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Christianity &Islam &Judaism Thomas on 23 Nov 2009 12:54 am

Why does God allow suffering?

According to Christians we have an all-loving God who sits in heaven and answers the prayers of believers. Yet this God allows massive worldwide suffering in the form of natural disasters, crime, torture, genocide, war, starvation, disease, birth defects, etc. Why? Here is the religious response to this conundrum:

Why does God allow suffering?

Frames the issue: Problem of evil

131 Responses to “Why does God allow suffering?”

  1. on 23 Nov 2009 at 2:43 pm 1.Burebista said …

    When a parent takes an infant to the doctor for a regular vaccination to prevent some childhood disease, it’s because the parent cares for and loves that child. The young child however will almost always see things very differently. When the doctor’s needle goes into that little arm, the child will often cry out and howl from the pain. It may look up at the parent, with those big innocent eyes, in the most pleading and pitiful way, as if to say, “Look at the horrible thing that’s happening to me! Don’t you care about my terrible suffering? How can you just stand there and allow this to go on? Don’t you love me?”

    The parent however knows better. He or she is aware that everything is going to be all right in a very short time (even though it almost always has an emotional impact on the parent to see the child distressed in such a way). A minor, brief pain is the price the child pays for a healthier life later.

    Just as an infant cannot possibly understand the motives of its parent while it is still only a child, so too we cannot appreciably comprehend God’s will for us while we are still as we are. It’s a matter of perspective – the brief few years of a physical human lifetime, versus the eternity, time without end, that will follow. Giod may be telling you to examine where you will spend eternity.

  2. on 23 Nov 2009 at 2:54 pm 2.Wake Up said …

    Or it may be that there is no god, there is suffering because we live in a non-magical natural world that is completely oblivious to suffering, and you are wasting your life believing in lies and fairy tales.

    It’s funny how that, when we examine the universe and the world around us impartially, it looks *exactyly* how we would expect it to look if there were no intelligence involved in it.

    When you remove gods from the equation, everything about the universe and the world makes perfect sense.

  3. on 23 Nov 2009 at 3:12 pm 3.FSM said …

    Your analogy doesn’t make any sense for an omnipotent supernatural being. Your imaginary god is supposedly all-knowing and all-powerful. It is perfect and can do anything. Therefore it could have easily made the world and the universe in such a way so that there was no suffering, while at the same time teaching us any “lessons” it wished to teach us or infusing us with any knowledge it wished us to possess. We could have been born with the knowledge and feelings that it wished us to have (we weren’t). Heck, we could have been born with the knowledge that it exists (we aren’t). It could do anything at all. Anything!

    There is absolutely no excuse whatsoever for such a being to allow suffering to occur. None. Period. This is a fact which cannot be effectively reputed by your simplistic analogies and hand-waving. Apologists have been trying to do this for two thousand years and fail every time.

    Your own simplistic analogy places limitations on your god, which by definition makes it no longer a god (at least not the god of the Judeo-Christian bible).

    What a horrifically cruel monster your imaginary god would be. Fortunately for all of us, including you, it only exists in your imagination.

  4. on 23 Nov 2009 at 3:19 pm 4.Epicurus said …

    How are non-human animals (birds, cows, kittens, etc) taught things through suffering?

    What’s the purpose of the torment of the billions and billions of animals that have died from starvation or been eaten alive over the course of history?

    Does their unimaginable suffering teach them to love their torturer as well?

  5. on 23 Nov 2009 at 5:30 pm 5.Snowflake said …

    “The parent however knows better. He or she is aware that everything is going to be all right in a very short time (even though it almost always has an emotional impact on the parent to see the child distressed in such a way). A minor, brief pain is the price the child pays for a healthier life later.”

    Actually, everything will not necessarily be all right in a very short time. In a number of cases suffering does not end after our material life does, but an eternity of suffering awaits.

    Oh, and this applies not only to those who reject God. What of those that have never heard about him? Or, what of those like me – who do not directly reject God, but rather cannot force themselves to believe in something without real evidence?

    According to Christian theology, billions of people will suffer eternally in Hell. Tell me, who is deserving of this? If it was within your power would you curse the following people to eternal torture?:

    1. Someone who has never met or heard of you.
    2. Someone who was told about you, but has never met you and has no evidence you exist.
    3. Your worst, absolute enemy, who has met you, rejected you, and spit in your face.

    Is even the 3rd example deserving of ETERNAL suffering? If you were to condemn anyone, even your worst enemy, to an eternity of torture, I would consider it an evil act.

    The Problem of Evil does not just address the existence of evil in our material world. It also shines a light on the inherent evil of God’s overall plan. He made the rules, and the rules damn billions of sentient beings to a never-ending existence of suffering. That, in itself, is evil.

  6. on 23 Nov 2009 at 6:41 pm 6.Burebista said …

    “It could do anything at all. Anything!”

    Actually no my spaghetti friend. God cannot do anything contrary to His character. He cannot cheat, steal,etc. This is why so many make such charges against God when they have little understanding of His character.

    God did not produce robots. He created man to worship and love Him through their freewill. Who wants their children to love them through force? Unfortunately many believe suffering is somehow His fault or fail to realize it is just a part of life. God did bring sin to the world, man did. Its not a part of life to come for those who know Him as LORD.

    Evil exists for two reasons. Man does not live up to God’s commands and man brought sin into the world. He expects us to feed the hungry, care for the elderly, love one another as our ourselves, etc. We don’t but you blame God? No, don’t think so.

  7. on 23 Nov 2009 at 6:43 pm 7.Xenon said …

    “It’s funny how that, when we examine the universe and the world around us impartially, it looks *exactyly* how we would expect it to look if there were no intelligence involved in it.”

    ______________________________________________

    Really? And what other intelligently designed universe do you have to compare this to? LOL, sorry I just had to.

  8. on 23 Nov 2009 at 8:15 pm 8.foster said …

    ‘The parent however knows better. He or she is aware that everything is going to be all right in a very short time”

    Yes and to God a 1000 years is like a day. So any suffering here is a very short time to God. We are not the sophisticated intellectuals we believe ourselves to be. Trust God, he knows it will be all better in a short time.

  9. on 23 Nov 2009 at 11:14 pm 9.AntiRoss said …

    What utter arrogance that you Christians think that you know the mind of your god and that you are empowered to speak for it.
    You pretend to know his character, and lie to others pretending that you ‘know’ the he has a plan, or knows better. You don’t ‘know’ any such thing, so that makes you liars.
    And to top it off you try to illustrate your pretentious position with some infantile story of a vaccine and a parent. It’s not Sunday school. Your idiotic god keeps on taking the wrong people or inflicting extreme suffering to all life forms – so why worship such a useless pointless creature. Fall to your knees all you want, but bury your heads in shame for your victim mentality.

  10. on 23 Nov 2009 at 11:48 pm 10.Sarah said …

    The “god” of The Bible is a sadist, and you have to question the mentality of those who worship it.

  11. on 23 Nov 2009 at 11:52 pm 11.Sarah said …

    “He cannot cheat, steal,etc.”

    But he has no problem slaughtering men, women, and children. The god of The Bible has questionable morality, and no DECENT human being would worship such a monster.

    Maybe you should take a CLOSER look at your Bible, and then get back to me about the morality of your god.

  12. on 24 Nov 2009 at 12:36 am 12.Burebista said …

    “You don’t ‘know’ any such thing, so that makes you liars.”

    No, I have the Word of God. God tells me all we need to know. Hardly makes anyone arrogant. It His his revelation to all mankind. Antiross you seem awfully angry. Life can be tough. Turn your life over to Him.

    Sara God is the creator of morality. He is love, mercy & grace and he is also the God of judgement. He is the only one holy enough to bring judgement.

  13. on 24 Nov 2009 at 1:27 am 13.Mark Greene said …

    Indeed, Burebista, you are soft-spoken, yet self-righteous. You are lost in a faith-based belief that does not allow for you to think for yourself. Everything you say is intended to be hypnotic and persuasive, but it comes across to free thinkers as the mindlessness of an obedient slave. Your intellect is no more convincing than your “bible”. We have heard it all before. And morality is not the creation of a god. It is a natural part of life, and a choice. Maybe I think you immoral for passing off superstition and myth as fact. And as for judgment, you should not pass it. You have no right to judge that someone must “turn his life over” to anyone. Do you deem yourself “holy”? It appears so.

  14. on 24 Nov 2009 at 1:41 am 14.Burebista said …

    You are right Mark. I am a slave to the Lord Jesus Christ. No problem there. I wouldn’t change a thing in my life. Everyone is a slave to something. Am I holy? Only by the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ.

    My intellect is now in question Mark? I never made a claim about my own intellect. You feel the need to go there? Intellect is a passing trait.

    I am immoral for passing my faith as fact? Would that make this site immoral as well? Not a good argument.

    I don’t judge anyone. I claim one must turn their life over to Christ based on His words. You claim I must reject Christ based on your own belief. Another poor argument Mark.

    Open your life to Him. He can bring the peace you seek.

  15. on 26 Nov 2009 at 11:56 am 15.Vincent said …

    If God exists, the reason he allows pain is because he is the author of confusion, pain and suffering. It has been said that the worst evil in the world is when good men stand by and do nothing. How much worse then is god, this god that has all the powers of the universe at his disposal… and all the while he watches as people kill each other in wars, how innocent little children get gassed in nazi concentration camps. How genocide occurs in Boznia, how he watches as the planes fly closer and closer to the twin towers, all the while doing nothing! He watches as people starve to death every day in africa, he stands by as a little kid watches her mother die of AIDS. He watches as girls get raped, How little kids get sexually abused. he watched as black people got forcefully removed from africa, their roots, their loved ones, in shackles and chains to become the slaves of strange nations. In fact, god watched as barbarians would loot and plunder villages, slaughtering men and then taking the woman and girls to satisfy their needs. Imagine that, you have just watched your husband/brother/father butchered by a sword/axe/knife, your village burned, and then to get raped by a fithy, wretched stranger with rotten teeth and putrid loins, Used like an animal. God sat by and did nothing. For far too long the devil and mankind have been blamed, it is always us, Always our evil and sin that causes all the pain, suffering and trouble, but what about this god that actually created man and the devil? (If a product is faulty, look to the manufacturer that created it!)What of this god that irrationally wipes out the entire world in a flood, that turns people into pillars of salt just cause they turned around to look at some village or whatever. This god that demands the sacrifice of innocent animals, demands the death of something to atone for “sins”. God, if he exists, allows pain because he is a self obsessed, insecure jerk who has no qualms with eternally burning people just because they did not “believe in him”.

  16. on 26 Nov 2009 at 12:42 pm 16.julie in Brooklyn said …

    God exists.

    But the bible has it all wrong.

    Our universe and our earth and life on earth were an early attempt by God, that didn’t quite work out.

    God has moved onto the next thing, and really wants to forget us.

    God is annoyed by our prayers, always asking for stuff.

    “Please heal my sick family member!”
    “Please let my sports team win!”
    “Please let me buy a new car!”

    blah blah blah blah

    God really wishes we would all just shut up.

  17. on 26 Nov 2009 at 2:40 pm 17.Biff said …

    “(If a product is faulty, look to the manufacturer that created it!”

    Or maybe the end user who mistreated it! Your rant is hilarious and has been shown to be faulty time after time.

  18. on 26 Nov 2009 at 10:32 pm 18.Severin said …

    Burebista said …
    “God did bring sin to the world, man did.”
    Burebista said …
    “Sara God is the creator of morality.”

    Now, Burebista, make your choice!
    If god is creator of morality, how man could be responsible for all the evil on this earth?
    If god is creator of morality, how could man bring the sin on the world?

    Someone wrote a BIG article to try to convince me (us) that suffering is part of god’s plan, and that it brings us good as final consequence.
    In this articel, what arguments is the writer offering?
    Arguments from Bible! A book written in barbarian times by who-knows-whom, ful of unconsequent, irrational, ilogical statements, brutality, child-killing, slavory, …

    At least, when you start read the article, you immediately feel disgusting: it seams that god was extremely self-loving, an extreme egoist, when he decided to punish children for the “sin” of eating some forbiden fruit by their oldest ancestors, thousend yeras after they commited this “sin”. If an unbaptismal child dies, what happens with his/her soul, according to christian religion? Is this innocent soul automatically getting happy eternal life? o, this poor soul has first to suffer because its grnd…grand…mother and father eat an apple (or had sex, whatever)
    What a monster!

    Then, a “god’s plan” is contradictory to “free will” of man.
    If man has a choice, than god’s plan does not function.
    Who needs it? Man will do what he wants, no matter what god likes him to do.
    If god has a detailed plan with each human being, than man’s “free will” is useless. What CAN I DO if a mighty one already put me in his “timetables”.
    Moreover, the god’s plan exuses man for anything he does! It is the GOD’s PLAN, what can one do against it?

    Finally, why god invented such agly and cruel sufferings for people disobaying him?
    A slight toothache would discipline disobedients!

    For me, the question of all questions would be, if I was a believer, not why we need religion (there are several rational explanation for this delusion), but WHY GOD NEEDS US?
    A creature with ABSOLUTE POWER “CREATED US” – WHY? From HIS point of view?
    Couldn’t be better and much more confortable for him to create a chess partner if he was bored?

    As you believers are always ready to explain god’s words, will, intentions (I would never dare, as believer, being frightened of blasphemy!), someone explain me why god created us!

  19. on 27 Nov 2009 at 9:10 am 19.vincent said …

    Biff said …

    “Or maybe the end user who mistreated it! Your rant is hilarious and has been shown to be faulty time after time.”

    Biff, I dont think I am unreasonable in my statement. According to the bible and general christian beliefs, everything that you are, absolutely every single ounce and fibre of your being was created by god. I will not dispute that as humans we can abuse ourselves, hurt ourselves or others out of our own free wills, but if you go deeper, the very fact that we are able to cause harm, that we have a capacity to “sin”, to hate, to destroy, means we were made with that capability. if you were not created with the capability to be evil, evil would be impossible to do. For example, can you or I lay hands on a week old rotten corpse and suddenly make it come back to life, regenerated as if it never died?…you can try until you are blue in the face but i can stake my life on it…we are not capable of it. In the same vein, if you were not made just a little bit evil, doing bad would not be possible. so yes, the fault lies with the manufacturer!

  20. on 27 Nov 2009 at 1:28 pm 20.Biff said …

    Vinny

    We are not “manufactured” we are created. That is why your rant is so hilarious. You can chose to be evil or not. It is called free will. Because some chose to do evil is not the fault of the creator. The majority of individuals go and chose not to do evil. Your argument is ridiculous.

  21. on 27 Nov 2009 at 5:37 pm 21.Severin said …

    What is so big difference between “manufactured” and “created”. Please explain it to me.

    What about god’s plan? I have read a big article from a catholic writer about god’s plan. He tried to convince me/us that I/we DO NOT HAVE FREE WILL, because EVERY SINGLE EVENT in my/our lives is strictly planned by him.
    Gentleman writer, from the point of view of catholic church MUST be right, otherwise they would never allow him to publish such an article on their cost, on a catholic Site.

    So, if he was right, if god had detailed plan for each of us, where is our free will? What can we do by our own will at all?

    “Evil” does not exist in nature! Nature is morally indifferent. Everything contributing survival is “moral” for survivor and could be bad (“evil”, “immoral”) for other creatures. Think about some sort of wasp placing their eggs to living body of a spider. Then wasp’s larva eats living spider, very slowly and carefully, to let it live as long as possible (in pain!), to have food for longer period.

    Is THIS a morality of a creator (manufacturer) full of mercy? Did creator give free will to spider, and is punishing him for his “sin”.

    If god has some reasons to impose sufferings to human race, to “discipline” it to be in accordance to his rules, especially as he “gave” humans free will, O.K., why he also imposed severe suffering to animal world? Animals have no free will!
    Did creator make mistake?

    Too many mistakes for my taste!

  22. on 27 Nov 2009 at 5:39 pm 22.Severin said …

    The only species which somehow DEVELOPED morality during evolution is human race. All the characteristic (properties) of every creature has only one purpose: to keep transferring genes to next generation. It is, then, rational to assume that development of morality of human race has something to do with survival of this race. Modern societies are MUCH more moral than ancient societies, although modern man does not biologically differ from ancient (Egypt!) one at all, and much, much, much more moral than society of Pitekantropus or Lucy.

    I am coming back to my latest question: WHY GOD NEEDED US? WHY DID HE CREATE US?

    If he needed some toys to “play god” over, to have a sense of being a god, to “discipline a flock”, to rule them, to make them warship him with, or without free will, he could solve this problem in a much, much simpler way.
    Why should be a problem for an almighty god to create an army of humans with the same (existing) mental properties, with the same sensation of suffering (pain, mental sufferings), but without need to eat?
    He, then, would have no need to create billions of other species, which have nothing to do with humans and their “sins”, but suffer for billions of years as well.

  23. on 27 Nov 2009 at 10:01 pm 23.Vincent said …

    Severin, I love the way you think! you provide such compelling, logical analogies. you need to write a book on your thoughts! :-)

    Your question: “WHY GOD NEEDED US? WHY DID HE CREATE US?” is difficult to answer. I have always wandered why an all powerful being needed to be loved/obeyed/served/worshiped by something which at times, he so clearly seemed to despise (E.g the great flood (you can sugar coat it as much as you want, but if you drown and destroy the entire world, it is obvious how you feel about it!). From what I was tought at sunday school :-) is that humans, out of all creation, we are the only beings that can choose with our unique gift of free will to love god. All the angels that were with god in heaven before god made man were like robots, they just loved him and didnt have a choice in the matter. Man’s gift of love, given by free will was the most precious gift in the universe (and then apparently satan got jealous of god’s love for man and tried to defeat us, but lets not go there.) This is the story from our dilly sunday school teacher, so do not know how biblically correct it is, but if it is true, it would seem GOD MADE US BECAUSE HE NEEDS US TO LOVE HIM (Although the whole way in which he does it angers me, because it pretty much boils down to “if you do not love me with all your heart (even though I will not provide any real evidence that i exist, and i will even throw in a devil in the mix just to make things a bit more tricky for you) and if you do not do as I say, I will punish you eternally.

  24. on 28 Nov 2009 at 2:03 am 24.Biff said …

    Manufactured is man made. Created is God made. God is the only who can truly create something from nothing. Not mother nature. Manufactured human beings, lol well maybe one day.

    Whose morality are you referring to?

    God created us to worship Him with our lives. Simple really.

  25. on 28 Nov 2009 at 1:50 pm 25.Severin said …

    Biff:”God is the only who can truly create something from nothing.”
    Really? You just try to explain WHY would he (she? it?) do this? To have a “playground” for his cruelty? To be able to cruelly and sadistically punish all “disobedient”, including elephants suffering and dying from some elephant diseases.
    If elephants suffer, this is obviously “god’s plan” to make them stay on the “god’s way”. Or what?
    Behave yourself, elephants!

    Burebista:”God cannot do anything contrary to His character.”
    Yes, it is obvious! From Bible days untill today!
    If he existed, it would be better for him not to exist, with such a character. If he existed, I, and many others, would have a good target for deep hate, even thou hate is far of my nature (character).

    Burebista: “No, I have the Word of God. God tells me all we need to know”
    PLEASE tell me WHAT “Word of God”, where can I find it?
    Do you personally communicate with god? Please have in mind that “to communicate” does not mean your dreams, or your visions, but two-way conversation. So, do you COOMUNICATE with god? You say something, then he says something, etc.

    If not, PLEASE, shaw me any word of god, I am longing for to finally see it.

    Bible? Did you really read it? (I did, up to the last point)
    If you call THIS a word of god, poor you, and poor your god!

    I would never refer to Bible for anything, except if I would like to give a good example of a “Handbook of Hate”.

    So, if it is not Bible, what is the word of God, where to find it?

    Sorry for my English, which is not my native language, and I am self-taught (never learnt it in school). So, pls. anyone tell me what “lol” means.

  26. on 28 Nov 2009 at 8:26 pm 26.Burebista said …

    “would never refer to Bible for anything, except if I would like to give a good example of a “Handbook of Hate”.”

    Thats a shame Severin. The love of God expressed through the sacrifice of His own son at Calvary just for mankind. No man shows love like this that he would lay down his life for his brother. Go loves you and wants you belong to him. Read the book of Romans and experience His love.

  27. on 28 Nov 2009 at 11:06 pm 27.Severin said …

    “No man shows love like this that he would lay down his life for his brother.”

    Except several hundred thousand Americans which gave their lives for their bothers in the 2nd world war. Thosends of heroic self-sacrifices are documented, and millions are documented during the history of man kind.

    So, what is so very specific and heroic in self-sacrificing of Jesus?
    It was never historically proven, but even if it really happened – what? A sincere “bravo” would do! Warshiping for 2000 years is much too much!
    You can see it literally every day, that someone is risking and giving his life for other people. Not necessaryly for their relatives or friends, but for unknown people.

  28. on 29 Nov 2009 at 8:47 am 28.Severin said …

    Moreover, individual and collective self-sacrificing which icluded tortures and martyr deaths, for brother man, or brother nation, or brother man kind, were documented milleniums before times of Jesus.
    So he even was not the first one, and was not an example or historical model for anything what was not already seen.
    Bravo Jesus (if you existed), you was one among millions, and maybe you had good intentions, but somebody exploited your death for 2000 years to keep power and make money on account of poorly eaducated and superstitious people.

  29. on 29 Nov 2009 at 12:49 pm 29.Burebista said …

    Jesus death seems to be having an impact on you. The difference was that Jesus died for all mankind for the penalty of sin. No other man can do that since he was perfect and without sin. He also had all the power in heaven and earth available to Him in order not suffer such a death. Rather, he stayed the course.

    “I have come that you may have life and have it more abundantly”.

    “Unless your repent you will all likewise parish”

    Those are the words of Jesus.

  30. on 29 Nov 2009 at 4:02 pm 30.Vitta said …

    Severin,

    lol means “laugh out loud”. When someone writes this they are implying that they are physically reacting with a laugh wherever it is that they are writing from.

    In this blog it is often used condescendingly.

    I hope that helps.

  31. on 29 Nov 2009 at 7:40 pm 31.Biff said …

    Severin,

    God’s word does contain hate. HE provides a history of hate against Satan and sin. No doubt about it. It also provides a summary of God’s love through the death of Christ. Why? Start with the book of Romans and then John and find God’s plan. DOn’t listen to what others tell you about the Bible. THe majority of atheist do just that. I never hear them quote Romans oddly enough.

  32. on 29 Nov 2009 at 7:59 pm 32.chris said …

    Ok i get your point of view but, God can hate…the reason for that is hate is not good for us but for God its ok, dont make sense right but look at it this way.If a person robs you and hurts you would you forgive that person or hate that person…more than likely hate him why, because he did wrong on two things for no reason in your eyes and you will never forgive him. But in Gods point of view if this was to happen to him, then he would be mad only for one day and if asked for forgiveness from that person he would forgive if the robber truely ment it thats the differance in mans hate and Gods hate.

  33. on 29 Nov 2009 at 9:13 pm 33.chris said …

    To answer the question, why do we suffer… Did Christ not suffer yes did he sin no. As humans when sin even the best christain in the world sins so as christ suffered so shall the world. A good man by the name of Job was one who had strong faith yet God allowed the devil to take away and have him suffer why? To see how strong Jobs faith was, cruel yes but becase of Jobs faith in the Lord, Job was giving back everything 3x what he had because he knew everything was a gift from God and Job knew God did this for a reason. Now i ask who in todays times who can say thier faith is that strong and that they have patience of that magnitude (not) many if (any) faith is where it begains and where it ends my friends

  34. on 30 Nov 2009 at 8:27 am 34.Severin said …

    Thanks, Vitta!

    Again and again god’s lawyers are interpreting god’s words to me/us.
    Again and again they are explaining to me/us how god functions, what he feels, what he ment to tell when he told somethintg, does he love or hate, etc.
    I DID READ BIBLE! In my language, so no way that I misunderstood something.

    Ladies and gentlemen god’s lawyers: If god ordered masacres only because the poor people made golden calf (and he ordered many other masacres, including killing of children in cradles, I READ IT IN the BIBLE BY MY EYES)), than this good is a monster, and Bible is a book of hate, no matter how much “love” he put in some other parts of the book.
    The commander of concentration camp Auswitz declared on Court that he loved his wife and children, and his dog, by all his heart.
    Does it make him a gentle and honest man?

    At the very moment you try to EXPLAIN god’s words, and direct me to other, less cruel parts of this book, this book loses its credibility. Why should I trust YOY, when I saw by my eyes that god directly ordered killing?
    When the very same god (and Jesus and god are the same, aren’t they, or what?) in one prat of a book orders killing and baby masacrings, and in the other part propagues love, what to think about such a hypocrite? How to take such a book as consistant? How to TRUST it? WHAT to trust in such a confusion of masacre orders and love proclamations? Those are ALL words of god! Love and kill! Kill and love!
    Disgusting!
    Plase do not play god’s lawyers, he explained himself clerly in the “book of his words”.

  35. on 30 Nov 2009 at 8:32 am 35.Severin said …

    “To answer the question, why do we suffer… ”

    Please try to explain why elephants (spiders, zebras, cats, dogs, apes….) have to suffer.

  36. on 30 Nov 2009 at 10:14 am 36.Severin said …

    WHY GOD NEEDED US? WHY DID HE CREATE US?

    These questions were colloquial. I do not really believe any god made/created/manufactured us.
    I posed this question only to tease believers to try to answer it.
    The right answer is: he didn’t! Beacause he does not exist, and believers are in delusion. Too many fact in favour of natural evolution and no facts AT ALL supporting creatin theories.

    “God created us to worship Him with our lives. Simple really.”

    And disgusting! An all-loving, almighty creator, who DECLARES PROUDNESS AS MORTAL SIN, creates a flock to love him and to warship him, as the only reason!
    Phooey! If he was real, how could anyone believe such an inconsistent creature?

  37. on 30 Nov 2009 at 12:27 pm 37.Biff said …

    Severin you are so silly. God is love but he is also a God of judgement. His justice has been seen before and it will be seen again.

    Other creatures suffer just as we suffer because through man sin was brought into the world. The earth is now full of death and sin. Christ will return to make everything good once again.

    You claim you have read the Bible. If true, you must have spent all of your time in reading judgement and zero time reading grace and mercy. the real arrogance her might just be an individual who believes his morality is superior to Gods.

    God luck with all that but turn you life over to God while you can.

  38. on 30 Nov 2009 at 6:37 pm 38.AntiRoss said …

    My morality is superior to your god’s.
    No question about it. When I first read the bible as a believing, praying Christian that was what struck me the most. My moral sense is superior to not only the depraved Mr Pentateuch God, but to that of your supposed saviour as well. Jesus is DEFinitely a product of primitive narrative.
    This is what makes you guys sound so pathetic when you engage in your apologetics – trying to rationalize it all away. You’re just trumpeting platitudes that have no substance.
    And Biff, you sound like a battered woman – oh no, he really loves me, I deserved it, the kids and pets deserved it too…

  39. on 30 Nov 2009 at 9:00 pm 39.Boz said …

    AntiRoss

    What makes you superior? Because you say so. Please spare us ALL! The only thing superior about you is your ego! Down deep you know what you truly are when you are by yourself and it appears no one is looking.

  40. on 30 Nov 2009 at 10:45 pm 40.Severin said …

    Yes, I am silly, I admit it.
    I am silly beacause I am keeping discussion with people with blind eyes and blind mind. People who neglect questions and bypasses arguments. In my discusion I am trying to use comparisons, arguments, and questions.
    But I never get back any counter-argument or answer to my questions, beacause you are not able to answer them clearly and logically.

    Such people attack someone stating that he is superior to god , by „argument“: „Beacause you say so“, not seeing that their own „arguments“ are exactly the same:
    God exists, loves everybody, is omnipotent, etc, BECAUSE I SAY SO.

    Gentlemen god’s lawyers, please give us some evidences and arguments!

    Besides, try to answer several questions, just to educate us:

    Is Jesus god? Is there ANY doubt that Jesus = god? Any neglecting of this „fact“ is negation of chrisianity, which is MONOTHEISTIC religion. There is NO more than 1 (one) god, is there any doubt with this? So: god=Jesus=Holy Ghost.
    Consequently, the Old Testament is „a word“ of GOD, be it Father, Jesus, or Holy Ghost. How can you separate them?

    You are trying to pardon/excuse/remove Jesus from blood and terror of Old Testament, but it is impossible. If Old testament is „word of god“, than it is word of Jesus. If god ordered masacres, than Jesus ordered mascres. If god glorified slavory, Jesus did it as well.
    Where was Jesus at times when god terrorized man kind, according to Bible? He was THERE, and he WAS god. For some reason, he later only somehow separated from god (but NOT as another, competition god!!!) and took another name. I would say, if his task was to suffer for sins, most sins to be suffered for (punished) were his own sins: according to Bible, he DID order baby killings (god, thus Jesus). It WAS him! If you say now, no, he was not, you are not a christian, but a polytheist.

    Please, wash your eyes and your mind!

    Believe what you want, but quietly. Do not make yourself silly by imposing your beliefs to other people using illogical and contradictory “arguments”, and an old confused book as your only support.

  41. on 30 Nov 2009 at 11:12 pm 41.chris said …

    Im cracking up at the comments, facts are very important no doubt about it but, what makes the word amazing in its own theory is, how can something be writtin centuries ago but accurate to the t so far. Unlike science facts and other facts, has the holly bible changed what is stated (not once).Science facts and doctors facts change either year by year or decade by decade. One example pluto its a planet fact woops its a drawf planet which isnt a planet at all now. Facts can be fiction, but if you follow a fact, heres a fact anti-christ (fact) will be followed and with him world govrenment and his followers. What do you know world gorvenment is here, third temple here, non believers here, i love a good debate.

  42. on 01 Dec 2009 at 12:19 am 42.chris said …

    To answer your question Severin on why do animals suffer…. If i understand what your asking, it would be because 1) they are food, 2) people do cruel things for one reason (evil) devil notice the similarities, 3) animals are the only thing left pure, sin free, they kill for survival, alot of times humans kill for fun the hunt not for food but money why evil with evil comes sin with sin come devil. Example your mom tells you any thing you eat that taste good is useally bad for you, well in this case whats good (fun) for you is useally bad for you hope that helps

  43. on 01 Dec 2009 at 1:41 am 43.Biff said …

    Severin I appreciate you asking me to keep my beliefs to myself but I will pass. I will not be any more quieter about it than you are regarding your own.

    I think I answered all your questions. Let me cover a few more.

    1. There is One God manifested as Father/Son/Holy Spirit

    2. God did pass judgement a number of times in the OT. I have never denied that.
    3. There is evil in the world due to the sins of man.
    4. Yes, Jesus is God the Son.

  44. on 01 Dec 2009 at 6:09 am 44.Vitta said …

    Chris you mention ‘facts’. I just want to clarify one thing about the ‘facts’ of science. In science nothing can EVER be proven; things can only be disproven. This is key in the methodology of science. To this day ‘gravity’ has never been proven. It still remains just a theory, and in the wording of science it will always be a theory.

    If you see science as a changing set of ‘facts’ you are not far from the truth. Take for example what is going on right now in physics: there are two great (as in large) strains of thought (1)re: the theory of relativity (2) quantum physics. The first is Einstein’s and in layman’s terms it deals with the big picture; mostly dealing with space-time. The second deals with matter at the atomic level (the tiny picture).

    These two theories are key to our understanding of the universe (although the first has been corrected slightly and the intricacies of each are much too complicated to get into on this blog). The catch is that these two theories in effect cancel each other out; both can’t be right. Nonetheless they are the best we have to go by. As I sit here and write, physicists worldwide are trying to come up with the next great theory that answers it all. I believe it is only a matter of time.

    The beauty of science is that it does not hold all the answers, it doesn’t suggest that it does. It is always searching for answers. It is unbiased and has only one goal: the truth. The absolute truth. If the bible could answer these questions, such as the inner-workings of the natural world, there perhaps wouldn’t even be a place for science. But the bible doesn’t and for some including me, it is just not enough. It doesn’t hold the answers.

    The ‘facts’ will change as long as their are new discoveries being made. I know there are those who state that religion isn’t going anywhere. Well guess what… neither is science.

  45. on 01 Dec 2009 at 1:33 pm 45.Burebista said …

    “It is unbiased and has only one goal: the truth. The absolute truth.”

    Until it becomes politicized and then like everything else it becomes the interpretation of facts. Come to think of it, interpretation of the facts is what science is about now. Its not about truth.

    You take some sort of stance that God and science are somehow at odds. They are not. The more science uncovers the more is is revealing the majesty of the one who brought it all about. Darwin never imagined it was so complex and so well designed. Not a single aspect of science has ever contradicted God.

  46. on 01 Dec 2009 at 3:32 pm 46.chris said …

    Several verses in the new testament shed additional light on this perplexing question suffering.Hebrews12:10-11 tells us that sometimes God uses pain to discipline usand turn us away from doing wrong things.JAMES1:2-4 says that sometimes God uses pain to help us grow up.These trials test our faith and help us develop perseverance so that we”will be perfect and complete and will have everything(we) need.”So as strange as it may seem,many times we have to suffer before we can experience complete and full lives.Finally,apostle Paul moves us beyond the question of why and gives us an example of trust in God through the painand trials of life:”I have learnedthe secret of being happy at any time in everything that happens..I can do all things through Christ,because he gives me strenght(Philippians4:12,13).Today we still see many examples of”good”people who suffer.And although God knows whats in his peoples hearts, these types of trials allow them to discover-and to demonstrate to those watching-that God is worthy

  47. on 01 Dec 2009 at 4:46 pm 47.Severin said …

    “Darwin never imagined it was so complex and so well designed.”

    Neither did god. Otherwise we would have much more sofisticated Bible today. The primitivism of the Bible is clear evidence that it was written by barbarian people who new nothing about modern scientific discoveries. The almighty one should know that only 2000 years after he wrote (dictated?)it man kind will have much broader knowledges about their enviroment.
    So if he ordered to kill sinners by stoning, he should put a footnote: *by gun after 16th century.
    He just had no idea how the universe really works, and what will humans invent. Why? Because there is no god, and Bible is not his word, but a confused, contradictory and evil book, written by people interested only in power.
    To quote Vitta: Guess what: they succeded much more than they ever expected!

  48. on 01 Dec 2009 at 5:03 pm 48.chris said …

    Hello Vitta, i would like to comment on your reply to me, Everything you say is truth theres not doubt about it. Even though im christian i love science and im listening and watching and reading about it all the time but, the logic behind science is yes theory and being that its easy to see why what you see is believing and whats not is not..why you cant see God,in Mere Christianity,C.S. Lewis explains why: “If there was a controlling power outside the universe, it could not show itself to us as one of the facts inside the universe-no more than the architect of a house could actually be a wall or staircase or fireplace in the house.” Certainly, we can learn about God from his creation.But we can only”see” him through the eyes of faith, because he lives inside us.And when we reach heaven-where he lives-then we will see him face to face.How is that for something to look foward to?

  49. on 01 Dec 2009 at 7:27 pm 49.chris said …

    Hello again severin,To make a comment on your comment about “it is not Gods word” you mentioned that the word is of a men with power and ect…. But if true then , in the bible it reads of kings and men who were blessed by God to have what that had, then because of pride & egos the idea they became powerful without God he became non existencing. Now they were stripped of everything they had to a point and only then did they remember who got them there,but in todays times God lets us continue only for alittle while. Thats whats strange about the bible, you read one chapter, but it could be years long.

  50. on 01 Dec 2009 at 8:14 pm 50.Biff said …

    “The primitivism of the Bible is clear evidence that it was written by barbarian people who new nothing about modern scientific discoveries.”

    That is an interesting hypothesis. Do you have any examples? If have seen just the opposite. Imagine, over 25,000 manuscripts beautifully preserved to within 99.5% accuracy. Absolutely amazing! The next closest in the Iliad with a mere 630 or so.

  51. on 01 Dec 2009 at 9:14 pm 51.Vitta said …

    Burebista – I never said anything in my statement implying any type of relationship (or lack thereof) between science and God. To be honest though, I do think the two oppose each other. You said “Not a single aspect of science has ever contradicted God”. I must say I disagree.

    The layers of the earth tell a story. There is nothing existing in the material record to verify there ever was a worldwide flood. What we do know from the record is that 99.99…% of the species that have ever existed are now extinct. There is nothing in the bible that can explain that.

    I guess this is for you as well chris – it is not that I need to look into the eyes of God before I can believe that such a being exists… it’s that the word of God, meaning the bible, contradicts the reality of the natural world. The flood did not happen, there would be proof. It is lack of this proof that causes me to disbelieve.

  52. on 01 Dec 2009 at 10:25 pm 52.Debbie said …

    Could you tell me the point of all of this? If there is a God or not why are you trying to promote this? There is no reasoning, what are you trying to achieve by changing others minds? As for the articles and videos I really promote the idea of making them suitable for an adult audience. These articles are full of logical fallacies and anyone with a developed mind can see past them. If you really want to persuade others you need to have a better tactic. Just saying this is true and this is not, or normal people believe this wont prove anything. Oh and actually having legitimate examples would help as well. Religion is not a science, it cannot be proven wrong or right. So therefore it has no dealings with those of the scientific mind. It would be the same if a farmer tried to disprove the technique of a carpenter.

  53. on 02 Dec 2009 at 12:58 am 53.chris said …

    For vitta thats what makes christian religon so differant in that it is not fiction nor non fiction by the libary but, Abrat mountian is where alot of people think that the ark is “at the top” the only problem in getting there is everyone who has tried to climb to the top has never made it.Check it out, the only reason that makes sense is God must not want proof that hes here just faith or that the only proof should be his word in a book

  54. on 02 Dec 2009 at 4:05 am 54.Vitta said …

    Chris – it is not about finding ‘the ark’. If the entire world was flooded at some point, only a few thousand years ago, there would be a consistent layer of strata worldwide that would virtually lock the incident in time.

    Debbie – whether or not there is a god is one of the most contentious issues that faces the world today. Why is an open discussion about it a bad thing? I don’t presume that my comments will change anyone’s mind. Also, I am at peace with my beliefs and I highly doubt that anyone could change mine. But perhaps this site is not about people like me, or Christians equally comfortable with their beliefs. Not everyone is so sure. Maybe this site is helpful for those who aren’t so sure, for those who are undecided. It gives them questions to ponder over.

    I have to say Debbie, your metaphor regarding a farmer and a carpenter is ridiculous. It just isn’t comparable… way too simplistic. And I disagree with your point on the ‘provability’ of religion; but I’m sure you’ll still sleep well at night regardless of what I think.

  55. on 02 Dec 2009 at 4:09 am 55.Burebista said …

    What does a worldwide flood have to do with God? And in reality, there is evidence of a large flood many years back and it is also found in ancient writings all over the world.

    What is with all the talk of extinct species? Why should the Bible explain that? You are so illogical in your argument. The Bible doesn’t say anything about Vitta either.

  56. on 02 Dec 2009 at 4:21 am 56.Vitta said …

    What does a worldwide flood have to do with God???
    …. hmmm …. last time I checked it had something to do with a guy called Noah. Noah wasn’t just invloved in a “large flood”. The flood he witnessed covered the entire earth… or so goes the story…

    I believe the problem you have with my argument, Burebista, is that it is based on only logic; rather then faith. Your discomfort is noted.

  57. on 02 Dec 2009 at 4:39 am 57.chris said …

    Ok first off is this site about seeing points of view or jumping down each others throat? Im not trying to change minds at all its debating what is or isnt. I as a christian have a non believing friend problem is he dont like to talk about religon just science and facts. But it seems on here there is open minds,thats what makes this very interesting. Anyways if God let there be no more suffering then why do we punish our children for doing wrong. Imangine what this world would be like with no laws.

  58. on 02 Dec 2009 at 5:11 am 58.chris said …

    Burebista- that was funny what does a world wide flood have to do with God. Lol i read your comments you sound christian yet say that? The flood was to wash away sin thus (God)(flood)(rainbow). Thats the funny thing about the rainbow it means 3 things 1) reflection off the sun and rain. 2) Gods promise to never flood the wrold again 3) some how gays made it thier own. strange how what the rainbow stood for, is what gays use it for today . Thats crazy lol, ps i got a liz for a cuz so im not a gay basher shes cool

  59. on 02 Dec 2009 at 8:39 am 59.Severin said …

    “Do you have any examples?”
    Yes. Find a car in the Bible for me.

  60. on 02 Dec 2009 at 9:34 am 60.Severin said …

    „Could you tell me the point of all of this? If there is a God or not why are you trying to promote this?“

    I do not belive there is a god of any kind. Common sense, logic, scient reports, supported by my education, help me to understand that history of the Universe is quite different than „described“ in „holy books“, which, on the other hand, are THE ONLY SUPPORT to religions.
    I know that I am mortal, that I will die, and that there will be no spiritual remains of me when I die.
    How and why millions believe there is a god, I am not able to explain, although I have read some very logical and acceptable explanations.

    I am not an „agent“ of any organisation, and do not „preach“ atheism.

    What I lernt from history books, was that all religion were, at all times, promoters of hate and wars.
    Additionally, all religions were brakes for prosperity and development of science.
    There is no room here for examples, but please have in mind Giordano Bruno and Gallileo Gallilei.
    All religions promoted DEATH for heretics and non-believers through milleniums, and millions of innocent people were burnt and masacred only beacause they posed questions, or believed in „wrong“ god.

    So, there is point for me to promote atheism., which I feel personal.
    I do not live in USA, but recently I read a book written by an American economist, who claimed that you hardly can get a decent job there if you declare yourself as an atheist.

    It is similar in my country (a catholic one), maybe even more hypocritical. Nobody will kill you, but will make you feel as „black sheep“ if you become suspect that you do not believe in god. Of course, many things will be inaccessible for you, if you are suspected as an atheist.
    I am not able to be a hypocrite and pretend to be a believer.

    It is simple: If I succeed to persuade a believer that god is delusion, I (and human society) will have one less „braker“ on my back.

  61. on 02 Dec 2009 at 9:42 am 61.Severin said …

    “What does a worldwide flood have to do with God?”

    Nothing, except he ordered it to kill the entire human race for their “sins”.
    A god of love it was!

  62. on 02 Dec 2009 at 2:29 pm 62.Burebista said …

    Now I understand. You are not atheist….just anti-christian. I asked for proof science disproves God and all you have is “show me a car”. Yuz guyz are nothin but silly willies.

    Continue on…..

  63. on 02 Dec 2009 at 2:34 pm 63.Biff said …

    They think attacking the Bible proves there is no God. LOL, thats like by attacking the Illiad to prove there was no Homer.

  64. on 02 Dec 2009 at 2:44 pm 64.Severin said …

    “The flood was to wash away sin…”

    How can any reasonable human being accept as a fact that god put the “Big Flood” on Earth to punish sinners.
    If you accept this flood as a fact, and accept that god really had such dirty intentions, think about millions of children, including new born ones, who COULD NOT HAVE ANY SINS, but were killed by god. Think about animals on earth, whic died in this flood. Were they sinners too?
    If you accept that it was justified and acceptable to kill millions of men, women and children, and billions of animals to “wash away sin”, than what are you? A monster, just as your god is.
    Imagine a baby 1 month old, who can not yet see the difference between red and green, and is absolutely incapable to recognize “sin” from” “non-sin”, drowning in long lasting pain, having no chance even to
    pose the question “why”.

    If god was so cruel, why didn’t he chose to kill sinners only? Had he technical problems with it, or was he just a monster over all monsters?
    A god of love it was!
    Lucky we all he is not real!

  65. on 02 Dec 2009 at 2:48 pm 65.Severin said …

    “You are not atheist….just anti-christian”

    No, I am not! I am anti-religionist. And anti-stupidity.

  66. on 02 Dec 2009 at 3:26 pm 66.Severin said …

    Additionally: Logically it is really difficult to find proofs that somethind does not exist. I correctly admit it, and I am trying to give all possible arguments to decrease possibility of god’s existance,at least.
    How can I prove that there is no a teapot orbiting earth?

    In modern times it should not be so difficult to prove that god exists, if he really does.

    But all you are offering as a proof is an old book, without writer and without known origin, written in barbaric manner, full of contradictories and far of logic. Far of (christian) decency too, as it orders killing instead of mercy and love.

    Besides, many original, but different versions of biblical texts were found recently. So, if they were found in the time when the existing Bible was manufactured, maybe we would have quite different Bible today.

    So, please give me proofs of god’s existance.
    It should not be difficult. Without “proofs” from Bible, please! To use Bible as a proof for god’s existance is exactly the same as using the Odyssey to prove the existance of Mermaids or Cyclops. “It is written there, so they must exist”, is it an argument?

    Stephen Howking said (approximately): “I have proved how the universe began to exist. With this, I did not prove that god doesn’t exist, but I proved that we do not need him”

    I hope that you know who Mr. Hawking is.

  67. on 02 Dec 2009 at 3:30 pm 67.chris said …

    Its funny that the question is why does God allow suffering, but rather is God suffering himself? If we suffer everything suffers including nature. But what makes Gods wrath so much differant than our wrath is mercy. As most put it there is no God “yet” if there is such a person (he) is cruel and mean but, we destroy much much more that would be the truth

  68. on 02 Dec 2009 at 4:58 pm 68.Horatio said …

    “In modern times it should not be so difficult to prove that god exists, if he really does.”

    Now that is cute. Every generation believes they are the enlightened modern generation. We can barely get a manned ship to our nearest moon but somehow we should be able to prove, with science God exists. We can’t even determine if we are headed for a new ice age (1980) or global warming (2008). Please, spare us with with new enlightened age of the present. We are still primitives.

    I can’t even use science to prove my 1940 Harley Davidson EL was manufactured by Harley Davidson. I have no proof, it could have been manufactured in someone’s garage. Yikes, I better get out there!

  69. on 02 Dec 2009 at 5:03 pm 69.Horatio said …

    “I have proved how the universe began to exist.”

    Well please, tell us how the universe began Severin! I would love to hear this since we have about 100 Big Bang models with an immense number of assumptions and presuppositions. And please, don’t leave out how matter came into existence. This should be great!

  70. on 02 Dec 2009 at 6:00 pm 70.Severin said …

    “I have proved how the universe began to exist.”
    I didn’t, mr. Hawkin did, please ask him.

  71. on 02 Dec 2009 at 6:09 pm 71.Severin said …

    “…since we have about 100 Big Bang models with an immense number of assumptions and presuppositions.”

    This is a way how science functions.
    from “Earth is a table standing on elephant (turtle?) backs” which was a modern theory some 3000 years ago, to “Earth is a globe orbiting the sun”, today.

    I would prefere to have 100 theories about god’s existance, but nothing to see but an old book with 2000 years old nonsenses.

  72. on 02 Dec 2009 at 6:22 pm 72.Severin said …

    “Its funny that the question is why does God allow suffering, but rather is God suffering himself?”

    If any god suffered ever, why would his/their pain be relevant compared to sufferings of billions?
    Especially if millions of those billions suffered because of him/them: either he/they ordered their sufferings, or churches ordered tortures and killings in his/their name(s).

    Why would I cry for Hitler’s sufferings?

  73. on 02 Dec 2009 at 6:36 pm 73.Severin said …

    “But what makes Gods wrath so much differant than our wrath is mercy.”

    That is why he exterminated the human race in big flood?!
    That is why he killed people (including children) who made the golden calf? Etc, and many and many examples for further “etcs”. Beacause of his mercy?
    Merci for such a mercy!

  74. on 02 Dec 2009 at 7:01 pm 74.Vitta said …

    Biff – I don’t understand how disproving (or attacking) the bible doesn’t then disprove God. It is not God’s word?

    If there are (and there probably are) factual flaws in the Illiad, it does not lead to the conclusion that Homer never existed. Rather it points to a period in time when mankind was very superstitious, and the point in writing was not necessarily to write ‘history’. There is no reason to disbelieve Homer’s writing of the Illiad; in fact following his written accounts led to the discovery of Troy itself in the early twentieth century.

    You cannot compare that to the Bible nor the Old Testament (nor the Koran) on which the great (as in large) monotheistic religions of the world are based. Those were written by the hand of men but are purportedly the WORD of god.

  75. on 02 Dec 2009 at 7:03 pm 75.Severin said …

    “…but somehow we should be able to prove, with science God exists”

    Science theories are never finally proven, but are either broken (theory of earth standing on turtle’s back), or are going closer and closer to solution.

    Authors of theories are obligated to give SOME acceptable evidences, criticists are free to criticize them even without evidences. For example by posing “uncomfortable” questions. This is the way it functions in science.

    More and more and more evidences were given for big bang theory, for evolution theory, for theory of genes, and they are closer and closer to be at least more clear, more likly to be true.

    What evidences are EVER offered for theory of god’s existance? How was this theory upgraded during history, after the first trial with Bible? The “fact” that god(s) exist was FORCED by most religions by tortures and killings, but no new evidences were ever given to confirm it.

  76. on 02 Dec 2009 at 7:08 pm 76.Vitta said …

    I ask this to any religious person(s) who care to answer. If you do follow the bible, which is my understanding that you must, and you do thus believe in the flood… how can you deny that God not only allows suffering but may in fact be the cause of it?

    This question is not meant to offend. Also, reading many posts on this blog I understand it is the belief of many that it is man’s sin that causes suffering. But in the case of the flood, the act of the flood was God’s act and it would have caused the death of countless lives by drowning. A terrible death I would imagine.

    I am interested in your thoughts…

  77. on 02 Dec 2009 at 7:38 pm 77.Horatio said …

    “I have proved how the universe began to exist.”
    I didn’t, mr. Hawkin did, please ask him.”

    Just as I thought. Hawking (that is his real name) did not prove anything. He has a theory Severin. LOL Geez, you guys just claim anything as fact.

    His theory on black holes was recently proven to be incorrect. Science is not about truth, it is about theories which are often proven to be false. Science is not capable of proving the one who put it scientific laws into motion.

  78. on 02 Dec 2009 at 10:31 pm 78.Severin said …

    “His theory on black holes was recently proven to be incorrect.”

    Let me agre with you, although I think this theory is not quite disaproved, but only addapted. Black holes do exist, only their physics do not fit completely with existing mathematics.

    The theory of earth standing on turtle back was also disaproved, so what? Another theory, closer to reality, maybe not completely correct, came to replace to “turtle” theory. And mathematics sourced from this new, non-turtle theory, works, at least in a part of reality. Newton’s theory is disaproved, but within the possibilities of science of that times to find evidences, it was an excellent theory, and even today it fits in many, not all cases, with physics. You can still calculate many things today with Newton only, without Einstein.

    Einstein made mistakes, theory of relativity does not fit to Plank’s theory, etc, but we USE their equations for both theoretical and practical calculation, which DO FUNCTION at least partially. How would we have the GPS system if all those theories were totally incorrect? Tthey are not. They work in many cases.

    If anyone can the blah blah of Bible call a theory, O.K., but it is obviously disaproved, and even the Pope does not take the Bible verses as evidences for anything.

    Now, where can I find a newer, more modern theory about god, which could be studied, and, as any other theory, tried to be aproved or disaproved.

    No believer is refering to anything else but Bible.

    What I am doing is not fughting a (non-existing) theory of god. I am fighting superstition.

    I would do the same if Mr. Hawkins proclamed that black holes were the marmelade jars of extraterestrians.

  79. on 03 Dec 2009 at 11:20 am 79.DINOMITE said …

    I would like to say that you people have NO IDEA ABOUT WHAT GOD IS….you say that God allows suffering?? NO YOU, ME, and this whole world allows suffering…..WE have the decision to make to cure this world from desease…but everone is so consumed on their own wants and needs….amputations is a DNA affected result….not some freak accident that God has planned…An there are many people in this world who judge those who are not as attracting…have dissabilities…and are just different..etc(the so called freaks) God creates these factors to decide the soul or outcome of those around them…..who are fortunate enough to be beautiful…smart…rich…etc ..and believe me these people with disabilities could possibly veiw the world through eyes that me and all of you here on this site would not understand and maybe even be jealous of…Who are you to Question him…YOU ARE NOTHING COMPARED TO HIM….AND PRAYERS ARE ANSWERED WISE GUY WHO WROTE THE PROOFS….your just blind and cant see them….do you really think Gods gonna waste his time on your damm coin….he’ll look at giving you health…making you humble….pray for your friends…your enemies…your family…and have NO PERSONAL GAIN FOR WHAT YOU PRAY ABOUT….ILL SHOW YOU A MIRACLE…WAKE UP…..FORGET RELIGION ITS HUMAN BASED…GOD NEVER DEFINED WHAT HE LOOKS LIKE WHO HE IS….OR WHAT TO CALL HIM,,,OR EVEN HOW TO PRAY….WE JUST ASK AND HE’S THERE EVERYWHERE….OHHH and on a last note remember that there anre “TWO” deciding forces in all decisions and outcomes…the good and the bad…that means “TWO” powers fighting for control……THE SUPPOSED “Devil” makes a pregnant woman smoke and kill herself day in and day out..then she wounders why her son has disabilities….WE have plagued our bodies with chemicals…THAT WE CREATED and eventually all these substances have an affect on our DNA motabolisim…resporatory system…so on…so..on…i can write forever….but its worthless….yopu are only human….me im eternal because of the way i look at the world……you need to wake up…want me to prove you wrong everytime you write an article….because I CAN…AND I HAVE STORIES THAT QWOULD MAKE YOU BELIVE…..AMATURES!!!

  80. on 03 Dec 2009 at 2:32 pm 80.chris said …

    Ok the ark story is simple, God told Noah what to do so he did it and gave everybody a chance to come aboard but did not beg them. And yes babies were left behind because there parents were dumb not to listen and for that God didnt kill the babies there parents did who were sinners and didnt listen, Oh and the animals dont have souls so he brought 2 of all of them.God ask one time on most everything and if you dont listen then God does not like to repeat his self to smart humans were not dumb and he knows that. There for things happen for a reason and yet we may never know why. Somethings are just better left unsaid.

  81. on 04 Dec 2009 at 2:11 am 81.Vitta said …

    Okay chris, your response does provide clarification. I still can’t believe it happened though because there is no proof of a worldwide flood. I guess this is where our beliefs are irrevocably opposed.

  82. on 04 Dec 2009 at 2:16 pm 82.chris said …

    Vitta…. i agree im not tring to convince or change minds. I enjoy a converstion on the way people think, as well as to see all points of views. My way of thinking is no more wrong than yours, regardless of whos right or wrong the out come will be the same death. Oh by the way as a christian let me say this the holly bible does say this( i would rather you to have never of known me than to have known me and leave me) ~Jesus~ With that being said you are still ahead of alot of christians in that aspect of truth in my opinon.

  83. on 04 Dec 2009 at 10:23 pm 83.Severin said …

    “…so he did it and gave everybody a chance to come aboard….”

    Either you did not read Bible, or you are trying to fake the story!

    God SPECIFICALLY told ONLY Noah to bring his family and a pair of each animal sort. He DID NOT gave any chance to anyone else. He deliberately exterminated the rest of human race, including babies.

    Either the story is completely fake, because there is no god, and somebody invented a “horror story”, or there is god who is baby killer and monster.
    No alternative.

  84. on 04 Dec 2009 at 10:49 pm 84.Severin said …

    1 And Jehovah said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
    4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living thing that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the ground.
    21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both birds, and cattle, and beasts, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
    Etc, I’ve read the rest, and didn’t see god gave chance to anybody except Noah and his family.

    No mercy for babies!

  85. on 05 Dec 2009 at 6:43 am 85.chris said …

    Severin… It seems your the only one who actually checks out the truth. Ive read the whole bible and your right about everything you said except one? You made an assumption that God kills or killed babies now the same could be said that God didnt kill them(Genesis 6:4, in those days, and even afterwards,when the eivl beings from the spirit world were sexually involved with human women,their (children) became giants, of whom so many legends are told). Now it dosent speak that there was or was not babies and the only mention of children was also included with giants so kids probably werent kids after all. There for that just leaves animals and they dont have souls but God did kill them but made sure to have a pair of each one to reproduce the ones lost. So really the only thing lost was evil and animals without a soul. Matthew 10:31 (you are worth more than many sparrows). So if God sees us worth more than animals there must be a reason. Oh and giants are found in deuteronomy but look at 3:11? another fact.

  86. on 05 Dec 2009 at 1:38 pm 86.Burebista said …

    There we go again. We don’t hold the parents accountable, blame God, the schools, etc. Noah warned the people for years to repent and turn from their wicked ways. They ignored his warnings. The parents are the fault in being swept away, not God.

    Not much has changed. Nobody wants to be accountable for their actions.

  87. on 05 Dec 2009 at 8:30 pm 87.chris said …

    Suffering and punishment go hand in hand, God doesnt have to punish us,but he punishes us because he loves us. How does this work? Well, imagine what your life would be like if you couldnt feel physical pain. That sounds great at first,but what would happen if you inadvertently put your hand on a hot barbeque grill? The searing heat would begin scrching its way into the soft flesh of your hand. By the time the stench of burning flesh reached your nose, telling you that something was wrong, with your hand would be permanently damaged. Fortunately, God gave us the physical pain to warn us of danger. Sin is like a red-hot burner, and Gods punishment is pain thats designed to send our hand flying away from it. Throughout the Old Testament, we see God punishing the Israelites again and again-not because he enjoyed it,but because he wanted them to pull backfrom the sin and return to him. God sent the ISraelites into babylonian exile for 70 years, a painful action that was intended to help them see how far they….

  88. on 06 Dec 2009 at 4:21 am 88.chris said …

    Continued….had wandered from him. This painful experience was all part of Gods ultimate plan for his children:”For i know the plans i have for you…plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and i will listen to you”. God punishes us because he loves us and wants the very best for us.Pretty simple,isnt it?

  89. on 06 Dec 2009 at 4:59 am 89.teej said …

    see a scriptural explanation on my blog at http://establishedinone.blogspot.com/2009/11/why-does-god-allow-evil-and-suffering.html

  90. on 06 Dec 2009 at 12:21 pm 90.Severin said …

    Refering to 87. Chris:

    Were only Nephilims on the Earth at that time, or were there also some ordinary people (except Noah and his family)? According to your explanation, there WERE NO HUMANS (except Noah) on the Earth.

    If only Nephilims were there, something wery wrong happened with his creation, and humans (which did not even exist any more!) could absolutely have no responsibility for it. If there were normal people there, including their children, than god was a monster.

    Why the mighty god, who created the universe from nothing in seven days (why not in 7 minutes, or 7 nanoseconds, by the way?), had to complicate so much. His word should be enought to punish the SINNERS ONLY, with or without suffering.
    He could only say/think: “Die in pain”, possibly specifying sufferings the sinners have to feel before dying, and the time they have to suffer.

    Besids, why did he created nations which lived at that times (some 5-7000 years ago), in China, both Americas, Australia, Micronesia, etc., who never herad about Bible and Jesus. Were they punished too by big flood?
    What a flood!

    If animals have no soul, there is no doubt that they do suffer. Why he chosed to kill them all, if a single word of him could make a good selection.

    No logic, wherever you look! Either god is unlogical monster, or the Bible is not his word, but a (bad) horror story made by men.

    By the way, pls. see what “Nephilim” really means!
    How did they come at scene at all, in he Bible? Where from? From this one (or 2) nonsense and roothless sentances you can hardly even find in Bible? Without any previous or further explanation!

  91. on 06 Dec 2009 at 12:31 pm 91.Severin said …

    “Not much has changed.”

    So you admit that even the big flood did not make changes in human behaviour?
    Shouldn’t the mighty one know that, and take some other, more efficient measures to behave his creatures?

    This is a very good indirect evidence that there is no god! He exterminate the whole human race to make the rest of humans (Noah’s succesors) behave according to his “laws”, but they did not obey, did they? So, either he did it very, very wrong, or he did not do it at all, but human race, as the rest of living beings, continued to develop according to NATURE laws.

    Are we to expect another big flood soon?

  92. on 06 Dec 2009 at 12:40 pm 92.Severin said …

    “God punishes us because he loves us and wants the very best for us.Pretty simple,isnt it?”

    Simple, but cruel and illogocal. If god existed, all what I would ask from him would be: please, do not love me any more! Your love is lethal!

  93. on 06 Dec 2009 at 12:45 pm 93.Severin said …

    “Fortunately, God gave us the physical pain to warn us of danger.”

    But whatever he did to human race imposing humans a lot of suffering (according to Bible and history), neither physical nor emotional pain DID NOT make the human race to obey him, anyway. So, a miss, again!

  94. on 06 Dec 2009 at 12:46 pm 94.Severin said …

    Sorry: … either …. or…DID NOT…

  95. on 06 Dec 2009 at 7:17 pm 95.chris said …

    Nephilim=(the etymology of the hebrew word),meaning the fallen one. But there is only one fallen one and that is Satan. There were humans but all sinners except Noah and his family. If you dont listen to God in that time then you suffered the ultimate punishment.See this is where so many people lose what the words in the bible mean. They then as well as most now choose to believe what we want, not what God ask or comands from us- (Proverbs 3:5) Metaphorically speaking, if a father raises his son to live his way growning up,when the son reaches around 13 years and up he starts thinking he knows best for a number of reasons. Mainly because hes lived life in his eyes long enough to know that he is right in more than his fathers eyes. If you tell him you know best he may listen but not enough to follow what you want. There for that is the same way as us with God he says do this but we think we know better by what weve learned.

  96. on 06 Dec 2009 at 9:09 pm 96.chris said …

    Here is the best way to answer your question to basicaly why the flood and not some other way to punish for peoples sin. In this it will also answer a lot of other questions you might have. Research Exodus 19-20 then 32-34.

  97. on 06 Dec 2009 at 10:40 pm 97.Severin said …

    Chris, there is no longer any use of discussion with you, sorry.

    You are permanently addressing me to Bible, but when I address you to the same book, to shaw you monstrous, illogical, unmodern, confused “laws” and orders of god himself, you have no answers.

    Among many other cruel/sadistic orders, there is clearly written in Bible that one who works on Sabbath must be stoned to death.

    If such “law(s)” and orders were changed, please tell me WHO changed them, and where is it written. I have no information that god revised the Bible.
    Again: if it was not revised by god himself, such an ugly book could be only written by primitive men, which is obviously th case.

    Please spare me of YOUR interpretations of Bible! Why should I believe you more than the original “word of god”?

  98. on 08 Mar 2010 at 2:29 am 98.CL said …

    I am a Christian but I have to question my faith. Mainly because of the suffering I am under. God’s Word tells me in the Bible “he works all things together for the good of those who believe…” blah,blah. The pat answer ‘we live in a fallen world’. So, God is either unable or unwilling to do anything about suffering and atrocities. As a 4 year old innocent child is raped and then stangled by a molester He see’s that and I guess He say “oh it will work good in the parents life”. If He is an ll seeing/knowing God He let that little child be born KNOWING this would happen to her. What’s the point ? Another pat answer, “Jesus suffered too so He understands” . Gee what comfort. And the millions of Jews that were starved to death, burnt up in ovens, etc. and those were His people. So I guess thats what they get for rebellion ? Gee that ought to draw them to Him alright. Not. He in essence I loved you so much I had to teach you a lesson by letting Satans boys the Nazi’s rip your skin off. “That” is justice ? And love ?
    I used to think God heard my prayers and would work in my life, now I’m so sure anymore. If he didn’t help the 4 year old innocent child who cried out to Him as she was being strangledwhat makes me think He will listen to me ?

  99. on 08 Mar 2010 at 2:34 am 99.CL said …

    AND for those of you who God “punishes” us because He loves, one has to ask ..the gospel says that JESUS was “punished” on the Cross for us and our sins. Was His atonement/death not sufficient ? We still have to get punished ? y saying so you making void His sacrifice. Either His atonement paid the price or didn’t. And no I don’t believe in “purgatory” either !

  100. on 08 Mar 2010 at 3:04 am 100.Moss said …

    So you want God to be a puppet-master and push all of his creation around like Chess pieces? That actually makes even less sense. Whats the point?

    You blame God for not “stopping” the monsters but you live among the monsters (men) who perform the horrid acts. Why don’t they stop themselves? Why didn’t other men stop them? (been to NY) Why do you blame God? Why not blame the man’s parents?

    God never promised Christians would not suffer in this world. He actually promised just the opposite. Christians dies all over the world for their faith. If you are looking for the “easy” life then being a Christian wasn’t the answer for easy. Everyone of His disciples died a martyrs death except John.

    If you want the key to eternal life and eternal joy you are on the right path.

  101. on 08 Mar 2010 at 9:30 am 101.Severin said …

    Moss 100
    “Why don’t they stop themselves? Why didn’t other men stop them?”

    What would be the purpose of god? What is he doing?
    He „rules“, but let people do what they want. He promises but never grants. He „has plans“ for us, yet each man/woman is responsible for him/herself and can do what he wants.
    God’s palsn and free will are incompatible!
    Either humans are responsible, or god is.
    In the first case we do not need him.
    In the latter case we are all irresponsible robots, as EVERYTHING is god’s will, so why bothering whatever happens?
    Why do we need such an illiogical god that does not fit anywhere in real life?

  102. on 08 Mar 2010 at 2:31 pm 102.3D said …

    “So you want God to be a puppet-master and push all of his creation around like Chess pieces? That actually makes even less sense. Whats the point?”

    Exactly, what’s the point if God doesn’t interfere in human activities? Now you’re getting to the crux of the idea why God makes no sense. Either he’s an evil monster that lets bad things happen, and created the world in such a way that they would happen, or he’s incompetent and powerless to change anything. I’m sure if a story cropped up about a child saving people from a burning building, most Christians would say God sent the child. God doesn’t seem to mind playing chess with humans as pieces, when he can be credited for something good. But when it’s child rape or some other horrific event, God doesn’t interfere!

    The only solution to this dilemma is that God is a made up fairy tale, and a fairly simple childish one at that. “God created the world, and punishes bad people and rewards the good people.” (Except when bad things happen to good people and vice versa, then it’s “God is mysterious and doesn’t play chess with people.”)

    Once you look through this lens of God as an imaginary creation from the fevered brains of barbaric idiots from the Middle East, life makes a lot more sense.

    “You blame God for not “stopping” the monsters but you live among the monsters (men) who perform the horrid acts. Why don’t they stop themselves? Why didn’t other men stop them? (been to NY) Why do you blame God? Why not blame the man’s parents?”

    If God doesn’t do anything, why do people pray?

  103. on 08 Mar 2010 at 4:06 pm 103.Moss said …

    “Exactly, what’s the point if God doesn’t interfere in human activities?”

    So is this what you do (or plan to do) with your own children? Force their hand in every activity and force them to do your will? You wont get love, only fear and resentment.

    “The only solution to this dilemma is that God is a made up fairy tale, and a fairly simple childish one at that.”

    So you can back this up? Suppose you are wrong? Maybe the solution is for you to seek to understand His plan. Everything taking place is already laid out in Scripture.

    “If God doesn’t do anything, why do people pray?”

    God does more than you or i can imagine. I have seen the lives of hundreds of individuals radically changed in an instant. Mine included. Drunken no count drug addicts changed into loving fathers and husbands. God works but he forces no man to follow him or His commandments. Their is nothing like witnessing the salvation of a hell-bound man or woman. I pray you will accept Him as well.

  104. on 08 Mar 2010 at 9:38 pm 104.Severin said …

    100 Moss
    “So you want God to be a puppet-master and push all of his creation around like Chess pieces?”
    103 Moss
    “Maybe the solution is for you to seek to understand His plan. Everything taking place is already laid out in Scripture.”

    What is this? One and the same person claims 2 oposite and contradictory things:
    1. God is not a puppet master (so he is not ruling our deeds, and we can not expects him to push us around)
    2. God has a plan for us, and everythng is written (programmed) by him, so he IS pushing us around as puppets, according to this plan

    Please make your choice before you bother us with your dilemmas. It is YOU who has to decide what of the 2 is right, not we. We solved elements of logics in the kindergrten: no claim can be „true“ and „non-true“ at the same time, and 2 contradictory claims can not be both true.

  105. on 08 Mar 2010 at 10:24 pm 105.Rostam said …

    Good analogy with the parent-child relationship. What decent parent wants children who only do what is right because they are forced to do so. Who wants children who only love them because they are forced to. People have some strange observations about God.

  106. on 09 Mar 2010 at 11:20 am 106.Severin said …

    105 Rostam
    “People have some strange observations about God.”

    Yes, such as god is our father!

  107. on 10 Mar 2010 at 4:04 am 107.3D said …

    Moss wrote:

    “So is this what you do (or plan to do) with your own children? Force their hand in every activity and force them to do your will? You wont get love, only fear and resentment.”

    No, I will not force them to do my will. But if I see them about to be hit by a car, I will pull them out of the way, and if I see someone trying to molest or kidnap them, I will damn sure stop it from happening.

    God won’t.

    And yet, you think God is a good father even though he allows his children to be molested with full knowledge of it. If a person allowed that to happen, you would (rightly) want them to be locked up, but when God does it, you applaud it. Why?

  108. on 12 Aug 2012 at 1:44 am 108.Chimin' in said …

    Just because we can’t prove something with modern science doesn’t mean it isn’t so. Human beings are not all-powerful, all-knowing beings. There is probably a PLETHORA of natural laws and states of matter that we will NEVER know about. It’s no different than explaining a rainbow to a dog—he has not capacity to see/comprehend the rainbow. Likewise, there is indubitably gads of stuff in our universe that we will never even know about.

    Quite possibly, one of those things beyond our comprehension to prove is God.

    One thing I do know exists are evil forces. I was a HUGE skeptic of God and other stuff you likely deem “hocus pocus” but get up close and personal with demonic spirits and you will change your mind entirely.

  109. on 12 Aug 2012 at 3:12 am 109.Anonymous said …

    Pro-tip. People who claim to have been “Huge skeptics” who changed their mind whilst also telling you that there is no proof of whatever it is that they know believe, are living a world of confusion and delusion.

    You need help. Lots of it.

  110. on 12 Aug 2012 at 3:47 am 110.alex said …

    I know what you mean, Chimin. Me and you are alike. We both believe in Zeus. These atheists think they’re so smart. One day Zeus is going to answer my prayer and deliver one nasty thunderbolt up somebody’s ass. Just you wait.

    I believe in an evil force too. Mine lives in my plumbing. Every once in a while, it makes this scary banging sound and to make it stop, I pray and then when I wash my hands, the evil stops. Now, explain that, mister smarty pants atheist.

  111. on 17 Jan 2013 at 10:01 pm 111.anon said …

    from goggle: 110 Responses to “Why does God allow suffering?” … A minor, brief pain is the price the child pays for a healthier life later. …. This god that demands the sacrifice of innocent animals, demands the death of something to atone …WOW! A MINOR, BRIEF PAIN IS THE PRICE THE CHILD PAYS! WOW. That’s crazy! There is no way I could turn my life over to a god that allows innocent people, children and animals suffer and die just to prove a POINT-that we are sinners! Aand Adam and Eve causing all this fall from grace! That’s a good story. WOW. How can you sleep. And don’t say because you are SAVED BY the BLOOD of Jesus. Crucifying Jesus was cruel right there and GOD SENT JESUS HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON. Why! Why did a good God make that decision? Why did all that killing and animal sacrifice happen in the Bible. Sometimes I think that the Bible is just a record of the cruelty that people like to read about and say to themselves…I’m glad I’m not them. Well, nothing has changed. This world is evil that’s for sure. The exsistance of an all loving and all powerful who CARES about each and every one of us is just a good story to tell people so they believe that there will be an afterlife. I believe that this is the hell we all hear about. And there is no heaven. Just this.

  112. on 18 Jan 2013 at 12:12 am 112.Ian said …

    Research is now being done on the brain and there are indicators that man is hardwired to believe in god. Those who do not suffer from a cognitive defect. That seems quite plausible.

  113. on 18 Jan 2013 at 12:30 am 113.MrQ said …

    Ian

    man is hardwired to believe in god

    I can believe that. Once intelligence and self-awareness began to evolve with the human apes, questions started to be asked. Why did that volcano erupt? It’s god. Why did we have a drought? Answer: god, let’s sacrifice some virgins. Why didn’t I get that promotion/ win the lottery? I must have pissed off god. Will our plan succeed and kill the enemy? Allah Akbar.

  114. on 18 Jan 2013 at 12:45 am 114.alex said …

    “Research is now being done on the brain and there are indicators that man is hardwired to believe in god. Those who do not suffer from a cognitive defect. ”

    atheist wild goose chase, yet again. ya think them neanderthals believed in your yet to be announced thousand years later bullshit god?

    why is it that i’ve never met uneducated, trailer trash atheist?

    why do i care? because another one of them motherfuckers knocked on my door trying to spread the word.

  115. on 18 Jan 2013 at 1:54 am 115.Anonymous said …

    Alex, you should ignore the Ian troll.

    He’s another one of those that posts then runs away so that he doesn’t have to face the comments that challenge his inconsequential ramblings.

  116. on 18 Jan 2013 at 2:14 am 116.Lou(DFW) said …

    112.Ian said …

    “Research is now being done on the brain and there are indicators that man is hardwired to believe in god.”

    LOL! So how is that evidence that god actually exists? Belief is not reality.

    “Those who do not suffer from a cognitive defect.”

    Says you.

    “That seems quite plausible.”

    Nobody cares what “seems quite plausible” to you. We only care what you can prove. Where is your evidence for your imaginary god?

  117. on 18 Jan 2013 at 12:10 pm 117.Lou(DFW) said …

    112.Ian said …

    “Research is now being done on the brain and there are indicators that man is hardwired to believe in god.”

    http://tinyurl.com/a9c8lmy

    “That seems quite plausible.”

  118. on 18 Jan 2013 at 2:48 pm 118.A said …

    “why is it that i’ve never met uneducated, trailer trash atheist?”

    alex, Pick up the mirror, hold in front of face, bingo! there he is!!!

    Sorry alex, I had to. LOL!!!

    Enjoy your Airstream.

    Ian, I think you are referring to the God gene. A number of good reads on the research. The designer would of course include such programming.

  119. on 18 Jan 2013 at 3:08 pm 119.Lou(DFW) said …

    118.ASS said …

    “Ian, I think you are referring to the God gene. A number of good reads on the research.”

    All of you are avoiding the god-gene elephant – the same scientists who suggest that it exists say it’s a product of EVOLUTION.

    “The designer would of course include such programming.”

    Then he’s obviously an incompetent programmer.

  120. on 18 Jan 2013 at 3:10 pm 120.Lou(DFW) said …

    118.ASS said …

    “Sorry alex, I had to. LOL!!!”

    Of course you did, you have no self-control over exposing your juvenile sense of humor.

  121. on 18 Jan 2013 at 4:02 pm 121.alex said …

    “Sorry alex, I had to. LOL!!!”

    that was pretty good.

  122. on 18 Jan 2013 at 4:23 pm 122.Anonymous said …

    Now about that absolute Christian Morality? Where did “A” say we could find this document?

  123. on 18 Jan 2013 at 4:42 pm 123.Lou(DFW) said …

    122.Anonymous said …

    “Now about that absolute Christian Morality? Where did “A” say we could find this document?”

    From the same place he gets everything else – out of his ass.

  124. on 18 Jan 2013 at 8:29 pm 124.DPK said …

    117.A said …

    “Ian, I think you are referring to the God gene. A number of good reads on the research. The designer would of course include such programming.”

    If he were going to all that trouble, wouldn’t be program people to at least all believe in the SAME god, rather than the mis-mash of competing gods we have historically had? After all, in relation to the lifespan of the human genome, Christianity isn’t even a tick on the clock. You guys will really grasp at ANYTHING to try and make your delusions look respectable, won’t you? Sad.

  125. on 18 Jan 2013 at 8:50 pm 125.Anonymous said …

    He’s playing post-and-run, it’s another attempt at a diversion.

    Look back, most often you’ll see that the Ian character doesn’t take part in conversations – he’s simply a straight-man for use by the sock-puppets.

  126. on 18 Jan 2013 at 9:09 pm 126.Severin said …

    112 Ian
    “Research is now being done on the brain and there are indicators that man is hardwired to believe in god. Those who do not suffer from a cognitive defect.”

    You are not well informed, or, maybe, you deliberately missinterpret what you have read.
    Put in your searching machine “believing in god and genetics”, and read many articles that deal with religion being genetically predestined in history of human beings, as everythin did: as one of many tools of survival.
    Causes of inclining to religions being “built in” human genes were different, and we certainly do not know all of them, but at least three of them sound logic:
    - infant credulity
    - cohesiveness in the competition against other groups
    - avoiding

  127. on 18 Jan 2013 at 9:20 pm 127.Severin said …

    Sorry, here is my sequence:
    - avoiding of Type II ( a false negative) error (not to be someone’s lunch)

    Google: “believing in god and genetics” and enjoy in reading many wonderful articles about how religins “get in” our genes.

    For example:
    http://trueslant.com/michaelshermer/2010/04/16/why-we-are-hardwired-for-belief-in-god/ ,

    http://www.onenesspentecostal.com/godgene.htm

    http://magazine.nd.edu/news/10465-the-genetics-of-belief/

    etc.

    The “god gene” does not prove existence of god, but DOES explain human inclination to religions, and, of course, it perfectly explains tens of thousands of etremely different gods invented by human beings: human beings generally inclined to believe in gods, but diferences in their cultures made them inventing very, very diferent gods (fairies, Santas, ghoasts, lepprechauns, mermaids, …).

  128. on 18 Jan 2013 at 9:23 pm 128.Severin said …

    For Burebista, A, and other liars and frauds posting here:

    This is my opinion up there, not a claim, and I gave my best explanation for it, without pretending to be right. For detailed explanation read the suggested articles yourself.

    Now you give us some evidences for your CLAIM that god exists.

  129. on 19 Jan 2013 at 12:26 am 129.A said …

    As Thelma would comment $everin:

    “Nobody cares about your opinion, only what you can prove”

    In the event you don’t like that Sev, take it up with Thelma-Lou. :)

    Maybe the spider can help you…..whatever

  130. on 19 Jan 2013 at 5:11 am 130.Anonymous said …

    Severin, your explanation can be reduced without losing anything to the following.

    In the past humans, lacking experience and education, substituted the explanation of “magic” for events beyond their understanding, particularly when driven by fear.

    Educated humans have progressed past magical explanations, but lesser-educated individuals cling to fear-based reasoning, substituting the euphemism of “gods”.

  131. on 19 Jan 2013 at 2:25 pm 131.Lou (DFW) said …

    129.ASS said …

    “As Thelma would comment $everin:”

    ASS, you dare claim to know what I would comment, but you conveniently omitted what I most often comment here, and it’s always in reply to you and your ilk:

    Where is your evidence for your imaginary god, evidence that you NEVER, EVER provide? Fraud.

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