I tend not to go that route.

    I don’t interpret others lives for them. I tell them what Jesus did for me. Jesus saves individuals not me. If Jesus is working in them, sharing my faith is enough. Nobody can be talked into accepting Christ. Unless Jesus draws them, they cannot be saved.

  100. on 23 Apr 2011 at 8:06 pm 100.DPK said …

    And that’s rather mean of Jesus, isn’t it now? Why does he draw some, and not others? Indeed, why does he not draw fully 2/3rds of the world, condemning them to eternal damnation? Not very Christ like, is it?

    I saw in the paper today a story about the Pope going on TV and answering direct questions from people. Of course, he wasn’t brave enough to do this in person, or even live… he screened the questions and picked 7 to pre-record an answer to from his opulent office in the Vatican.
    One question was from a 7 year old Japanese girl who wanted to know, from “the man who talks to god” why she had to be so afraid and why the people in Japan had to suffer so. She said many of her friends were killed in the earthquake, and she was afraid every time her house shook that she would be killed to.
    The Pope answered something to the effect that he wondered about that too. Why some people have to suffer and some get to live in comfort (speaking from his throne in the Vatican!). He didn’t know, but he told the girl that Jesus suffered too.
    WTF! That reminds me of that TV commercial where the guy says his girlfriend, “I just got a text message from you that you’re breaking up with me!?” She says, “Don’t worry about that! I don’t pay extra for text messages.”
    So that’s god’s answer? Don’t worry about innocent children who endure fear and suffering and death. Jesus suffered too.
    I’m sorry Biff. I don’t mean to sound insulting to you personally, but your god is an asshole.
    Just sayin’.
    D

  101. on 23 Apr 2011 at 9:47 pm 101.Biff said …

    DPK

    You don’t insult me. I feel for you. It is sort of like a subatomic particle calling the sun such a name. It is really pretty foolish.

    I have some idea why people are suffering such as Job and Jesus but I don’t understand it all. I know he has called man to look after one another and we do a pretty sorry job. I know men turn their back on God and wonder why things go badly.

    One of his promises was that we would suffer in this life. Death, disease and evil are part of this life. Jesus promised it would be but only for a short time.

    I also know He has promised to return one day and then all things will be restored. I know what He has done in my life. If you desire to flail names at Him it is certainly your prerogative.

  102. on 23 Apr 2011 at 10:04 pm 102.Samothec said …

    91.Biff said …

    in reply to me:
    “I thought atheism was just lack of belief? If this is true how do they know believers are wasting their life??????”

    An atheist is a person who does not (a-) believe in god (-theist).

    As for your second question: the atheists I have met have been more intelligent and considerate than the theists. Like me many have tried to be helpful to theists in spite of the believers’ own attitudes and behavior. I was generalizing – which I suppose I shouldn’t have – but it was a favorable generalization.

  103. on 24 Apr 2011 at 2:08 am 103.Lou said …

    101.Biff said …

    “It is sort of like a subatomic particle calling the sun such a name. It is really pretty foolish.”

    As is your analogy.

  104. on 24 Apr 2011 at 2:26 pm 104.Mitch said …

    Biff,

    A great testimony; I constantly marvel how atheist claim they “lack belief” but when one shares their personal experience they are predisposed to deduce what “really” happened to them. The hauteur is truly astounding. They don’t “lack belief” they suppose they recognize the answer to the inquiry of God and they aspire to answer the question for all beings.

  105. on 24 Apr 2011 at 2:37 pm 105.Boris said …

    Biff said, “I have some idea why people are suffering such as Job and Jesus but I don’t understand it all.”

    The story of Job is really about not questioning authority, no matter how outrageous that authority might behave. Similarly, when Abraham takes his son to give him as a sacrifice to God, the message is “do what your told no matter how insane it might seem” That sounds like the kind of message a typical tyrant would like to deliver to his subjects, not like an uplifting message from a loving God. These are messages designed by men to enhance their own authority, not messages from God. These are stories made up by men to intimidate other men into following them blindly.

  106. on 24 Apr 2011 at 5:26 pm 106.Anonymous said …

    “when one shares their personal experience they are predisposed to deduce what “really” happened to them.”

    It’s simply a matter of “when you hear hoof beats, think horses, not unicorns.”

    Seriously, if your neighbor came to you and told you someone broke into his house, you would suspect burglars. But what if he told you he was absolutely positive it was invisible space aliens from the Andromeda galaxy and they broke in in order to implant secret mind control devices in his kitchen appliances. Would you just accept that at his word because it is his personal belief?
    I’d actually encourage him to get some help.

  107. on 24 Apr 2011 at 7:18 pm 107.Burebista said …

    “I’d actually encourage him to get some help.”

    Unfortunately for A, he has set himself up with horrible analogies. How many of A’s examples are claimed by individuals? I know of none.

    Let examine Biff’s. They are literally millions upon millions who make the claim Christ changes there lives. Let’s look at history. Literally millions upon millions who make the same claim. Using basic deduction one would deduce there must be validity to the claims

    So who needs help? It seems A might might just need the help. He feels someone who is obviously happy and feels he has been rescued from a life of catastrophe needs help.

    When you hear hoof beats do not continue to claim horses do not exist!

  108. on 24 Apr 2011 at 7:58 pm 108.Observer said …

    107 #burbista Pray tell, what is “basic deduction” when dealing with metaphysics?

    Billions believe that Krishna changes their lives, and for the better to boot! So what?

    You are a f*cking idiot.

  109. on 24 Apr 2011 at 8:24 pm 109.Ben said …

    Actually it is only a billion, not billion(s) as O would prescribe.

    It is a plurality of religious phenomena based on works. Adherents are not changed but are working toward a particular goal.

    A nice testimony there Biff. PTL.

  110. on 24 Apr 2011 at 9:58 pm 110.Observer said …

    109 “Actually it is only a billion, not billion(s) as O would prescribe.” What is “O” and what is he prescribing? And why the (s) idiocy? Aping the more educated again?

    OK. Score one on the billions. Lose five on the poor English skills.

    Does “PTL” stand for “Pathetic Theist Loser”?

  111. on 24 Apr 2011 at 10:07 pm 111.Observer said …

    109 Really. What are you trying to say? A plurality of religious phenomena based on works? What does that mean?

    I apologize (weakly) for the vitriol in the previous post. The “A nice testimony there Biff.” may have thrown me off a bit. Are you mocking him? What does PTL mean? I have a limited repertoire of texting shorthand. I do know such jewels as ESND and WTF.

  112. on 25 Apr 2011 at 2:11 am 112.mediator said …

    well said boris. i myself am an agnostic atheist. For some it’s not that they insult God, they insult the men who have created him. racist, sexist, greedy men can not be trusted. i will not listen to the word from men, only from the word of God. if there be one. At one time men thought that a God answered their prayers by providing rain for their crop, only to realize in the future it is nature at work. I accept what i know, like the dirt under my feet and the beauty of the world. i don’t need faith or God to answer my prayers. I have been given the greatest oppurtunity ever, life. I find beauty in this earth, and earth only. i do not wish to pay attention to the aftermath. for it will come soon enough and i’d rather not spend my time debating the chance and getting my hopes up of an afterlife. i eat, sleep, walk, and love like everyother human. i do not need anything else. i have found my happiness, without the aid of “God”.

  113. on 25 Apr 2011 at 2:51 pm 113.DPK said …

    “Let’s look at history. Literally millions upon millions who make the same claim. Using basic deduction one would deduce there must be validity to the claims ”

    Really? I thought we thoroughly trounced this completely FALSE argument long ago. Do we need to revisit it once again for you Burebista?

    Truth by democracy.. the idea that a large number of people hold a certain belief, therefore it must be true:
    Let’s review:
    Ancient Greek and Roman gods. All believed by millions of people. All completely imaginary, as are countless hundreds of other gods throughout history… ALL believed by huge numbers of people… ALL COMPLETELY IMAGINARY.

    Flat Earth and the belief in a heliocentric universe. Universally believed. Completely utterly wrong.
    Alchemy, Astrology, witchcraft, demonic possession, voodoo, etc… all ideas once held as truth by large numbers of people, all completely false.

    Lastly, if you still insist that the number of people who hold a particular belief bears any meaning whatsoever on the truth of that particular belief, please explain the fact that 2/3′s of the world population does not believe in Jesus as the son of god. So if that continues to be your assertion, why haven’t you abandoned your minority belief for one that is more “likely” to be true?
    D

  114. on 25 Apr 2011 at 5:27 pm 114.Lou said …

    107.Burebista said …

    “Let examine Biff’s. They are literally millions upon millions who make the claim Christ changes there lives. Let’s look at history. Literally millions upon millions who make the same claim. Using basic deduction one would deduce there must be validity to the claims.”

    Let’s examine the “examine” this and other similar comments that you posted here. Using basic deduction, one would deduce that you’re a moron.

    Any of you who try to reason with Burebista are wasting your time because he obviously has a mental disability.

  115. on 25 Apr 2011 at 9:56 pm 115.Xenon said …

    Gravity – believed by millions still true

    Sun- Believed in by millions still true

    Voltage – Believed in by millions still true.

    Lou, try again buddy.

    Ben,

    Good catch

    Burebista.

    Good argument! Still have them scrambling!

  116. on 25 Apr 2011 at 10:39 pm 116.Anonymous said …

    You’re an idiot.
    Gravity… can be demonstrated and tested.
    Although religious idiots think that thing fall because “god is pushing them down”
    http://www.theonion.com/articles/evangelical-scientists-refute-gravity-with-new-int,1778/
    Sun… can be demonstrated and tested. Although many many religions asserted that the sun was a god and worshiped it.
    Electricity… can be demonstrated and tested.
    Although lightening was often thought of as being god’s wrath. Thor, another imaginary god, used to hurl lightening bolts around.

    So demonstrate god’s existence to me in a form I can see and test. Oh, you can’t.

    Burabiesta, hate to tell you, getting a pat on the back from Xenon is not something you should be proud of.

  117. on 26 Apr 2011 at 6:02 am 117.Severin said …

    115 Xenon

    Flat earth, believing by millions, still true
    Ra believing by millions, still true.
    Zeus, Qetzalcoatl, ….believing by millions, still true.

    Allah MUST be true! Some billion people, TODAY, believes he changed their lives!

    Good argument!
    The more idiots on earth, believing bullshits, the truer the bullshits!

  118. on 26 Apr 2011 at 1:56 pm 118.Lou said …

    115.Xenon said …

    “Gravity – believed by millions still true

    Sun- Believed in by millions still true

    Voltage – Believed in by millions still true.”

    NONE of those things you mentioned are deductions.

    “Lou, try again buddy.”

    To again demonstrate you’re idiots? Don’t need to, you just did it for me.

    You, like Burebista, are a moron.

    “Good argument! Still have them scrambling!”

    We’re not scrambling, but your brains are.

    It’s hard to believe that man walked on the moon move than forty years ago, and there are still people on this planet who think like some of you.

  119. on 26 Apr 2011 at 3:59 pm 119.Xenon said …

    man walked on the moon – millions believe it

    Thanks Lou, there is another one to put to rest your argument.

  120. on 26 Apr 2011 at 4:24 pm 120.Lou said …

    119.Xenon said …

    “man walked on the moon – millions believe it

    Thanks Lou, there is another one to put to rest your argument.”

    Like Xenon is, (to quote another poster) “There is an element in our culture that is proudly, aggressively ignorant.”

    I must take my own advice and stop trying to reason with them.

  121. on 26 Apr 2011 at 6:06 pm 121.Mac said …

    Lou doesn’t react well when his own examples are thrown back at him to prove Lou to be a bed of fallacies.

    Lou incorrectly attempts to assert that Burebista is using the fallacy of argumentum ad populum. He obviously does not make this claim but Lou, ever the opportunist attempts to make this an issue.

    Burebista simply make a point when multiple millions of individuals claim an experience it cannot be blown off as a delusion.

    If a small group of individuals do not experience love but millions and millions of others do experience love who is likely correct? Can science break the gridlock? Something to think about.

    Lou, grow up son. You come across as such a putz.

  122. on 26 Apr 2011 at 6:39 pm 122.DPK said …

    “Burebista simply make a point when multiple millions of individuals claim an experience it cannot be blown off as a delusion.”

    No one here has “blown it off” as a delusion. They have considered the evidence and proof for it, and rationally decided to dismiss it as a delusion.

    No different than scientists who considered the mass belief of a flat earth and heliocentric universe. The looked at the belief, held by virtually everyone, including being declared as church dogma for which they would happily burn you to death for disagreeing with, in light of the observable evidence determined that the belief of “millions of people” was in fact, wrong.
    Sorry Mac. Your argument ignore the simple FACT that truth is not democratic. It is not determined by popular vote.

  123. on 26 Apr 2011 at 7:27 pm 123.Lou said …

    121.Mac said …

    “Lou incorrectly attempts to assert that Burebista is using the fallacy of argumentum ad populum. He obviously does not make this claim but Lou, ever the opportunist attempts to make this an issue.”

    107.Burebista said …

    “They are literally millions upon millions who make the claim Christ changes there lives. Let’s look at history. Literally millions upon millions who make the same claim. Using basic deduction one would deduce there must be validity to the claims.”

    He obviously did use an argumentum ad populum – an argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or all people believe it – “there must be validity,” not “it cannot be blown off as a delusion” as you paraphrased his comment.

    In the context of his statement, validity means truth. However, if it means truth, then of course it “cannot be blown off as a delusion.” You are making a unwarranted argument about what I wrote.

  124. on 21 Jul 2011 at 4:08 pm 124.A Free Mind said …

    Following on from some of the earlier comments which I don’t feel were properly addressed – the argument of creationists whereby they state (rather mockingly) that atheists believe “that complex organisms arose by pure chance over time”. Read any book on evolution, and you will not find this phrase anywhere.

    What you WILL find, is that for a billion individuals in an ecosystem, random changes will occur in a few of them (caused by a recombination of genes in the gene pool [sexual reproduction] or by otherwise random mutations [like in asexual bacteria] that may or may not benefit their ability to survive in their ecosystem.

    The mutations that increase the survivability (or ability to reproduce, etc) of the individual animal/bacteria/plant etc will result in the survival of those genes, which are therefore more likely to pass into the decendants of those survivors than the genes of other individuals of the species.

    While rest of the population may survive just fine as it is without this beneficial recombination of genes, these individuals they will not be able (ON AVERAGE – this is the key point by the way, remember we are dealing with millions on individuals here) to pass on as many of their genes as those of the AVERAGE individuals who have ‘mutated’ (for want of a better word).

    The result is that ON AVERAGE, those life forms with a better combination of genes survive to breeding age better than the others in their species, and can pass on the altered genetic code. Eventually, with enough time, this new lineage will evolve into a clearly seperate species, as these and many other small incremental changes toward an improvement in survivability at the gene level are repeated over millions of years.

    By the way, you may be wondering how ‘shuffling’ the genes in a creatures body through sexual reproduction (e.g. by getting half of your mum’s genes and half of your dad’s) can result in change. This happens because a gene doesn’t control any one part of the body or mind – there is no ‘arm-length gene’ or ‘gay gene’. What there IS, is several genes that compliment each other to make a real effect in the body of the animal, like letters in the alphabet. For instance, an ‘S’ gene, a ‘T’ gene, an ‘N’ gene, and 2 ‘A’ genes can be shuffled by natural selection to add up to ‘SATAN’ or ‘SANTA’, two very different (though both fake) entities indeed. In the real world this could be the difference between “grow longer legs” or “flatten the paws into flippers”.

    No real scientist or atheist believes that “complex organisms arose by pure chance”. They (we) know by observable experimentation and DNA examination that complex life as we know it today evolved GRADUALLY as a series of tiny, unnoticable steps from the point of view of a human lifespan, but which can result in unimaginable changes over millions of years to end up with something like a whale or a human.

  125. on 21 Jul 2011 at 4:21 pm 125.A Free Mind said …

    It may be obvious, but it seems I may need to spell it out anyway, that any genetic changes that are NOT beneficial to survival or reproduction etc will have a hard time getting passed on down the generations (though they may and probably will do for a while) because of the strong level of competition from other members of the species (and predators, competing species, etc) that can out-compete them to find food or reproduce.

    In this sense, nature will ALWAYS (unless of course it is plagued by severe random bad luck, which must be virtually non-existent due to the strength of the competition facing these “genetic-defects”) produce life that seems more and more suited to whatever niche it fulfils in it’s habitat. Better “designed”, some might say – and hence the many creation stories.

    In short, the array of complex life we see around us today, filling every imaginable niche in the food chain, is exactly as we should expect if the universe were following these natural laws.

  126. on 21 Jul 2011 at 4:52 pm 126.Severin said …

    Thank you (#125) AFM!

    I am sick and tired of “microevolution” and “macroevolution” bullshits from theists who know nothing about natural laws, do not follow and do not accept any logic, and all they have to say is “goddidit”, without answering, ever, simple questions like HOW, WHEN, who/what “did” god, etc.

    You might have noticed, for example that most (if not all) of them are trying to involve “chance” to chemistry, ignoring the fact that chemistry has nothing to do with “chances”, but with natural laws, which are (in this universe, and as long ago as we can reach) pretty stable.
    No god is necessary to provide reaction between -OH and -NCO, for example, but they do not accept it, they are trumpeting “chance” all the time, although no one ever mentioned chance as condition sine qua non for appearance of life.
    All you need is a lot of chemical “brixes” and enormeously long period of time, and we had both in our past. REALLY a lot. It would be a miracle if life did not happen under given conditions, and I can not wait (and because I am pretty old, I probably will not) the moment when man will prove life on another planet or satelite (Mars, Europa…).
    They will stil trumpet “goddidit”, they will just have no answer to simple question: WHY, the hell, he did it?

    Thanks!

  127. on 21 Jul 2011 at 6:08 pm 127.Lou said …

    126.Severin said …

    “They will stil trumpet “goddidit”, they will just have no answer to simple question: WHY, the hell, he did it?”

    And why did god make everything look as if it evolved over millions or billions of years? Why would god use “micro-evolution,” but not “macro-evolution?”

  128. on 10 Aug 2011 at 9:48 am 128.assassin said …

    God does not answer prayers, because they are egoistic. if you carefully study the prayers of all religions you will notice the following:

    1.praise the lord, sort of aknowledgement for His greatenes
    2.request for favors ( since you are so great give me this give me that)

    No religion addresses God directly, asking for him not his favors.

    prayers don’t work and god doesn’t answer them because he has already given everything his own house and went himself into seclusion cause every religion forgot to invite him, or were afraid that he will take their power and dominion.

    God is hiding because we are afraid of him(her). Adam was, Moses was, Jesus was. All the prophets were busy constricting god in them only. They know God, the secret knowledge. through them you are saved. They all taught us to glorify and pray to God, but they never told us to invite Him, because they would not be important anymore. They say “come to the house of God” when in fact only men abide therein. The same with Ka’ba in Mecca, it is the house of God, but its empty. How come the houses of God are open for everyone but the One is not allowed in.

    No wonder God is not coming, why should he? No one misses Him. People are busy being his advocates, prophets, substitutes, sons and daughters, and servants, in other words his replacement. All the prophets from Adam to Muhammad claimed vicegerency.

    No one cares about God, all they care is his provisions: paradise, a life without worries, to be the chosen few, when 99 % of creatures are burning in hell.
    All they want to know is his tricks, the tree of knowledge, eternity, so they can wrestle with him and finally challenge him, but only after they have become as powerful as him.

    This is the legacy mankind has left to its sons and daughters. Slay your son for the sake of God. In fact slay your son so you can become God, remembered by all generations to come. No wonder God abandoned Adam, no wonder the Father forsake Jesus on the cross. He wanted to become God, let him bear the cross of shame for all eternity!

    They say Jesus is coming back, Mehdi is coming back. Jesus and Mohammed failed once and they are going to fail again. Hitlers and Bin Ladens are coming instead, and soon enough God himself is coming in the most wretched form because that’s what we made of him and that’s what we deserve!

    What a shame!

    O God come home ’cause we are idiots! Our hearts suffer from constipation! I’m tired of saviors. Thank god there are no more prophets! Now its Your turn, come home cause no religion and no prophet can replace You! I miss you so much. They say eyes will burn if God shows. what a sham! They are burning anyway. I am blind anyway, I don’t need my eyes if I can’t the Source! The one that invited me into existence. I’d be ashamed if I didn’t invite It too. I am waiting for none except God himself, the master of all, the source of all being the Generous!
    People are busy arguing about God who is right who is wrong and pray to God for provisions but they all forget to invite God!

    Mankind has no conscience, they even ask God to teach them how to pray to him. Well he already made you once in his own image. If you can not figure it out yourself then forget about God.

    God does not anwswer prayers. That’s why he left us in the first place so that we wont bother him with stupid requests like Adam!

  129. on 10 Aug 2011 at 11:39 am 129.Anonymous said …

    prayers don’t work and god doesn’t answer them because he has already given everything his own house and went himself into seclusion cause every religion forgot to invite him, or were afraid that he will take their power and dominion.

    Have you read all of the Bible verses where Jesus explicitly says that God will answer prayers? There is a list here:

    http://godisimaginary.com/i1.htm

    Why would Jesus say explicitly that prayers will be answered if they will not?

  130. on 10 Aug 2011 at 12:56 pm 130.assassin said …

    God is not only imaginary, god is imaginal.

    god is not a product of only rational imagination, its a gravity produced by unconscious processes of problem solving just like any other symbol you encounter in your dreams.

    god is more than god. its the principle of singularity as opposed to the multiplicity of phenomena. more like a generalizing principle.

    the revelations are full of faults not because god is fauulty but because God only revealed what was in the hearts of prophets. they had sickness so the revelations have sickness. the tablet God read from when he sent revelations where the hearts of prophets. He doesn’t impose. the prophets were so much concerned with conflict: belief vs. heresy, ingroup vs. outgroop, brothers vs. enemies truth vs. falshood. What could God do? Stop them, hell no! let them enjoy their childish games for some time, maybe they will come to their senses.

    The question is why did mankind bother God with requests for a divine law on earth, revelations, when they cast God out in the first place. so god played some jokes and parables and sent messengers who even themselves did n’t get the idea that they are vexing God like flies bzzz bzzz with their prayers when in fact all they cared about is the sweat of god, provisions and fame that they are so enlightened with their myltiple eyes like flies, and have come to us with the idea that they know the place where paradise is, where the Holy Shit is stored. What a vain lot!

    The reason people don’t see god is they are too busy treating the prophets as flawless. How can people see God as perfect when they are busy looking at Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammad (and modern prophets like Darwin and Einstein)as perfect.

    Scientists play the same tune, but now they don’t call it religion, they call it science (as if it matters).

    Now instead of religion we have scientism with all its prophet, who again make the same mistake. Vanity. So vanity is definitely our favorit sin!

  131. on 10 Aug 2011 at 1:38 pm 131.assassin said …

    The ultimate flaw of religion is sexism, its totally patriarchal. Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) treat women as inferior. what did Abraham do, he took circumsion for himself, so that his sex is organ doesn’t get any infections, while for women (who God made them open in the first place)their clitoris is cut (like its practiced widely in north Africa and the middle east), to inhibit their sexual instinct and to prohibit women from pleasure during the intercourse. Why didn’t he cut of the head of his penis to please God.

    If women are so inferior, why were prophets so busy
    screwing their brains out with their multiple wives and concubines. why was that not alawed for women. why are all the propehets male? Why Trinity consists of Father Son and Holy Spirit, when Father was not there at all. It was Mother Mary, the Holy Spirit Gabriel, and Son Jesus: the female,the transgendered, and the male. But how could christianity accept a feminist doctrine, then the Pope would have to be female.

    There is nothing on earth more satanic than organized religion! look back at history and see who and why were most of the attrocities commited: by religions to please God!

    religion is not a test of beleif, its God’s test of consciense and compassion. And all failed miserably. Adam asked for Eve and then blamed her childishly ‘she made me do it’ covering his shame with excuses, fig leaves! What a moron!

  132. on 10 Aug 2011 at 4:14 pm 132.Lou said …

    assassin,

    Are you on or off medication?

  133. on 10 Aug 2011 at 5:13 pm 133.DPK said …

    “Adam asked for Eve and then blamed her childishly ’she made me do it’ covering his shame with excuses, fig leaves! What a moron!”

    I nearly spit coffee all over my computer screen.
    What a moron indeed.
    assassin… newsflash… Adam and Eve weren’t actually real people… it’s a fable dude. Never happened.

  134. on 10 Aug 2011 at 6:53 pm 134.Lou said …

    131.assassin said …

    “Adam asked for Eve and then blamed her childishly ’she made me do it’

    JUST ONE DAMN MINUTE! They had to reproduce, didn’t they? Without their begatting, then you wouldn’t be here.

    STUPID THEISTS!

    “…covering his shame with excuses, fig leaves!”

    He was ashamed of his size? Was it too small for Eve? Was that god’s punishment? As Hor would say, “We are still waiting to hear on the data.” (What was the unit of length in the bible days?)

    “What a moron!”

    Yes, indeed – what a moron.

  135. on 11 Aug 2011 at 8:03 am 135.assassin said …

    yes it is a fable and a true thing, why do people have to see things “either or”. both are true.

    It’s a matter of perception. If you want to see conflict you will find it. If you want to see conflict between science and religion you will find it, you will be lost in translation.

    In fact religion and science say the same thing:

    Religion says: God created man in his image taught him to speak and cast him out of paradise.

    Science says: Man became the highest predator, when man learned speech and left the jungle.

    paradise and jungle mean the same thing: garden

    Religion says: Adam ate of the tree of life (became intelligen like God) and was cast out cause he made oppression

    Science says: Homo sapiens was an omnivore who ate from the tree of life (the one you find in biology textbooks the tree of species)became intelligent and created a disbalance of the ecological system.

    It is totally the same thing but with a different langauge. You wouldn’t expect prophets and shamans talk about DNA right, but they spoke of the “snake”. They are the same thing, they carry the mystery of life.

    Religion and atheism are the same thing just different frequencies.

    Religion says: we are God’s image on Earth

    Atheism says: we are Gods on Earth

    Religion and science are like two siblings: one chose to become an artist the other chose to become an engineer. They are both right. when is mankind going to stop this bullshit who is right who is wrong and start embracing difference.

    Peace y’all!

  136. on 11 Aug 2011 at 8:15 am 136.assassin said …

    and Lou I am both: on and off medication!

    Plus I agree that it had to do with size too.

    Adam was not the Alfa Male, Adam was the shaman, of the tribe, shamans have the brain but they dont have the dick, they foresee (plan) the hunt but are not hunters.

    Cheers!

  137. on 11 Aug 2011 at 9:38 am 137.assassin said …

    Finally, prayers work but not in the fashion of “god cure cancer” and voila!

    prayers are self programing, when you pray you concentrate on something that aches you or someone else. if you pray for a sick person, you reinforce the urge to go and visit that person and make the person feel better and who knows take the person to hospital or suggest a solution that might help.

    when you pray for the poor, you reinforce the urge in yourself to share some of your provisions with someone else, the brain workss tick tick tick…. aaaa I know someone who is poor, and I’m going to send him/her something. Prayer is a mental concentration to generate solutions, not a wish list for Santa Claus.

    soon enough after millions of people pray for the amputees and give money for research and all that
    God might answer our prayers because it’s not lip service only. But if you think you can fool God with lip service forget it. If you have no compassion don’t even fuckin pray, cause it won’t change you and it won’t change God’s mind either!

  138. on 11 Aug 2011 at 4:42 pm 138.Lou said …

    137.assassin said …

    “prayers are self programing, when you pray you concentrate on something that aches you or someone else. if you pray for a sick person, you reinforce the urge to go and visit that person and make the person feel better and who knows take the person to hospital or suggest a solution that might help.”

    This is some of the dumbest bunch of rationalizing, self-deceiving b.s. that I ever read.

  139. on 11 Aug 2011 at 6:11 pm 139.DPK said …

    Actually that makes sense to me. When you’re looking for a job, you “pray” you get one… but you also hit the bricks and go looking, so no surprise when your prayers are answered.
    Funny that everything assassin explains does not “need” a supernatural god to make sense. Here’s a much simpler explanation… there is none.

  140. on 11 Aug 2011 at 8:38 pm 140.Lou said …

    139.DPK said …

    “Actually that makes sense to me.”

    It COULD make sense if that’s what people who regularly did, but they don’t. Because it doesn’t require prayer to motivate one’s self to do those things. People who pray for some imaginary god to do something for them usually aren’t going to do it themselves. And I really don’t accept that praying for a sick person motivates one to visit them. You either care about them or you don’t.

  141. on 12 Aug 2011 at 8:29 am 141.assassin said …

    wooow you guys are really tough!

    prayer is self discipline guys, just like going to a psychologist where you speak your heart out. it’s like a mental hygene, just like watchin a movie, but in this case it is not images it is words, just like reading your favorite fiction, or singing your favorite song. why do you find it disgusting that people find pleasure in prayer.

    yeah I know the word “God” triggers aversion, but no matter what language set you youse you are still going to have a supreme word, like “energy” in physics, Law in social encounters, “beauty” in art. so don’t hate God so much if he doesn’t exist, how can a nonexisting entity trigger so much reaction, your aversion will create one, a totalitarian anti-God, in that case Hitler will come in a more postmodern fashion like Bin Laden and stuff.

    Be careful what you hate cuase it will come true!

    If there is no God than you are God, cause you are the ultimate principle, so either you believe in God or you want to become God the Head, the ultimate principle so that everyone sucks your dick and must agree with what you say cuase if they don’t you unleash Hell, cursings, accusations, belittling others, considering them inferior because they play the fiddle and don’t do science. Are you jokimg? where is your humanistic compassion!

  142. on 12 Aug 2011 at 9:30 am 142.assassin said …

    religion and scientism make the same fallacy
    they create absent Gods.

    Reliogin says God exists but is not here, and He is coming at the end of time
    Scientism says There is no God, but we are on the way of Creating, one, just as soon as we invent quantum technology and refine bioengineering at the end of our experiments. We are almost there, very close to grabing God by the balls! The minute you get there you will notice that you got no balls at all and you’ve been chasing the wrong dragon balls who will piss over you!

    Fuck religion and fuck scientism, they are both self worshiping dickheads with a pussy for a heart!

  143. on 12 Aug 2011 at 9:48 am 143.assassin said …

    The universe needs God like pussy needs a dick, enough pretending that she is a virgin and has the membrane (is an isolated universe)and none can penetrate her and she s’got the balls. yeah wright! When Mr.Dick comes home, the universe will groan in orgasm! O my God, Oooooooo My Goooood!

  144. on 27 Oct 2011 at 6:25 pm 144.BrookeKelley22 said …

    Some time ago, I needed to buy a car for my firm but I did not have enough money and could not purchase something. Thank God my fellow suggested to try to take the mortgage loans at trustworthy creditors. Thence, I acted so and used to be satisfied with my bank loan.

  145. on 31 Jan 2012 at 2:22 pm 145.reverse phone lookup said …

    In order to discover an identity behind a Verizon wireless number, all you need to do is perform a Verizon reverse phone lookup.

  146. on 09 Feb 2012 at 3:19 am 146.Matt said …

    Call me fuckin crazy but assassin kinda makes sense

  147. on 28 Mar 2012 at 9:19 pm 147.Forfait mobile said …

    He was ashamed of his size? Was it too small for Eve? Was that god’s punishment? As Hor would say, “We are still waiting to hear on the data.” (What was the unit of length in the bible days?)

    “What a moron!”

  148. on 16 Jul 2012 at 3:29 am 148.funny said …

    well this was cute, im not religous at all, but even i know that you had your conclusion before you posited your thesis, not very scientific, try an open mind and try not to dismiss what cannot easily be explained… the world is flat, until it isnt

  149. on 02 Aug 2012 at 1:43 pm 149.deer hunting said …

    It?s actually very difficult in this active life to listen
    news on Television, thus I just use world wide web for that purpose, and
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  150. on 07 Oct 2012 at 3:42 am 150.Anonymous said …

    On the IONS (Noetic Science) website there is a big link to an ‘estate planning’ video. ’nuff said

  151. on 10 Oct 2012 at 11:51 pm 151.Sean said …

    Interesting discussion, (i’m agnostic) going through the posts i wonder what people here think of “imaginations” role in life. For example when Walt Disney went through 7 bankruptcies, and if you knew him, would you think he’d end up purchasing a large chunk of swampland florida and turn it into Disney or would you say it’s impossible?

  152. on 23 Nov 2012 at 4:16 pm 152.DENARD said …

    AM THE ONE BORN TO PUBLICIZE THE FACT THAT GOD EXISTS ONLY IN OUR MIND, NOT IN REALITY, HE IS COMPLETELY VIRTUAL AND IMAGINARY, SOON THE WHOLE WORLD LIKE MY TOWN AM LIVING IN WILL UNDERSTAND AND KNOW THE SIMPLE TRUTH. WE WILL MOVE ON WITH CIVILIZATION. PEOPLE ARE SIMPLY SCARED OF ACCEPTING THAT THEIR IS NOTHING LIKE HEAVEN AND HELL, SO THEY KEEP ON TRYING TO HARDEN THEIR HEARTS AND PRETEND TO BELIEVE IN GOD, BUT IT’S BECOMING EVEN MORE CLEAR, LIKE IT WERE WHEN THE THEORY OF THE EARTH BEING FLAT WAS BEING PROVEN WRONG, THAT GOD IS COMPLETELY IMAGINARY. THANK YOU

  153. on 19 Sep 2013 at 2:57 am 153.Anonymous said …

    I like how the christians here are not responding to good comments/questions put forth by atheist bloggers but instead attack the weak/stupid responses. Umad Christians?

    If God was really real, please go pray and save us from your hypocritical statements about religion. Doesn’t it say in your bible to practice what you preach? Lock yourselves in a room to pray, but get off this blog.

  154. on 10 Dec 2013 at 1:09 am 154.Ajia Strange said …

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  155. on 20 Sep 2014 at 7:20 pm 155.a Christian said …

    I am a Christian, and always will be. God is real and prayer doesn’t need to directly solve your problems to show his love for us. You can believe what you will, but that doesn’t mean I haven’t searched and considered many possibilities. In fact, I still do on a daily basis and have never encountered anything that could sway my faith.

  156. on 25 Oct 2014 at 3:02 pm 156.Ben said …

    For those of you who believe some “supreme being” is leading us, whatever that means, would you be open to the possibility that this being is some hideous alien being that just travels the universe seeding planets? I mean, seriously, this sounds less ridiculous than the invisible man living in the sky who watches everything we do. And if we stray, he send us to a place of eternal fire and torture. Use people’s fear to control them. Nuclear war in the 50s and 60s, market crashes and drugs in food in the 70s and 80s, terrorist attacks and market crashes in the 90s and 2000s, now its sex offenders, ebola and terrorists. Where does it end. Most of these things have almost no bearing on our lives, yet it’s used to control people. Religion is no different, but its the same old story for 2,000 years. Religion has stifled scientific discoveries and the advancement of the human race for far too long. It’s time we bury these old writings as myth and begin to explore humanity and the wonders science has to offer for a change.

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