That not an reason, that is an opinion. We murder death row inmates, babies and terrorist. apparently it is not wrong.

“An atheist knows murder is wrong, but a theist is confused”

One word, China. Atheist practice murder daily.

“Actually, all sperms are potential babies”

That is stupid. All eggs are potential babies but we eat them! Sperm is fertilizer. Without an egg, they are fertilizer without soil.

“Some say” isn’t an argument. Some also say that we shouldn’t prosecute”

How about partial-birth abortion is LEGAL. Is that now an argument 3?

“There are fewer state-sanctioned executions than 5,000 years ago”

So where is the proof? Just more opinion? I doubt you are correct. Many more people on earth than 5K years ago and they didn’t practice partial-birth abortions which is also state sanctioned murder. Those horrible monsters!

Yes, if the human being is a serial killer why is it wrong?

Because it’s wrong to murder. More so if a governmental body sanctions it, because then they send the mixed message that killing is OK, but only when we do it.

Because murder is wrong. It’s wrong when the serial killer does it and it’s wrong to murder the serial killer. Period. The value judgment of the person’s actions is irrelevant; murder is wrong.

An atheist knows murder is wrong, but a theist is confused, because the Bible says sometimes it’s wrong, and other times it’s great.

Well that is the key question is it not? This “certain time” is the question. Hardly a Kleenex full of snot as you so crudely call this life in formation. I don’t think your snot is on the same path.

I said “Kleenex full of ejaculate” though, not snot — ejaculate meaning sperm, not snot.

So, by your own definition, a sperm definitely could be “on the same path” to becoming a child. So does that mean you’re against any spilling of sperm that doesn’t make a baby?

Actually, all sperms are potential babies, and 99.99999999999999999% of them “die” even when one sperm fertilizes the egg. Why aren’t you against this horrible, 100,000-times-the-Holocaust-level murdering of potential babies?

I’ll tell you why, because you have enough common sense to know that a sperm is not alive, it’s just a little cell without thoughts or feelings that does its job, or falls by the wayside.

An early term fetus is no different and no more alive than a sperm, except that, if you stick it under a microscope, it looks kinda like a cute anthropomorphic character and you have convinced yourself it’s alive, probably because you watch too many Disney movies about talking animals. Fetuses are cuter to you than tadpoles so you think they’re alive. But they aren’t.

Some say never some say partial-birth abortion is just fine. Yet we do it.

“Some say” isn’t an argument. Some also say that we shouldn’t prosecute child-molester priests or that condoms should not be used to prevent the spread of AIDS in Africa; that doesn’t mean it’s OK.

And you think the ancients who stoned were horrible? So how are we any different?

Far fewer state-sanctioned executions than 5,000 years ago, far fewer animal sacrifices to please the nose of the LORD, etc. etc. I agree, we are still not perfect, but much much much better.

The remaining flaws in our society’s laws stem from clinging to the Abrahamic religions. Eye for an eye, etc. When we drop them we will take another step forward.

Yes, if the human being is a serial killer why is it wrong?

“I have. Doesn’t change the point, if the fetus is past a certain time in the pregnancy then it’s wrong.”

Well that is the key question is it not? This “certain time” is the question. Hardly a Kleenex full of snot as you so crudely call this life in formation. I don’t think your snot is on the same path. Some say never some say partial-birth abortion is just fine. Yet we do it.

And you think the ancients who stoned were horrible? So how are we any different? We kill babies while in birth because the government says it is OK, not God.

Do you really have to ask why it’s wrong to kill another human being?

And if you believe that why are you not outraged at secular society for electrocuting and gassing law offenders? That is happening today, not 6000 years ago.

I am against any form of the death penalty in any kind of society, secular or non-secular.

“It’s just a bundle of cells, no more alive than a Kleenex full of ejaculate.”
Have you ever witnessed a video of a baby being aborted? Probably not, they don’t let those out to keep the masses ignorant. I challenge you to get a hold of one to be honest in your opinion. You probably will not, but you have been challenged. Your answer is in complete ignorance.

I have. Doesn’t change the point, if the fetus is past a certain time in the pregnancy then it’s wrong. Otherwise it’s not.

“So is electrocution, hanging, and any other form of death penalty.”

Why? And if you believe that why are you not outraged at secular society for electrocuting and gassing law offenders? That is happening today, not 6000 years ago.

“Many theists I talk to don’t even care about the fetus’s well-being, they only want to punish young girls”

Yeah, sure you do. What a load of ignorant stupidity. Many atheist I talk to don’t care about any human being only themselves. See how easy it is just to make up a claim?

“It’s just a bundle of cells, no more alive than a Kleenex full of ejaculate.”

Have you ever witnessed a video of a baby being aborted? Probably not, they don’t let those out to keep the masses ignorant. I challenge you to get a hold of one to be honest in your opinion. You probably will not, but you have been challenged. Your answer is in complete ignorance.

Phew! That’s a relief, I thought you were going to say that stoning is sometimes OK and sometimes not. I agree with you, stoning is always wrong. So is electrocution, hanging, and any other form of death penalty. So I am glad we agree that all forms of state-sanctioned killing are wrong.

Next follow-up question: if the barbaric condition of society dictated burnings and stonings as punishment, why did God choose to condone this in the Old Testament?

I can see a few possible answers:

1) God liked stonings and burnings, but then changed his mind. (But that makes God fallible — and immoral, at least at some point, till he corrected himself — so it seems like that would be wrong, at least if we accept the idea of God as the ultimate and infallible arbiter of morality.)

2) God knew stonings and burnings were immoral, but he gave the people the laws they wanted. (But that invalidates the whole point of the Bible… why use it as a moral code if God’s laws are gonna shift and slide around to conform with the laws of men?)

3) God STILL likes stonings and burnings and all the other old laws, but the New Testament which provides a do-over on those laws is wrong (Jewish POV — more or less).

4) The Bible was made up by men, and they imposed their own barbaric beliefs on God based on the society at the time of the writing. (Seems to make the most sense to me: Old Testament-Era society was barbaric and cruel; by 300 A.D. it had mellowed out considerably.)

Which do you think it is? Or is there another option or options I am missing?

We tend to judge the ancients as cruel and barbaric while we use the much more sophisticated methods of sucking a baby right out of the womb of a mother while calling it “pro-choice”. Most atheist are liberal and most atheist tend to believe it is a mother’s right. If mother is not sure, we attempt to talk into the procedure explaining to her how this baby will ruin HER life. Great!

I definitely don’t agree with any policy or advice that leads to more abortions. I think a goal of society should be to reduce the number of them that occur, by sex education, by birth control and by prophylactics. With enough education, I believe we can lower the number of desired abortions to a number that is near enough to zero to be negligible.

Unfortunately, most theists are against these preventative measures as fervently as they are against abortion, so this provides a stumbling block.

Many theists I talk to don’t even care about the fetus’s well-being, they only want to punish young girls who they perceive as sluts for having what they perceive as a promiscuous lifestyle. I don’t put you in that category, not knowing you, but I feel this is another stumbling block to rational debate on this issue.

How about you 3D? I disagree with sucking innocent children out of a mothers body is wrong past and present. Do you agree?

The general answer is “no”, because a fetus is not a child. It’s just a bundle of cells, no more alive than a Kleenex full of ejaculate. In other words, I object to the wording of your question, so it’s unanswerable.

The more specific answer would be, after the central nervous system is developed and functioning, yes, it’s wrong; because it’s possible that a fetus, though not an independent living thing, can feel pain after that point and it would be cruel.

Sorry for not giving a one-word answer, but it’s a complex issue and you framed it in a way that is unanswerable, as in “do you still beat your wife?!”.

I hope you can stay on topic with the original point despite this derailment into a hot-button issue, which I fear may have been your intention in mentioning abortion to begin with, but you deserved a straightforward answer to the question since you have been answering mine.

You do not make $2.13/hr and you know it. Whatever you make including tips that comes out below minimum wage, the company is required to subsidize to get you to minimum wage. That is rare in most restaurants. You usually end up making more than the minimum.

My son is a waiter so I understand your frustration with non-tippers, but I know folks who work jobs making minimum wage with NO chance to make more with tips. Tips are a privilege for a job well done but NOT a right.

“….lack of academic education, poor health care, poor to no sex education, etc. Only white-trash of the ilk one sees harassing women going into health clinics seem to believe women like getting pregnant and aborting fetuses. Of course, the biggest abortionist on the planet is your (imaginary) God. ”

So I see it’s been established you are an anti-white racist. All whites do not think like this. And YOU are the trash if you think so. Most of the time the teenage sluts you speak of do not abort their kids, they have one after another on purpose to bilk the government out of every dollar they can. I agree with you that abortion clinic patients have a right to not be harassed, but your hate is misplaced because probably just as many whites have abortions as nonwhites. STOP BRINGING RACE into it.

To all Pentecostals reading this who fit into the set I have mentioned above. It takes more than long hair, long skirts and speaking in so-called tongues to get to your so-called heaven. You people think you are better than the whole world and make me sick. If you can’t afford to leave a tip for a waitperson making $2.13 per hour, KEEP YOUR FAT ASS AT HOME AND COOK!!!