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Christianity &Rationals Thomas on 14 Dec 2009 12:50 am

The Bible actually causes people to murder each other, not the opposite

A story that shows that the Bible does not necessarily teach morality – it sometimes teaches just the opposite:

The Belcher Islands murders

The number of dead was confirmed at nine in late April when police were able to investigate and have a doctor perform autopsies on the dead. Among the reports were those of the murder of several children: “Moses, aged 13 years; Alec Oomaraluk aged eight years; Johnasie, aged six years; Johnny Kokpuk, aged seven years; Nukarak, aged 55 years; and Kumudluk Sarah, aged 32 years, all froze to death after [a woman named] Mina forced them to walk onto the frozen Hudson’s Bay on the morning of March 29, 1941.[8] Testimony from witnesses suggested that, for example, the woman, Mina, was under the delusion at the time that she was God or Jesus, depending on reports. Of the other murders, the death of Sarah Apawkok involved others believing she was Satan; others involved disagreement over the claims of two other men who said they were God and Jesus.

There is some suggestion that the religious nature of the murders came from the fact an Anglican missionary had left a translated Bible among the hunters on the Belchers in the 1920s.

“…the Calgary Albertan reported that the Toronto Star had received details of the murders over short-wave radio. The murders, according to the Star, occurred during a religious dispute, concerning God’s return to earth, between two unnamed Eskimo families. In view of the religious nature of the dispute, the Star contacted Archibald Fleming, Anglican Bishop of the Arctic, for comments. Fleming explained that “it had been many years since there was a missionary on the Belchers who could help the Eskimos solve their theological difficulties.”

Imagine you are a small child. From the very earliest age you are hearing “Bible stories” that involve murder. Cain and Abel, Noah’s flood, King David, Jesus’ murder, etc. Don’t you suppose that this sort of education would predispose millions of people towards murder as a viable solution to their problems?

What if everyone in America had been raised without these stories?

45 Responses to “The Bible actually causes people to murder each other, not the opposite”

  1. on 14 Dec 2009 at 2:59 pm 1.Rostam said …

    Ha Ha Ha, cricky!. This story is from 1941 on wiki! Well, I saw a Bible mentioned. I never saw a verse stated that was used to justify the murders. I believer thought shalt not murder might debunk any arguments? Maybe even loving neighbor as yourself?

    Um, amazing how deep some will reach to put the black eye on the Bible.

  2. on 14 Dec 2009 at 4:31 pm 2.Ja said …

    How often do you find a sample of people untouched by the Bible, who are suddenly exposed to it and then left alone? Rare event.

    When it does happen, they end up murdering each other. Would you not think that the Holy Spirit would guide them?

  3. on 15 Dec 2009 at 12:49 am 3.Matthew Carrick said …

    Do a search for “Residential schools” for further info on what a swell idea religion can be.

  4. on 18 Dec 2009 at 3:51 pm 4.Severin said …

    “I never saw a verse stated that was used to justify the murders.“

    Why do you interfere with this debate if you never read the Bible?
    Please read it, then discuss.

  5. on 18 Dec 2009 at 4:04 pm 5.Severin said …

    Rostam, an example from Bible for you. If you never read Bible, do not, except you have a very good stomach. It is full of such direc orders from god.

    “Deuteronomy 22:20-21 – “If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.”

  6. on 18 Dec 2009 at 7:48 pm 6.VeridicusX said …

    Severin #5,

    I’m pleased that you’ve brought this up.

    Does Deuteronomy 22:20-21 apply to any daughters someone has sold as a sex slave in accordance with Exodus 21:7-11?

    Maybe Rostam knows the answer.

  7. on 25 Dec 2009 at 6:13 pm 7.Bekki said …

    You people!!! DO you REALLY think all this beautiful creation just “HAPPENED”? I AM A CHRISTIAN… YOU SAY GOD IS NOT REAL BECAUSE HE NEVER DOES GOOD THINGS FOR US… HE NEVER SAID IN HIS WORD THAT LIFE WAS GONNA BE A BOWL OF CHERRIES! AND YES I AM FREAKING 13 YEARS OLD!!!

  8. on 25 Dec 2009 at 6:16 pm 8.Bekki said …

    I HOPE YOU ALL KNOW YOU ARE BIG (WORDS THAT NO ONE SHOULD EVER SAY) I WANT YOU TO GO TO HEAVEN, CUZ I FEEL FOR YOU…BUT IF YOU CHOOSE TO BE STUBBORN WHEN YOU MEET GOD REMEMBER ME…AND YOU WILL BE WISHING YOU LISTENED…

  9. on 25 Dec 2009 at 6:20 pm 9.Bekki said …

    PLEASE BE SAVED!!! GOD DIED A PAINFUL DEATH AND YOURE BEING SUCH DONKEYS!!! DO YOU THINK SOMEONE WOULD WASTE TIME WRITING THE BIBLE IF IT DIDNT MEAN ANYTHING?!? GOD SPOKE DIRECTLY TO THOSE MEN WRITING IT…OH, PLEASE JUST LISTEN TO ME… YOU WILL PERISH IN HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY!!!

  10. on 26 Dec 2009 at 8:11 am 10.Bleu said …

    Well that was stupid of him.

    Hey, people write fiction all the time.

    Vishnu talked to the authors of the Vedas.

    Appeal to fear fallacy.

    “AND YES I AM FREAKING 13 YEARS OLD!!!”
    It shows. And ALL CAPS is cruise control for cool! (Not really.) Stop shouting.

  11. on 26 Dec 2009 at 9:43 pm 11.VeridicusX said …

    “YES I AM FREAKING 13 YEARS OLD!!!”

    Which means that you’re old enough to know better.

    “DO you REALLY think all this beautiful creation just “HAPPENED?”

    Feel free to present a logical alternative.

    Oh, and calling the Universe a “beautiful creation” is known as “begging the question”. You first have to show that the Universe was created, which will lead you into some major logical and metaphysical contradictions.

    Contradictions are how you know that something is false.

    “PLEASE BE SAVED!!! GOD DIED A PAINFUL DEATH AND YOURE BEING SUCH DONKEYS!!!”

    Ever hear of a concept called justice?
    It means that if you punish the “innocent” instead of the “guilty” its wrong!

    It’s whats known as a “perversion of justice”.

  12. on 26 Dec 2009 at 9:56 pm 12.Ben said …

    “DO you REALLY think all this beautiful creation just “HAPPENED?”

    Yes they do Bekki. That is their little fairytale in order to make their worldview make sense. Matter just showed and it just exploded and through random chance and processes life formed with absolutely no intelligence involved.

    Yes, it is crazy but they typically like to make it seem more feasible by referring to it as science. You already show good common sense to question their assumptions.

  13. on 26 Dec 2009 at 11:40 pm 13.VeridicusX said …

    Feel free to tell us how it happened then Ben.

    I’ll be here to show all the holes and contradictions in your “reasoning”.

  14. on 27 Dec 2009 at 2:44 am 14.Ben said …

    I laid out the belief pretty simply above X. Feel free to show me the holes. Show me how matter, energy and a wonderful explosion forms out of nothing and no intelligence to assist the process.

  15. on 27 Dec 2009 at 4:41 am 15.stephen said …

    these are opinions not facts, the only time i doubt God is when i see how fucking stupid and selfish people like you are…………let me guess are a lot of you gay????????????????? there is a good reason to doubt God….no rules
    We all just got here from nothing…………… universe, galaxies and everything, Here is an idea Why dont you all go fuck yourself , since that is the main reason you choose not to believe anyway , one day YOU WILL FIND out and ALL OF UR ATHEIST DUMB FUCK FRIENDS WON”T BE WITH YOU ………..it’ll be you and GOD alone.

  16. on 27 Dec 2009 at 10:22 am 16.Severin said …

    “…fucking stupid and selfish people like you are…”

    Not nice!

    You CAN NOT replace facts, evidences and arguments with anger!

    I, for example, do not think that you are “…fucking stupid and selfish…” because you think differently than I do.

    Maybe only “fucking ignorant”, but it could be easyly healed by learning.

  17. on 27 Dec 2009 at 12:09 pm 17.VeridicusX said …

    Ben,

    “Show me how matter, energy and a wonderful explosion forms out of nothing and no intelligence to assist the process.”

    “… forms out of nothing …”
    Is that your favored conjecture?

    “… and no intelligence to assist the process.”
    You presumably have some evidence that things and events require intelligence to assist?

    What about god?

    I infer from your defence of the words of the religiously mentally abused child, that your god of choice is Yahweh.

    YHWH means “I Am” or “I Am Becoming”.
    By your “reasoning” this baseless, bronze aged conjecture requires some prior intelligence to exist or to be happening?

    Could that prior intelligence be the Invisible Pink Unicorn?
    A being of immense spiritual power, able to be invisible and pink at the same time.

    This conjecture could be true as this is the sort of magic power required to be a supernatural creator. Case in point, Yahweh is invisible and white haired at the same time!

  18. on 27 Dec 2009 at 12:27 pm 18.Severin said …

    I do not think this is the level Ben is able to accept!
    At least not before he passes a healing treatment.

    “Fucking” is his absolutely main argument!

  19. on 27 Dec 2009 at 12:28 pm 19.Severin said …

    “Fucking” is his absolutely main argument!

    Sorry, this is for Stephen!

  20. on 27 Dec 2009 at 8:12 pm 20.Ben said …

    So X will you be bebunking my argument or going off on tangents? I realize changing the subject and attacking the intelligence of others is preferred forms of argument but do you having anything of substance to debunk what I have laid out?

    Your friends have done nothing to cause me to be hopeful you have any valid thoughts for me to remain hopeful you have something more than a fairytale.

  21. on 28 Dec 2009 at 2:57 am 21.Horatio said …

    You bring up origins. The kryptonite of the atheist! Don’t expect anything other than “we don’t know but we will one day”. I like to view it as the equivalent of the atheist using the “God did it” criticism against Christians. I never heard a christian make such a claim but I’m sure it is possible.

  22. on 28 Dec 2009 at 9:21 am 22.Severin said …

    Bekki #9
    “DO YOU THINK SOMEONE WOULD WASTE TIME WRITING THE BIBLE IF IT DIDNT MEAN ANYTHING?!?”

    And do you think someone would waste time to write the Koran, if it didn’t mean anything?

    What about “wasting of time” on thousends of silly books people took effort to write them? Some of them are just silly, other ones are dangerous, as they directly propague hate (Hitler’s “Mein Kampf” =”My Struggle”). Someone obviously took effort to write such books BY PURPOSE!
    In most cases the purpose was to keep subjects obediant in ignorance, to make rulers easier job.

    You are so young (13?)and no doubt intelligent. Try to use your own logic, and your own common sense.
    Make your own comparisons and conclusions!

  23. on 28 Dec 2009 at 9:24 am 23.Severin said …

    Bekki,
    Maybe the right name was Kuran, or Kur’an, but I hope you understood (in my language, a slavic one, something similar to russian, it is “Koran”)

  24. on 28 Dec 2009 at 10:45 am 24.Severin said …

    Ben 14
    „Show me how matter, energy and a wonderful explosion forms out of nothing and no intelligence to assist the process.“

    Such things are already shown by thousends of ingenious people such as Isaac Newton, Charles Darwin, Albert Einstein, Stephen Howking, Else Meitner, Ernest Rutherford, Andre Ampere, Enrico Fermi, Edwin Hubble, Marie Curie………………….
    They shawed us that the history of universe was QUITE DIFFERENT of that „shawn“ in Bible!
    The most important evidence they were right is that their inventions are really WORKING!. Telephony, plains, cars, making electricity through degradation of atoms, medicals healing deseases – everything works!

    So: scientific theories totaly contradictory to Bible shits WORK! We live our lives exploiting them.
    There is no need me/us to shaw evidences: they surround us and are clearly visible to everyone.

    Now it is your turn to finally shaw us how an intelligent creature created universe.
    Why are you avoiding it all the time?

  25. on 28 Dec 2009 at 10:54 am 25.VeridicusX said …

    “So X will you be bebunking my argument or going off on tangents?”

    What arguments?

  26. on 28 Dec 2009 at 11:23 am 26.Severin said …

    Can anyone explain to me what the hell “Satan” (devil?) is?

    That gentleman could be a good proof that something is very wrong with the “theory” of god being all-mighty and intelligent creator of universe.
    He “intelligently” created universe, but created also a parallel mighty power to fight him???
    How mighty??
    Obviously VERY mighty, as we all the time listen about their mutual struggles, in which none of them ever wins.
    O.K. I have hard that in future there will be a FINAL STRUGGLE, in which god will (probably) win.
    But, why, the hell, struggles, at all, if our creator is so mighty and intelligent?
    I was told that he said a word, and universe was created!
    Wouldn’t it be enough that he only thinks/says “dissapear you, Satan”, and Satan dissapears?
    God to STRUGGLE? An all-mighty, intelligent creator, able to create universe by just saying a word?
    Humiliating!
    How is it that god can not finally fight Satan (devil?) out?
    Do both of them possess an equal quantity of power and intelligence?
    Should we start to believe there is a parallel “god”, only evil one?
    If he (Satan) is so mighty that god himself can not fight him out, that would be very logical conclusion!
    Or, if god was really a creator, should we start to think how UNINTELLIGENT (stupid) he was?
    No human ruler would ever create a power against himself!

  27. on 28 Dec 2009 at 2:25 pm 27.Ben said …

    X

    Come on now. The atheist is suppose to be the highly evolved individual. Tell, how did matter and energy originate from nothing to provide us the Big Bang.

    You are not just sticking with “just happened” as your explanation in #11 are you? Maybe as Horatio acknowledged we found your kryptonite to bring down your entire fantasyland?

    Just Happened = Christian’s “God did it”

    ++++++++++++++++++

    Severin do you own read you own post? LOL, what a mess. You are an atheist I suppose? Issac Newton of all scientist a very strong Christian. lol

  28. on 28 Dec 2009 at 4:10 pm 28.Severin said …

    Ben 27
    “Issac Newton of all scientist a very strong Christian. lol”
    Where did I say they were atheists?
    And what if some of them weren’t? They were honest enough to understand that Bible an teaching of their church were both wrong, and had courrage enough to public their works which oposed to church’s dogma.
    So were Giordano Bruno (an honest catholic, burnt by his own church), Gallileo Galilei, Copernicus, ad many, many others.

    Not all religious people are stupid by definition.
    I would even say MOST of them are not. Maybe “seduced”, stubborn, shamed, frightened….it is not easy to admit you were wrong. In some (christian) countries it is still even dangerous.

    However, it is VERY interesting you did not give me more examples! You probably had in mind that all the others I listed were atheists.
    So, how do you bear the fact that so many atheists were right, and you (and I) have comfortable lives thanks to their magnificant brains?

    “Just Happened = Christian’s “God did it”

    How do you know it was’t Allah? Or Budha? Or Quetzalcoatl? Or Ra?……

  29. on 28 Dec 2009 at 5:39 pm 29.Horatio said …

    “You are not just sticking with “just happened” as your explanation in #11 are you?”

    I think we all agree it just happened. But what was it? Now atheist claim, as fact, there is no God. I have seen the holiday signs personally. Now if they KNOW for fact there is no God, creator or sustainer of any type then they should be able to tell us what it was or is that brought matter about from the beginning to complete their argument. If not, they can only be deemed liars.

    Ben don’t feed the mad-hatter, please!

  30. on 28 Dec 2009 at 5:40 pm 30.Severin said …

    “Tell, how did matter and energy originate from nothing to provide us the Big Bang.”

    Mater (=energy) exists, is there any doubt about it?
    Who said it originated from “nothing”?
    It just exists, and is changing its forms during history of universe, according to natural laws.
    It did not just „appear from nothing“ to create Big bang, but IT (the matter/energy), that already existed in different form, exploded to create the Big Bang. Before this explosion it existed too, just in another form. Similar to water going to wapor under heating, and to ice under cooling.
    Why is it unnatural in any rational way that matter/energy exist from ever and ever and for ever and ever.
    Antoine Lavoisier (a French chemist, catholic) first posted this natural law in 18th century.

    Why should matter/energy be „created“. It was not. It just exists.
    „Why“ is wrong question! „How“ is the rigth one.

  31. on 28 Dec 2009 at 6:15 pm 31.Severin said …

    Horatio 29
    “You are not just sticking with “just happened” as your explanation in #11 are you?”, etc

    The same story repeats again!
    Somebody claims something without any evidences/ argumaents (that god created universe), and aggressively requests evidences for oposite opinion, without offering ANY for his own!

    Nobody can prove negative claim such as “god does not exist”, but millions of arguments tell us that such a claim is not likely to be the truth. Evidences that universe has history very different than if it was “created” were offered by thousends of scientists, including catholics, muslims, budhists, atheists, evidences and arguments are arround you, just look at them.

    Nobody can prove there is NO green sparrows with diamond hearts in the center of the earth, but can offer logical arguments against such a stupidity.
    One claiming there ARE, should offer evidences and arguments!

    Positive claims (god does exist) should not be difficult to prove. So prove it!
    Give us evidences and arguments, instead of permanent attacking!

  32. on 28 Dec 2009 at 6:53 pm 32.VeridicusX said …

    Horatio,

    Unless you have some valid evidence that it didn’t “just happen” you are just wasting electricity and everyone’s time.

    “Ben don’t feed the mad-hatter, please!”

    If you’re anything like others of your lying kin you’re probably mentally, physically or sexually abusing some poor child just as in the Bible.

  33. on 28 Dec 2009 at 7:04 pm 33.VeridicusX said …

    Ben,

    “Tell, how did matter and energy originate from nothing to provide us the Big Bang.”

    You still haven’t said why you think matter and energy originated from “nothing”.
    I certainly never told you that.

    “You are not just sticking with “just happened” as your explanation in #11 are you?”

    Yes, unless you have some other valid explanation, (which is where we started).

    “Just Happened = Christian’s “God did it”"

    Explain how “Just Happened” = Magical, genocidal, sex slavery promoting, child impregnator did it.

  34. on 28 Dec 2009 at 8:48 pm 34.Severin said …

    Horatio 21
    ….”we don’t know but we will one day”

    Yes! Quite so!
    We did not know the earth was otbitnig the sun, and we learnt it.
    We did not know microorganisms cause deseases, and we learnt it.
    We even invented many medicals to cure deseases.
    We did not know how to make elctricity usin rivers, atoms, wind, and we learnt it.
    We did not even know electricity exists, and we learnt it.
    ……… (millions of such „we did not know“)…..

    We do not know many things today, but we are learning, and prity effective!
    What we do not know today, we will know tomorrow.

    So what are the frshest news about god?
    Anything fresher than 2000 years old nonsenses written in a book called Bible?

  35. on 28 Dec 2009 at 8:55 pm 35.Severin said …

    Anyone tell me why millions of people in China, both Americas, Australia, Africa, never heard fo christian god/Jesus before 15th century or even later?

    Why god neglected so many of his “children” for such a long time?
    Then he sent christians there to spread christianity by fire and sword.

  36. on 28 Dec 2009 at 8:57 pm 36.Ben said …

    “You still haven’t said why you think matter and energy originated from “nothing”.”

    Fair enough, where did it come from?

    “Explain how “Just Happened” = Magical, genocidal, sex slavery promoting, child impregnator did it”

    No No, we have established it just happened. You made that clear to Bekki. How did it happen? Remember, atheist have clearly showed us No God so provide a reasoned explanation

  37. on 28 Dec 2009 at 10:04 pm 37.Severin said …

    For Bekki

    Do not allow to be misused!
    Ones that have no arguments at all, are “zigzaging” to avoid to expose them, and MISUSE YOU TO TURN EVERYBODY’s ATTENTION FROM THE REAL PROBLEM!

    The real problem is:
    If somebody makes a POSITIVE claim, he has to bring some evidences in favour of waht he claims.

    Positive claims are, for example:
    Earth is a globe.
    Water is built from hydrogen (H) and oxigen (O).
    There is a yellow kettle orbiting Jupiter
    God exists.

    If someone exposes such claims, he MUST give some supporting evidences for them!
    Otherwise, such claims are not even theories, but fairy tails, or pure “blah blah”.

    NEGATIVE claims is NOT POSSIBLE TO PROVE.

    I can PROVE thet water is made of H and O, but I CAN NOT PROVE, USING LOGIC, it is NOT made of sulphur and sodium.

    So: existance of god is necessary to prove, and his non-existance is IMPOSSIBLE to prove.

    Now, instead of offering some evidences for their claim that god exists and that he was a creator of universe, THEY REQUEST EVIDENCES FORM OTHERS that he does NOT exist.

    I claim that THERE IS A YELLOW KETTLE ORBITNIG JUPITER! Try to prove I am wrong! You can not, and my claim, without any evidences, stays as “true” one.
    THAT is their strategy!
    I claim something, and you prove I am wrong!
    Very dirty!
    Even more dirty to use YOU!

    You believe what you please, and in case of taking part in a debate, try to use your own logic, to find your own evidences and arguments, please do not use OTHERS to defend your opinion, as others are using you!

  38. on 28 Dec 2009 at 10:18 pm 38.Severin said …

    “Remember, atheist have clearly showed us No God so provide a reasoned explanation”

    SHOWED, yes, very clearly, that idea of god as creator of universe was very unlikely to be true.
    No evidence suports his existance, many evidences SUPPORT THE PROBABILITY yhere is no god.
    PROVED, no, negative claims are impossible to prove by logic. We are fair enought to admit it.

    Now, FINALLY, you prove us that god exists!
    Or be fair to admit there are no supporting evidences for such a claim.

    Or, to use your own methods:

    PROVE that matter did not come from “nothing”

    Although none of us claimed such a stupid thing, I am claiming it now, just like that, I changed my opinion: yes, matter just appeared from nothing!
    Now YOU prove it false!

  39. on 28 Dec 2009 at 11:08 pm 39.Horatio said …

    X Said: “Unless you have some valid evidence that it didn’t “just happen”

    Of course it happened we are here. Are you capable of proving how it happened? I sure hope you don’t resort to some sort of SETI science.

    X Said “If you’re anything like others of your lying kin you’re probably mentally, physically or sexually abusing some poor child just as in the Bible.”

    Wow, your hate is palatable and quite a broad Ad hominem attack. Prove “The Rest” are doing what you just accused. A shame, just deflection and ad hominem attacks. You don’t have much to offer. No class.

    The mad-hatter was directed at our roving ADHD troll not you but you.

  40. on 29 Dec 2009 at 6:55 am 40.Anonymous said …

    If god loves anyone then why on what part of the world are there people starving to death and in some parts peopel have so much they over indulge

    I am not here to argue or waste time just a thought for people

    If God loves you so much then why are you all stuck in middle class?. When there are people who can do whatever they want cause they have money, people like movie stars who do not even believe in God..they can do anything they want at ant moment but….the rest of us in middle class struggle at times to get our basic needs fulfilled….and the poor suffer all the time So does god think certain peopel are better than you?

    Does paris hilton deserve more than you, God must love her she gets everything no pain no struggle and a pleasent smooth life she can go on a vacation to Italy right now, fuck off do anything she wants and the rest of us…well we will be working the rest of our lives and if God loves us so much why are we stuck in middle class?

    Why are the poor suffering? why do certain people deerve more than others?, so basically Paris hilton is better than all of you she doesnt have time to argue about the existence of God on a little forum online she’s out having fun living it up, getting what she wants, there is no time for god she has nothing to fear after all like we do, she has enough money never to struggle, she has so much moeny there is no need for fear or for worrying or for placating the existence to be tolerable, we have struggles to face because God loves us so much to put us in middle class and alot of people are struggling and praying and yet there are people who dont even believe in God who can do whatever they want.

    And you think God loves you?, god loves you so much you get to suffer and other people for some reason with money will get to enjoy all the things beautiful and you will be stuck in a hole your whole life working for money. And attacking people personally and individually is very childish, calling them names, why cant people just accept people have different mindsets and if you truly are grounded in your beliefs you would not have to try so hard to reassure yourself and get mad that other people didnt believe it, cause something should happen to them like it did to you to make you believe fully.

  41. on 29 Dec 2009 at 7:08 am 41.VeridicusX said …

    Horatio,

    “Of course it happened we are here. Are you capable of proving how it happened?”

    Unable to parse English and apply logic are you?

    “Wow, your hate is palatable and quite a broad Ad hominem attack. Prove “The Rest” are doing what you just accused. A shame, just deflection and ad hominem attacks.”

    Haven’t you been keeping up with the news covering credophiles these past couple of thousand years?

    “You don’t have much to offer. No class.”

    Baseless, faith-based assertions. Is this some more of your credophilia?

  42. on 29 Dec 2009 at 7:22 am 42.VeridicusX said …

    Ben,

    “No No, we have established it just happened. You made that clear to Bekki. How did it happen?”

    Unable to parse English and apply logic are you? Is this your “reasoning”?

    “Just Happened” = “Just Happened”
    “Just Happened” != “Just Happened Because …”.

    “Fair enough, where did it come from?”

    What evidence do you have that “it came from” anywhere?
    Provide evidence that the Universe came from somewhere.

  43. on 29 Dec 2009 at 9:17 am 43.Severin said …

    “Of course it happened we are here. Are you capable of proving how it happened?”

    If you ask me, I doubt I would be capable to prove how it happened.
    To find out how it happened, read: Isaac Newton, Charles Darwin, Albert Einstein, Stephen Howking, Else Meitner, Ernest Rutherford, Andre Ampere, Enrico Fermi, Edwin Hubble, Marie Curie………………….

    My evidences are based on their brilliant scientific accomplishments, which WORK.

    Do not read Bible, its “accomplishments” do not work!

  44. on 29 Dec 2009 at 1:24 pm 44.Horatio said …

    X indirectly answers the question He is one of the “It has always been here crowd” although he , of course, won’t directly admit that. Too cowardly to take a side, he lamely attempts to change subject.

    So he believes a universe and thus matter and energy have always existed, no beginning and no evidenced end. Hmm, I think he has found his god!

  45. on 30 Dec 2009 at 6:16 pm 45.Severin said …

    Horatio 44:
    “So he believes a universe and thus matter and energy have always existed, no beginning and no evidenced end. Hmm, I think he has found his god!“

    Again, and again!
    Horatio’s logic:
    „I am pardoned to give ANY arguments, evidences, facts. It is quite enough from my side to say something to make it true, but YOU, eh, you are something else, you HAVE to bring evidences!“

    I/we (atheists) DO NOT give the matter divine attributes.It is not my/our god.
    We do not pray to it, we do not worship it, we do not expect „salvation“ from it…., we just know it exists.
    If you do not believe it exists, just touch the first object you see.

    Foro how long it exists, is another question.
    There are too many evidences that matter (=energy) exists out of time, or better to say TOGETHER with time. So not only matter = energy, but, in a way, also, matter = time, and matter = space.
    I honestly admit that I am not educated enough to deal with mathematical tools scientists use to prove such things (algebra and trigonometry are my peaks), but I am educated enough (and intelligent enough) to recognize what they are saying when addressing to ordinary people to explain their works in common words.

    Do I trust them? Of course I do!
    Scientist’s works are PROVEN to function. You just turn right-left and you will se so many news based on Einstein’s, Howking’s (etc, etc.) basic scietific accomplishments, that you’ll get dizziness.
    If you do not trust them, get your mobile phone away, do not enter plains/trains, do not go for medical help, do not use computers….., because ALL of it is based on science, and science alone.
    NOTHING of it was ever mentioned in any way in Bible, or in any other religious book.
    Stoning of non-virgin ladies (but NOT stoning of non-virgin men!) was.
    How can I trust Bible? The a.m. examples (not mentioning scientific accomplishments, and stoning non-virgins) would do to lose all confidence in such books, and what with all other bullshits written there?

    Finally, you claimed there was a creator of universe, I did not.

    As you know that negative claims are impossible to prove, so I/we can not PROVE there is no god, please feel free to give me/us some evidences for your claim.

    In normal world someone exposing a claim usually gives some supporting arguments.

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